Thameslink Single Justice Procedure Notice

[Igor29]

Hi All,

I have found myself in an absolutely bizarre situation.

Today I have received a "Single Justice Procedure Notice" from Thameslink. And I am beside myself with worry.

A few weeks ago I received a “Notice of intention to Prosecute” letter from Thameslink, this is off the back of a Revenue Protection Officer (RPO) taking down my details because I travelled with an off-peak ticket during “apparently” peak times. I replied to this detailing the below - adding I was sorry for any misunderstanding and would pay any far and admin charges.

---
A bit on why I was doing this:

Returning to work after during the pandemic was very intermittent and ad-hoc. So I needed a different solution to buying weekly/monthly tickets. Initially I got a couple of daily tickets.

However, Thameslink also sells a carnet ticket – essentially a book of 5 tickets, valid for 3 months, where you physically write the date of travel. Perfect for pandemic travel. Carnet tickets, however are off-peak.

Also on the Thameslink website there is a statement saying the following.

"The morning peak is generally from when the first train of the day leaves to the last train arriving in London before 10:00am. In the evening it is generally between 16:30 and 19:01 for services leaving London."

I thought the statement was quite ambiguous so contacted Thameslink customer service on twitter, noting down the statement and the direct link asking “The way I read this means if I leave London any time before 16:30 I can use off-peak tickets. Is this correct?”

To which they replied “this is correct”

---

So I assumed travelling out of London in the mornings counted as off-peak. Considering I was sometimes all alone in a 12 carriage train, I didn’t think any more about it.

In addition to this, my ticket stated it was from "London Terminals" and I started my journey at another station - I honestly thought that London Terminals meant a station in London.

The RPO advised me that the advice from customer service was wrong and even conceded that due to me having evidence of this conversation, they wouldn’t even give me a penalty fare. They then gave me an option to buy a ticket or discuss my case with Thameslink. I stupidly thought "I did nothing wrong, so it should be straight forward to explain the situation". If only I had paid the £xx at the time...

Since then I’ve been buying daily tickets again and now even started using their smartcard (oyster like) to avoid anything like this happening again, but don't know what to do. It's nearly 3 am and I've been up all night fretting.

if someone could give me some advice I'd really appreciate it.

thank you very much!

 

[L401CJF]

Im not clued up on travelling in or out of London as the peak times seem quite confusing down there to me, and I'm very rarely down there - so I'm not really able to advise, but if you have screenshots of the twitter messages showing the incorrect advice that would probably help your defence.

One of the ticketing experts will be along with more helpful advice shortly, but in the meantime if you could advise where you boarded, where you alighted, and the arrival/departure times that should give them a good place to start.

 

[skyhigh]

In addition to this, my ticket stated it was from "London Terminals" and I started my journey at another station - I honestly thought that London Terminals meant a station in London.

I'm going to guess all the stuff about peak/off peak is irrelevant, and what they're actually interested in is this (assuming you travelled further than your ticket was valid).

What is the journey you made, and what ticket did you hold?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Let’s have a look at the worst that could happen: that is that you either plead guilty or are found guilty. That would mean that the court would be able to punish you.

The letter you have received probably says that the offence you have been charged with could mean going to prison. But while that may be the law, it’s not what actually happens. Both the sentencing guidelines that the magistrates have to follow and what we have seen here show that the punishment will be a fine - typically of half a week’s income. And on top of this there will be court costs, prosecution costs and compensation (the train fares that should have been paid).

So for the moment, the important point is that even at the worst you will not go to prison for having the wrong ticket. You could only go to prison if you were actually being chased through the courts for something else such as violence towards the railway staff.

A lot of people in your position also worry whether a conviction can lose them their job. There are some jobs that need you to have absolutely no criminal convictions - but these are very few and far between. You might have one of those jobs - but it’s more likely that you will have the embarrassment of having a criminal conviction but you will keep your job. If you are a member of a union where you work, ask them to tell you what the position is: if you’re not in a union, try to find your conditions of employment to see what they say, or think about whether there’s a reliable colleague who could let you know what the position is in confidence and without telling your employer.

