London Buses Discussion

[londonteacher]

LOTS (www.LOTS.org.uk) reports that route 15 is being partially converted to LT; if this number of LTs are not currently being used, why isn't the whole route being converted? Maybe the buses currently being used are not at the end of their lease, or the cost of returning these buses early to their lessor may be too high.

It already is fully allocated to LTs and has been for years.

 

[Snow1964]

LOTS (www.LOTS.org.uk) reports that route 15 is being partially converted to LT; if this number of LTs are not currently being used, why isn't the whole route being converted? Maybe the buses currently being used are not at the end of their lease, or the cost of returning these buses early to their lessor may be too high.

Route 5 (not 15)

 

[Robertj21a]

LOTS (www.LOTS.org.uk) reports that route 15 is being partially converted to LT; if this number of LTs are not currently being used, why isn't the whole route being converted? Maybe the buses currently being used are not at the end of their lease, or the cost of returning these buses early to their lessor may be too high.

What lessor ?

I thought they were all owned by TfL.

 

[Deerfold]

What lessor ?

I thought they were all owned by TfL.

I'm assuming they mean buses that are not being replaced by LTs. All the LTs are owned by TfL.

 

[busesrusuk]

LOTS (www.LOTS.org.uk) reports that route 15 is being partially converted to LT; if this number of LTs are not currently being used, why isn't the whole route being converted? Maybe the buses currently being used are not at the end of their lease, or the cost of returning these buses early to their lessor may be too high.

Route 15 is already operated by LT's and has been since the contract moved from Stagecoach to Go Ahead a couple of years ago. It is route 5 that is being partially converted to LT. The buses for route 5 are coming from the reduction of route 12 the other weekend - there not being enough thrown up spare from the 12 reduction to convert the whole of the 5.

 

[MotCO]

I'm assuming they mean buses that are not being replaced by LTs. All the LTs are owned by TfL.

Indeed. It is the E400s and Volvos etc I was referrng to going off lease, not the LTs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Route 15 is already operated by LT's and has been since the contract moved from Stagecoach to Go Ahead a couple of years ago. It is route 5 that is being partially converted to LT. The buses for route 5 are coming from the reduction of route 12 the other weekend - there not being enough thrown up spare from the 12 reduction to convert the whole of the 5.

Indeed. I was confused since some of the buses for the 5 come off the N15.

 

[Snow1964]

Last Saturday 111 passed to Abellio. About two thirds of the TfL owned LTs transferred. RATP kept some. The 111 is due to get Wrightbus Electroliners (expected to enter service October-November). Abellio seem to have moved some spare hybrid buses onto 415 to release some LTs for 111

LOTS Home Page

www.lots.org.uk

RATP now operates just 3 LT routes (9, 148, 211), but the 148 is using many of route 49 new electric buses (they were awaiting kerb changes in Sydney Place, which I think is now done). In meantime many LTs are on H91.

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

Some of the bus route changes in SE London are imminent (expected 14th May just ahead of Elizabeth line opening) and new stop signs for 472 have been put up. TfL are not yet advertising any Elizabeth line bus changes yet (probably mix of election purdah and formally announcing start of line

Bus route extension for Crossrail imminent as bus stop changes appear - Murky Depths

New signs have appeared for the 472 bus which is set to extend to Abbey Wood to provide a new link from Thamesmead to the station

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

Abellio’s new Switch Metrocity seem to be arriving for route 322 (link is photo of fleet number 1004), not my photo

2DB3529F-2590-4695-A587-312092FD9F95.JPG

drive.google.com

It is reported changes (frequency cuts or route shortening) are due to be made in Marble Arch - Oxford Street area from 21st May. But nothing officially published (probably due to election purdah), I am including the link which will be updated (probably Friday afternoon after election)

Bus changes

Permanent changes to TfL bus routes including new routes and changes to first and last stops.

tfl.gov.uk

EDIT the above link has been updated this morning in connection with Elizabeth line opening and associated bus changes

South East London bus improvements - 14 May 2022​

Routes Affected: 129, 180, 244, 469, 472 and B11

From Saturday 14 May we will be making some changes to bus routes in the South East London area.