None of the things I say here are good, and they are things to worry about. But the important point is that a conviction for not paying the right train fare is unlikely to be the end of the world. So hopefully you can relax a little and get some sleep instead of worrying!

 

[Haywain]

if someone could give me some advice I'd really appreciate it.

If your journey was from London Bridge to Luton or Hitchin, for example, a London Terminals ticket is not valid between London Bridge and St Pancras. If the journey was between St Pancras and Three Bridges the ticket was not valid between St Pancras and City Thameslink.

Peak times also apply in the mornings travelling away from London, generally before 0900. However, your question to Thameslink would not have suggested to me that you were referring to that time of day. So, it seems a case of getting an ambiguous answer to an ambiguous question.

My final point is that Thameslink also sold Peak Carnet tickets - they have now been withdrawn - and the at is what it seems you should have been using for the journey in question.

 

[miklcct]

Peak times also apply in the mornings travelling away from London, generally before 0900. However, your question to Thameslink would not have suggested to me that you were referring to that time of day. So, it seems a case of getting an ambiguous answer to an ambiguous question.

I can't see how anytime before 16:30 won't include the morning peak. If there really exists a morning restriction, the correct response will be "you can only use it after 09:30" (or the appropriate time).

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I can't see how anytime before 16:30 won't include the morning peak. If there really exists a morning restriction, the correct response will be "you can only use it after 09:30" (or the appropriate time).

It reads like the OP asked about off-peak journeys into London, so when talking about returning the Agent has clearly responded as if the OP is returning later that day (not possible to be during morning peak as they are traveling into London during off peak).

Honest mistake by both parties, it's why whenever a passenger asks me a question about train destinations or times I always ask a question to confirm details before I answer as most of the time what they initially ask doesn't give the correct answer.

 

[miklcct]

It reads like the OP asked about off-peak journeys into London, so when talking about returning the Agent has clearly responded as if the OP is returning later that day (not possible to be during morning peak as they are traveling into London during off peak).

Honest mistake by both parties, it's why whenever a passenger asks me a question about train destinations or times I always ask a question to confirm details before I answer as most of the time what they initially ask doesn't give the correct answer.

I thought the statement was quite ambiguous so contacted Thameslink customer service on twitter, noting down the statement and the direct link asking “The way I read this means if I leave London any time before 16:30 I can use off-peak tickets. Is this correct?”

To which they replied “this is correct”

---

As carnets are single and there is absolutely no indication that the OP was making a day trip from inside or outside London, I can't see any single word suggesting it's impossible to travel out of London in the morning peak.

I'm seeing the customer service messages from the official Twitter account as an unambiguous authority of travel here.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hopefully we'll hear back from @Igor29 (Welcome to the forum!) in due course to clarify what journey was being made, i.e. from where to where, the exact ticket held and fare paid, and the time of the day that they boarded the train in question. We should then be able to better advise.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We really need to know more information to be able to give advice:

What was the exact journey being made?
What time did you depart?
When did this happen?

Ordinarily someone travelling with a ticket that is correctly dated but only invalid because you are travelling at a barred time is liable for an excess fare, i.e. the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare for your journey.

 

[Igor29]

Hi All,

Thank you very much for your responses. Here's some of the details requested:

• This happened a couple of months ago.
• I had an off-peak carnet ticket London Terminals to Stevenage. I got in at Alexandra Palace before 8am, usually I depart from Finsbury Park.
• I now know Alexandra Palace is not a London Terminal - I stupidly assumed that any station in London was a London Terminal in addition this same train only 6 mins earlier does stop at a London Terminal. So this journey is actually a bit shorter than London Terminal to Stevenage.
• I also now know that Finsbury Park acts as a "London Terminal" for carnet tickets.
• I left in peak times - based on the info from customer service I thought leaving London was fine with this ticket at this time.

The issue definitely arose because of the ticket being off-peak. I explained the situation - being a bit confused about this and even showed the Inspector the actual conversation with customer service. She agreed that due to the conversation, she wouldn't even give me a penalty fare. So now I'm really worried how a misunderstanding like this could escalate this much.

I have read that some people have tried to contact Thameslink directly and had some success is settling this out of court. But I don't know what to do really and would really appreciate any advice. Hope the info helped understand the situation. My dad's a railway man and I grew up with trains and something like this has never happened to me...

 

[miklcct]

Your ticket is valid on the route, but not the time.

As you have the conversation with customer service and have already shown it to the inspector, I really think this can be seen as an authority despite your ticket not being valid at the time.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have read that some people have tried to contact Thameslink directly and had some success is settling this out of court. But I don't know what to do really and would really appreciate any advice. Hope the info helped understand the situation. My dad's a railway man and I grew up with trains and something like this has never happened to me...

This seems the pertinent question you need help with (assuming ticketing experts verify that you did in fact travel on the wrong ticket albeit by mistake and not helped by ambiguous advice - tho that can be mentioned in the letter you need to write to Thameslink. People here will help with the wording of this (see @Hadders regular advice in other threads).

So the SJPN has come despite your letter offering to try and settle?

It may help if you anonymise your personal details from the SJPN doc you have and post it here for people to see if you can, as well as their 1st letter and your reply to that if possible.

Seems to me that the help you need is:
a) to check if Thameslink staff are correct about the invalid nature of the ticket you held - and depending on that
b) how to respond to / contact Thameslink again to make the request to settle this mater without court action for the lowest sum possible

But basically you should probably now get to work drafting up another letter/e-mail for (b) which needs to be brief and to the point including:
- an apology
- state that you never had any intention of not paying the correct fare, not on that occasion or ever
- had sought to check it was correct ticket via customer services as per attached screen shot response (if you can include it as suggested)
- hope they can see that the situation arose due to genuine confusion
- you would like to pay any unpaid fare due without the matter having to be considered at court

and don't worry to the point of sleepless nights, plenty of help for you on this forum at every step of the way.

Feel free to post your draft for comment if you would like to.

All the best.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Hi All,

Thank you very much for your responses. Here's some of the details requested:

• This happened a couple of months ago.
• I had an off-peak carnet ticket London Terminals to Stevenage. I got in at Alexandra Palace before 8am, usually I depart from Finsbury Park.
• I now know Alexandra Palace is not a London Terminal - I stupidly assumed that any station in London was a London Terminal in addition this same train only 6 mins earlier does stop at a London Terminal. So this journey is actually a bit shorter than London Terminal to Stevenage.
• I also now know that Finsbury Park acts as a "London Terminal" for carnet tickets.
• I left in peak times - based on the info from customer service I thought leaving London was fine with this ticket at this time.

The issue definitely arose because of the ticket being off-peak. I explained the situation - being a bit confused about this and even showed the Inspector the actual conversation with customer service. She agreed that due to the conversation, she wouldn't even give me a penalty fare. So now I'm really worried how a misunderstanding like this could escalate this much.

I have read that some people have tried to contact Thameslink directly and had some success is settling this out of court. But I don't know what to do really and would really appreciate any advice. Hope the info helped understand the situation. My dad's a railway man and I grew up with trains and something like this has never happened to me...

Furthermore:

Apols as not wishing to seem rude but I for one don't find this easy to understand.

Could you rephrase eg like this

'on the day in question when i was stopped I had got the 07.xx train from Stevenage to Alexandra Palace using an off peak carnet ticket' or some such, I think all people need to know is what train you were on (approx time if you do not know exact time) and where / when you were questioned by the rail staff about your ticket. Where did you get on and where did you get off/intend to get off.

This is because to check my point (a) above it is necessary to understand exactly, or as close as you can recall, what journey you were doing. This is worth doing as we have had cases on here in recent past IIRC of Thameslink ticket inspection staff getting things quite notably wrong..... I am not saying that is the case here but it does need checking.

I have read your post several times and I can't work out the answer to this. It does not really matter what you usually do after all, it is what you were doing on the occasion you were stopped and questioned / had your ticket checked. I would also assume your ticket is valid to join and leave trains at stations between the furthest points on the ticket (ie between Stevenage and the defined London Terminals for the route) - so I suspect it is all about the validity of the time of use.