Route 129 will be extended from its current terminus in Greenwich Town Centre to Lewisham Shopping Centre via Greenwich High Road, Greenwich South Street and Lewisham Road replacing route 180 over this section of route. Route 129 will run every 12 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 20 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

Route 180 will be changed to run between North Greenwich Bus Station and Erith Quarry. Buses will be rerouted at Charlton Station to run to North Greenwich via Anchor & Hope Lane, Bugsby's Way, Millennium Leisure Park, Southern Way and West Parkside. Route 180 will also be extended from Mulberry Way in the Belvedere Industrial Area via Church Manorway, Lower Road and West Street to Erith Town Centre and then via Bexley Road and Fraser Road to terminate at the entrance to the Erith Quarry housing development. Route 180 will no longer run between Charlton Station and Lewisham Town Centre. For Greenwich Town Centre change at Stone Lake Retail Park to route 177. For Lewisham Town Centre change at Millennium Leisure Park to route 129. Route 180 will also no longer serve Fishers Way or Crabtree Manorway in Belvedere. Route 180 will run every 10 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 15 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

Route 244 will serve the new bus stop on Gayton Road on journeys towards Queen Elizabeth Hospital from first bus on Saturday 14 May.

Route 469 will be rerouted between Abbey Wood Station and Belvedere Station via New Road, Woolwich Road and Picardy Road. Abbey Road and Gilbert Road will no longer served with route 229 continuing to provide a service along these roads. Route 469 will run every 15 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 20 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

24-hour route 472 will be changed to run between North Greenwich Bus Station and Abbey Wood Station. Route 472 will be extended from Cannon Retail Park in Thamesmead to Abbey Wood Station via Central Way, Crossway, Carlyle Road and Harrow Manorway with buses starting and finishing on Gayton Road. Bentham Road in Thamesmead will no longer be served however routes 244 and 301 will continue to provide a service along this road. Route 472 will also be rerouted between Plumstead Bus Garage and Central Way via Western Way and Belmarsh Prison. Nathan Way and Eastern Way will no longer be served by route 472 but route 301 will continue to serve these roads providing a link to both Thamesmead and Woolwich. Route 472 will run every 8 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Fridays, every 10 minutes during the evenings on Monday to Fridays and all day on Saturdays, every 12 minutes throughout the day on Sundays and every 30 minutes between 0100 and 0400 on all nights of the week.

Route B11 will be revised to run between Bexleyheath Bus Garage and South Thamesmead, Yarnton Way / Harrow Manorway only.

Route 401 will continue to provide a service from Yarnton Way to Thamesmead. Route B11 will run every 20 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 30 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

Newham area bus improvements - 21 May 2022​

Routes Affected: 101, 104, 241, 262, 300, 304, 330, 376 and 474
From Saturday 21 May we will be making some changes to bus routes in the Newham area.
Route 101 will be revised to run between Wanstead Station and Beckton Bus Station only. Route 262 will continue to provide a service between Beckton Bus Station and Gallions Reach Shopping Park. Route 101 will run every 12 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 15 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

Route 104 will be changed to run between Stratford Bus Station and Beckton Bus Station. Buses will be rerouted at Lonsdale Avenue via High Street South and Woolwich Manor Way to Beckton Bus Station. New route 304 will replace route 104 between Lonsdale Avenue and Manor Park Station. Route 104 will run every 8 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 12 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

Route 241 will be changed to run between Stratford City Bus Station and Prince Regent Bus Station. Buses will be rerouted at Custom House Station via Victoria Dock Road to Prince Regent Bus Station. Revised route 474 will replace route 241 between Custom House Station and Canning Town, Barking Road. Route 241 will run every 10 minutes during the AM & PM peaks on Monday to Fridays and during the daytime on Saturdays, every 12 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Fridays and every 20 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays. Route 241 will be extended to the Royal Wharf development once road layout changes have been successfully completed by the developer Ballymore.

Route 262 will be revised to run between Stratford Bus Station and Gallions Reach Shopping Park only. Route 366 will continue to provide a service between East Beckton Sainsbury's and Gallions Reach Shopping Park. Route 262 will run every 11 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 15 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

Route 300 will be rerouted between Beckton District Park and the junction of Barking Road and New Barn Street in Plaistow. Route 300 will be rerouted via Tollgate Road, Prince Regent Lane, Victoria Dock Road, Custom House Station, Freemasons Road and New Barn Street to Barking Road. Stansfeld Road and Prince Regent Bus Station will no longer be served along with Prince Regent Lane between Tollgate Road and Barking Road and Barking Road between Prince Regent Lane and New Barn Street. Route 300 will also serve bus stops on Prince Regent Lane between Tollgate Road and Victoria Dock Road in the opposite direction to now. This means if you use the northbound stops for route 300 towards Canning Town you will now need to use the southbound bus stops instead on the opposite side of the road with buses towards East Ham now serving the northbound bus stops instead. Route 300 will run every 15 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 20 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