But I do fundamentally think you probably need to keep writing to them to ask to settle the matter as many cases on here seem to require 2 or 3 requests before the train company (or the organisation acting for them if this applies here) agree to this.

 

[Igor29]

Hi sorry about the confusion I was half writing here, half frantically scouring forums all over for answers.

Timeline:

• Incident happened mid Feb
• I received a "Notice of Intention to Prosecute" mid March
• I replied to this a few days later in a letter in which I covered your points, this included :
  • an apology
  • stated that I never had any intention of not paying the correct fare, not ever
  • had sought to check it was correct ticket via customer services as per attached screen shot response(I even included a transcript of the screenshot to make sure)
  • I said I'd be happy to pay and fare difference and administrative costs
  • That I am now using the Thameslink smartcard - to ensure this situation never happens again.
• The SJPN is the second correspondence I received form them. This came about 3 weeks after I sent in my letter. Now I am asking on how to proceed.
• I think my next step will be to call them and try to talk to them.

At 07:24 at Alexandra Palace I got on the train to Welwyn Garden City. Once getting to Welwyn Garden City there is a connecting train 5 mins later which would take me onto Stevenage. Here's a screenshot of the journey on another day. I was question on the first leg of this Journey just before Welwyn Garden City.

My ticket is a off-peak carnet ticket from "London Terminals" to "Stevenage". I understand that this ticket is not correct now and that there are actually two issues:

1. I journeyed during on-peak times with an off-peak ticket. (This was based on Customer Service advice)
2. Alexandra Palace is not a London Terminal - it is between London Terminals and Stevenage and the same train does indeed stop at multiple London Terminals before reaching Alexandra Palace. (This was due to my not understanding the distinction between London Terminals and London Stations)

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi sorry about the confusion I was half writing here, half frantically scouring forums all over for answers.

Timeline:

• Incident happened mid Feb
• I received a "Notice of Intention to Prosecute" mid March
• I replied to this a few days later in a letter in which I covered your points, this included :
  • an apology
  • stated that I never had any intention of not paying the correct fare, not ever
  • had sought to check it was correct ticket via customer services as per attached screen shot response(I even included a transcript of the screenshot to make sure)
  • I said I'd be happy to pay and fare difference and administrative costs
  • That I am now using the Thameslink smartcard - to ensure this situation never happens again.
• The SJPN is the second correspondence I received form them. This came about 3 weeks after I sent in my letter. Now I am asking on how to proceed.
• I think my next step will be to call them and try to talk to them.

At 07:24 at Alexandra Palace I got on the train to Welwyn Garden City. Once getting to Welwyn Garden City there is a connecting train 5 mins later which would take me onto Stevenage. Here's a screenshot of the journey on another day. I was question on the first leg of this Journey just before Welwyn Garden City.
View attachment 113068
My ticket is a off-peak carnet ticket from "London Terminals" to "Stevenage". I understand that this ticket is not correct now and that there are actually two issues:

1. I journeyed during on-peak times with an off-peak ticket. (This was based on Customer Service advice)
2. Alexandra Palace is not a London Terminal - it is between London Terminals and Stevenage and the same train does indeed stop at multiple London Terminals before reaching Alexandra Palace. (This was due to my not understanding the distinction between London Terminals and London Stations)

OK thanks - good of you to post more details - much clearer now.

I think/suspect this is your 'offence' : I journeyed during on-peak times with an off-peak ticket.

I don't think your misunderstanding about 'London Terminals' is relevant to your problem here, but there is some info here in case it is of help. Note the particular points ref Thameslink (as that is the most potentially confusing route since it does not terminate in the conventional sense of the word, in London, but as I say I don't think this is the reason they are seeking to prosecute you)

Travelling in London | National Rail

Whether you’re travelling to, from, or in and around London by train, we can help you find the best routes and prices for your journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

esp : "....The exception to this is where there are National Rail journey opportunities that include a choice of London Terminal stations on the Thameslink route between London Bridge, London Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and London St Pancras. For these journeys the London Terminal stations that you can use with a London Terminals ticket, will be determined by whether your journey will start / finish north or south of London as follows..."

Also - I am almost 100% sure (just have not checked) you can get off / join a train with this ticket at intermediate stations on the route of your ticket - so it would not be a ticket violation that you got on at Alexandra Palace.

• The SJPN is the second correspondence I received form them. This came about 3 weeks after I sent in my letter. Now I am asking on how to proceed.
• I think my next step will be to call them and try to talk to them.

OK - I think proceed with another letter/e-mail to the place you wrote to before (and may well be worth calling them as well) eg 'I was sorry to receive a SJPN after my last letter. I am writing again to respectfully ask if this matter can be settled without court action as I never had any intention not to pay my train fare correctly etc etc' reiterate even more briefly your apology etc as before and ask if the matter can be looked at again.

Probably also worth calling too as per your idea, just in case your previous letter got overlooked / never received or some such - but I would write again as really important to have written record of your efforts, esp if it does go to court and you try to settle 'on the day' at the court (and we can cross that bridge advice wise if it gets to that) - which is a thing we hear of happening with other cases so may remain an option.

Keep us posted, and keep an eye on this thread since quite likely to be other good advice posted over next few days from more experienced people than me!

 

[Igor29]

Great news - helpful update - thanks. I also think that is a reasonable sum they are asking for (tho of course v annoying for you to have to pay due to the oversight of the card being out of date)

I think going off advice of prev cases now this is now in the 'Court System' you need to be confident that when you make the payment it does actually stop the court case. I think others have advised on that before and may correct me or add to this but you probably need to get from GTR

- keep evidence that you have paid the sum being asked (£65 etc)
- written confirmation that GTR have dropped court case from GTR prosecutions team (eg along with receipt for the payment maybe)
- send copy of that to the court
- make sure court acknowledge it

to be 100% sure it does not go to court ' by mistake' and the 1st you hear about it is a court letter asking for your fine money....

As I say, others may be able to help on how to ensure this does not happen.

I will try to contact them with any luck, I might have a similar situation as seen in this thread

Taken to court because of lack of railcard

Hello, I hope someone can help me understand my situation. In November I travelled from new cross to Gatwick airport but didn’t realise that my railcard expired. I had bought a ticket with a 26-30 railcard discount. The discount was around £5. During the journey a ticket inspector asks for my...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

Alexandra Palace is not a London Terminal - it is between London Terminals and Stevenage and the same train does indeed stop at multiple London Terminals before reaching Alexandra Palace. (This was due to my not understanding the distinction between London Terminals and London Station

Your ticket would be valid for this journey if it had been a Peak ticket, as it is valid for break of journey.

 

[some bloke]

It may help if you anonymise your personal details from the SJPN doc you have and post it here for people to see if you can, as well as their 1st letter and your reply to that if possible.

Hi Igor - I'm sorry this has happened (in terms of how the experience has been so far - I'm not at all saying that there will be any serious consequences). It's important to relax enough and take care of yourself.

If you upload all the relevant correspondence/paperwork with identifying details removed, it may help people to help you better. There may be things people can spot which will be useful when you contact the company next.

Perhaps this Condition of Travel may be relevant, especially as the fact that they are using the single justice procedure seems to mean they are not alleging any intent to avoid a fare (again, if you upload, this will become clear).

National Rail Conditions of Travel:

"9.5 Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak”
Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are
travelling; or

9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using."

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/conditions-of-travel.aspx

I'm wondering if you chose not to pay the excess, rather than not to buy a new ticket. In any case, this and other questions might easily be answered if you upload the material.

 

[Igor29]

Your ticket would be valid for this journey if it had been a Peak ticket, as it is valid for break of journey.

See this makes sense to me - especially because there are London Terminals before hand on that very train. However, I feel like everything I've heard form Thameslink staff since then speaks against this... I think this is the main issue - the regulations are so confusing every single staff member interprets them differently - customers, especially a layman like me, have no hope - even if I tried to do the right thing and ask.