New route 304 will be introduced running between Manor Park Station and Custom House Station running every 12 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 15 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays. Route 304 will replace current route 104 between Manor Park Station and Lonsdale Avenue before going to Custom House Station via Boundary Lane, Newham University Hospital, Glen Road, Prince Regent Lane, and Victoria Dock Road. First buses depart Custom House Station at 0430 (0525 Sundays) and Manor Park Station at 0455 (0545 Sundays) with last buses at 0100 from both ends of the route. Route 304 will be operated by Go Ahead London using double deck buses.
Route 330 will be extended from its current terminus at Canning Town Bus Station to Pontoon Dock / Thames Barrier Park via Silvertown Way, West Silvertown DLR Station and North Woolwich Road replacing route 474 over this section of route. Route 330 will run every 12 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 20 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays.

Route 376 will have a new timetable from this date. Buses will be revised to run every 12 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays, every 20 minutes during the evenings on Monday to Saturdays and every 30 minutes all day long on Sundays. First buses on Sundays will be earlier departing East Ham, Newham Town Hall at 0620 and from Beckton Bus Station at 0625.

24-hour route 474 will be rerouted between Connaught Bridge and Canning Town Bus Station. Route 474 will now run via Prince Regent Bus Station, Victoria Dock Road, Custom House Station, Munday Road, Radland Road (towards Canning Town) or Appleby Road (towards Manor Park), Tarling Road, Jude Street and Silvertown Way to Canning Town Bus Station. Route 474 will no longer serve West Silvertown DLR Station, North Woolwich Road or Pontoon Dock DLR Station, route 330 will provide a service over this section instead between 0515 (0615 on Sundays) and 0030 only. Route 474 will run every 12 minutes during the daytime on Monday to Saturdays and every 15 minutes during the evenings and all day on Sundays. Route 474 will also continue to run every 30 minutes on all nights of the week.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I still stand by my opinion that the 180 changes are beyond insane and pointless.

The fact that TfL believes that those from Woolwich, Thamesmead and Erith will still flock to North Greenwich to board a packed Jubilee line train when the Crossrail is on their doorstep is ludicrous.

All they’ve done is reduce capacity to Greenwich while over bussing North Greenwich from Woolwich.

The 180 is basically now another 472.

 

[Mikey C]

I still stand by my opinion that the 180 changes are beyond insane and pointless.

The fact that TfL believes that those from Woolwich, Thamesmead and Erith will still flock to North Greenwich to board a packed Jubilee line train when the Crossrail is on their doorstep is ludicrous.

All they’ve done is reduce capacity to Greenwich while over bussing North Greenwich from Woolwich.

The 180 is basically now another 472.

Millennium Leisure Park will also be massively over served as well. Clearly TfL think more people will want to go to Ikea than Greenwich or Lewisham

 

[NorthKent1989]

Millennium Leisure Park will also be massively over served as well. Clearly TfL think more people will want to go to Ikea than Greenwich or Lewisham

It’s totally bizarre and now Plumstead and Woolwich will be left with only one direct link to Greenwich town centre.

 

[danielcanning]

There were plans to cut the 427 back to Southall, is this plan still going ahead?

 

[Snow1964]

Seems the I-bus contract with Trapeze which was due to expire this month (having previously been extended by 7 years in 2015) is being extended again to May 2025, with options to May 2027.

This appears to be because the replacement system I-bus 2 which went out to tender just over year ago with estimated value of £395,000,000 hasn’t happened yet due to TfL’s financial squeeze.

The tender was 2 suppliers of sets of equipment for about 4500 buses each for 21.5 years estimated at £105,000,000 each, and back office systems estimated at £185,000,000

So sounds like I-bus 2 rollout is delayed by at least 3 years

Delays in a new procurement have led London Bus Services (LBSL) to extend its contract with Trapeze ITS for a communications and information system up to five more years.

Under a £62 million deal the Swiss based company will continue to operate the iBus automatic vehicle location system, which was due to expire this month, until at least May 2025 with options to extend until May 2027.