 

[WesternLancer]

See this makes sense to me - especially because there are London Terminals before hand on that very train. However, I feel like everything I've heard form Thameslink staff since then speaks against this... I think this is the main issue - the regulations are so confusing every single staff member interprets them differently - customers, especially a layman like me, have no hope - even if I tried to do the right thing and ask.

Yes, I agree - really frustrating. But that is probably best taken up with customer services later - even possibly as part of an argument for a refund of any penalty you now have to pay as a goodwill gesture - BUT your main focus now needs to be to avoid being taken to court I think. If it goes to court you will be found guilty and pay more - and I think I am correct to say there will not be an opportunity with this sort of offence to mount a defense along the lines that the rules are confusing (so confusing that some staff may not understand them either).

 

[island]

See this makes sense to me - especially because there are London Terminals before hand on that very train. However, I feel like everything I've heard form Thameslink staff since then speaks against this... I think this is the main issue - the regulations are so confusing every single staff member interprets them differently - customers, especially a layman like me, have no hope - even if I tried to do the right thing and ask.

With respect, there is nothing confusing about the rules for using your ticket – they are long, but very clear. One of them is that you can't use a train from Welwyn Garden City before 09:52, and you appear to have broken this.

Without seeing a full transcript of your conversation on Twitter I cannot draw any conclusions as to whether you were misinformed. Even if you were, it is not clear that this is a defence to a prosecution. And whilst it is usually possible to pay an excess fare to resolve an issue with an off-peak ticket being used at peak times, it sounds like you chose not to do that on the train, which is why we have got to where we are.

A Single Justice Procedure Notice is not to be ignored. You have been charged with a criminal offence and must act within 21 days, otherwise a magistrate can try the case without your input. It would greatly assist matters if you could specify what offence you are charged with – typically this will be something like "entering a rail vehicle for the purpose of travel without a valid ticket" or "travel on the railway without previously paying their fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof".

 

[some bloke]

The Single Justice Procedure is for minor offences. If the analysis at the link below is correct and still applies, then the SJP can't be used for the more serious allegation of intent to avoid a fare. It would mean someone receiving an SJPN won't normally end up going to court for the more serious offence.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...single-justice-procedure.172797/#post-3705270

In any case, if you post the alleged offence and exactly what they are saying you did to commit it (and other information you are willing to give as above) on here, that is likely to be helpful. In legal cases, details which seem small can matter.

 

[Hadders]

A Carnet Off Peak ticket from London Terminals to Stevenage carries restriction code CP which states:

nre.co.uk/cp

Not valid for travel on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before the times shown from the following stations:

• 08.57 from Cambridge
• 09:18 from Royston
• 09:30 from Letchworth Garden City
• 09:12 from Huntingdon
• 09:11 from St Neots
• 09:34 from Hitchin
• 09:40 from Stevenage
• 09:52 from Welwyn Garden City
• 09:29 from Hatfield (Hertfordshire)
• 09:40 from Potters Bar
• 09:17 from Hertford North
• 09:09 from Hertford East
• 09:02 from Bedford
• 09.22 from Leagrave
• 09:16 from Luton
• 09:19 from Luton Airport Parkway (but not valid on 09:31 East Midlands Trains service)
• 09.24 from Harpenden
• 09:30 from St Albans
• 09:30 from London Kings Cross
• 09:30 from Moorgate
• 09:30 from Old Street
• 09:30 from London St Pancras International
• 09:30 from Farringdon
• 09:30 from City Thameslink
• 09:30 from London Blackfriars
• 09:30 from London Bridge
• 09:30 from Elephant & Castle

Not valid on trains timed to depart London Kings Cross, London St Pancras International, Moorgate after 16:29 and before 19:02, regardless of where you join or leave the service.

Clearly it's not valid to depart the relevent London Terminals (Moorgate/Kings Cross/St Pancras) before 09:30 but interestingly there is no mention of Alexandra Palace in the list. The evening restrictions mention that it is not valid 'regardless of where you join or leave the service' but this wording is not included in the morning part of the restrictions, which could be read as though it is ok to join or leave at an unlisted intermediate station. The ticket is perfectly valid to start short at Alexandra Palace.

The OP had a Twitter exchange which appeared to introduce further ambiguity about the validity of ther ticket.

The NRCoT states that you are using a correctly dated ticket but is invalid then you should be charged an excess.

We know that GTR have previously mis-interpreted rules and threatened prosecution.

Other points to consider:

Was the carnet ticket correctly dated, in ink. We have had numerous threads about undated carnets in the past. There is no suggestion this was the case but we need to be certain.

Was an excess fare offered but refused? I believe this should have been £7.40 based on the pre-March prices (a Panalty Fare would have been £31.80. If an excess fare was refused then GTR are right to persue the case.

The initial reply the OP sent to GTR has not made the right impression and they are now prosecuting. We could do with seeing copies of all paperwork (with personal details redacted). The main task for the OP is to get the court proceedings dropped. I would write to GTR Prosecutions Department quoting the relevent section of the NRCoT and requesting that the prosecution be withdrawn. Offer to pay the excess fare as this is still outstanding. I would also copy this letter to the court as part of the reply to the Single Justice Procedure.

If the OP posts a draft of their letter in this thread I'm sure members will be happy to proof read.

 

[30907]

With respect, there is nothing confusing about the rules for using your ticket – they are long, but very clear. One of them is that you can't use a train from Welwyn Garden City before 09:52, and you appear to have broken this.

It is also possible that the restriction from Moorgate (0429-0930) applies to joining intermediately, though this is less clear from the text posted by Hadders.
The other factor not yet mentioned (AFAIK) is that this was a Carnet ticket - unless this was the very first time the OP had used one, the RPI might have suspected that they had done this before. (OP - no need to comment!)

 

[WesternLancer]

The main task for the OP is to get the court proceedings dropped. I would write to GTR Prosecutions Department quoting the relevent section of the NRCoT and requesting that the prosecution be withdrawn. Offer to pay the excess fare as this is still outstanding. I would also copy this letter to the court as part of the reply to the Single Justice Procedure.

Seems like v good advice - to @Igor29 if you want to have a stab at drafting such a letter/response to GTR then I am sure people here would help finesse it ref any technical language needed to make the point to them in appropriate terms ref this

 

[Igor29]

Hi All,

I have attached the following to this post (I tried redacting a PDF but some personal details are retained in the properties of the file)

• The redacted SJPN (3 pages)
• My reply to the Notice of Intention to Prosecute
• Screenshot of the conversation with costumer service

@Hadders yes carnet ticket was permanent ink, there's no issue there.
Regarding the excess fare or actual fare itself. The way the situation was explained to me by the inspector was that I'd receive correspondence from Thameslink and I could explain what happened. I understood this to mean that, if the excuse with evidence was not enough I could pay any costs then.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi All,

I have attached the following to this post (I tried redacting a PDF but some personal details are retained in the properties of the file)

• The redacted SJPN (3 pages)
• My reply to the Notice of Intention to Prosecute
• Screenshot of the conversation with costumer service

@Hadders yes carnet ticket was permanent ink, there's no issue there.
Regarding the excess fare or actual fare itself. The way the situation was explained to me by the inspector was that I'd receive correspondence from Thameslink and I could explain what happened. I understood this to mean that, if the excuse with evidence was not enough I could pay any costs then.

View attachment 113102View attachment 113104View attachment 113105View attachment 113106View attachment 113107

Thanks for posting that up.

Your reply to them seems perfectly reasonable to me (but there we are...) - it seems to me that at this stage you have either got to
a) write again re-iterating those sorts of points
or
b) compose the sort of message I quote in post #25 that @Hadders suggests in post #23 - which does seem a worthwhile approach to try

(you could perhaps write something that was a combination of the two)

 

[Igor29]

Hi I'll have a think about this. I'm actually not even sure they received my letter. I have no way of knowing. I will definitely call them first thing Tuesday to check this, as well as try to settle this OOC.

 

[John Palmer]

The breach of ticket validity rules giving rise to this prosecution cannot be the use of an off-peak ticket on a train departing Welwyn Garden City before 09:52 since, as the Charge Sheet states, the interview with the RPO took place at Hatfield and before arrival at WGC.

I don't find the rules for using the ticket at all clear. If the ticket used was subject to Restriction Code CP (was that in fact the case?) then the rules for that code are silent as to their application to trains departing Alexandra Palace. I imagine the prosecution case will be that the journey from Alexandra Palace to WGC was on the 07:03 departure from Moorgate, and as such was subject to the restriction because the period in which off-peak tickets will be invalid on Moorgate departures is specified in Restriction Code CP. But how is a passenger joining a train at an intermediate station to know that it comes within the scope of the CP restriction? Furthermore, as @Hadders points out, use of the qualification 'regardless of where you join or leave the service' in relation only to the evening restriction adds to the ambiguity in the wording of the morning restriction.

I note that the fare avoided is said to be £15.10. I should be interested to hear the price of the ticket the OP was offered by the RPO, and whether it exceeded the difference between the anytime fare for the journey and the fare the OP had already paid. Having regard to NRCoT Condition 9.5, a passenger from whom a greater sum was demanded than the amount of that excess would be justified in choosing the alternative offered by the RPO of taking the matter up with the TOC concerned. In any case, since the OP offered in initial correspondence with the TOC to pay the excess, I fail to understand why a bylaw prosecution has been undertaken. A bylaw prosecution in a case to which Condition 9.5 applies renders that Condition nugatory.

In any case it is unconscionable for a TOC to bring a prosecution based on the possible invalidity of the ticket after its own staff had answered the OP's enquiry about peak time restrictions in terms suggesting that the ticket held was valid.

 

[WesternLancer]

The breach of ticket validity rules giving rise to this prosecution cannot be the use of an off-peak ticket on a train departing Welwyn Garden City before 09:52 since, as the Charge Sheet states, the interview with the RPO took place at Hatfield and before arrival at WGC.

I don't find the rules for using the ticket at all clear. If the ticket used was subject to Restriction Code CP (was that in fact the case?) then the rules for that code are silent as to their application to trains departing Alexandra Palace. I imagine the prosecution case will be that the journey from Alexandra Palace to WGC was on the 07:03 departure from Moorgate, and as such was subject to the restriction because the period in which off-peak tickets will be invalid on Moorgate departures is specified in Restriction Code CP. But how is a passenger joining a train at an intermediate station to know that it comes within the scope of the CP restriction? Furthermore, as @Hadders points out, use of the qualification 'regardless of where you join or leave the service' in relation only to the evening restriction adds to the ambiguity in the wording of the morning restriction.

I note that the fare avoided is said to be £15.10. I should be interested to hear the price of the ticket the OP was offered by the RPO, and whether it exceeded the difference between the anytime fare for the journey and the fare the OP had already paid. Having regard to NRCoT Condition 9.5, a passenger from whom a greater sum was demanded than the amount of that excess would be justified in choosing the alternative offered by the RPO of taking the matter up with the TOC concerned. In any case, since the OP offered in initial correspondence with the TOC to pay the excess, I fail to understand why a bylaw prosecution has been undertaken. A bylaw prosecution in a case to which Condition 9.5 applies renders that Condition nugatory.

In any case it is unconscionable for a TOC to bring a prosecution based on the possible invalidity of the ticket after its own staff had answered the OP's enquiry about peak time restrictions in terms suggesting that the ticket held was valid.

So would your advice be to the OP (given they are expecting to speak to GTR on tuesday) that they should, in that conversation, ask why they were not given the opportunity to pay the excess fare owed?

The problem I am always mindful of is that once you need to make a fairly complex argument over these sorts of issues, unless you are prepared to engage a solicitor - far too much 'power' lies with the railway - and for the avg citizen making these sorts of arguments in a magistrates court hearing, without skilled assistance, is a tall order to say the least.