This comes in response to the procurement of a next generation system, iBus2, taking much longer than foreseen. The procurement is still ongoing with the tender notice, which values the replacement at £395 million, having been published in April of last year.

According to the notice for the existing contract extension, the terms have recently been agreed and are subject to approval by the governance activities of LBSL and its parent organisation Transport for London (TfL). It has been awarded without a competitive tender with the aim of keeping down costs and ensuring an orderly and low risk transition to the next generation system.

The notice says it would not be feasible for TfL to extend the contract for just one of the two lots - for on-bus and back office systems - and find a short term supplier for the other as it would create a need for a solution to enable any incoming supplier to interface their systems with those of Trapeze. There are concerns around interoperability and value for money.

Specification for ITxTP​

The tender for the replacement specifies that iBus2 should enable the introduction of assets that are compliant with the ITxTP open architecture for interoperability and data accessibility, along with networking, voice, data and video technologies.

TfL has for several years placed a premium on the provision of APIs to enable app developers to use real time information feeds on the location of its buses.

The first contract for iBus was awarded to Siemens in 2005, then novated to Trapeze in 2009. In 2015 it was extended for seven years.

London Bus Services extend iBus deal with Trapeze ITS | UKAuthority

www.ukauthority.com

 

[Deerfold]

Seems the I-bus contract with Trapeze which was due to expire this month (having previously been extended by 7 years in 2015) is being extended again to May 2025, with options to May 2027.

This appears to be because the replacement system I-bus 2 which went out to tender just over year ago with estimated value of £395,000,000 hasn’t happened yet due to TfL’s financial squeeze.

The tender was 2 suppliers of sets of equipment for about 4500 buses each for 21.5 years estimated at £105,000,000 each, and back office systems estimated at £185,000,000

So sounds like I-bus 2 rollout is delayed by at least 3 years

London Bus Services extend iBus deal with Trapeze ITS | UKAuthority

www.ukauthority.com

It surprises me that it's taking so long to integrate iBus and other systems. They had a demonstration system working nearly 10 years ago - perhaps the DfT system has changed specification or Trapeze wanted too much to integrate it with their systems.

 

[richardcoughla]

Arriva London North HV334 was stolen on Sunday night/Monday morning and taken for a joyride

 

[Mikey C]

Arriva London North North HV334 was stolen on Sunday night/Monday morning and taken for a joyride

Shocking pictures show bus SMASHED after thug crashed after 3-mile joy ride

A THUG stole a double-decker bus and caused more than £200k worth of damage as he went on a three-mile joy-ride before crashing it. The thief nicked the bus after seeing the keys had been left in t…

www.thesun.co.uk

Just after midnight today the man went into the Tottenham Bus Garage in north London and asked staff if he could drive one of the buses.
He was a maniac, he came in asking if he could drive a bus, and we all told him he couldn’t
After being told he couldn’t, he then was spotted wandering around the garage, and one driver said he ran onto a bus that had the keys in the ignition and had just arrived back at the station.
He then locked the doors, and foolishly reversed it into the wall outside of Holy Trinity Church.
According to witnesses he then sped around London, ploughing into parked cars, before eventually being stopped by police over three miles away in Palmers Green.

A really scary story when you consider what a threat he was to other late night road users and pedestrians

 

[richardcoughla]

Shocking pictures show bus SMASHED after thug crashed after 3-mile joy ride

A THUG stole a double-decker bus and caused more than £200k worth of damage as he went on a three-mile joy-ride before crashing it. The thief nicked the bus after seeing the keys had been left in t…

www.thesun.co.uk

A really scary story when you consider what a threat he was to other late night road users and pedestrians

This isn't the first time something like this happened a man stole a DLA from Garston!

 

[NorthKent1989]

So went ahead the SE London CrossRail changes on Saturday, next up the East and West London changes.

Did a trip on the 177 from Greenwich to Woolwich today around midday and was noticeably more packed than usual, now the 180 is no longer there to assist it.

Noticed that the 472 was much busier than the 180 to North Greenwich as well, I largely suspect people from Erith will use the 180 to Abbey Wood for CrossRail then will pick up passengers again at Woolwich as they would do for a 472 anyway, the 180 no longer seems like a distinct route but more of a 472A

 

[Busaholic]

the 180 no longer seems like a distinct route but more of a 472A

A for anomaly? I'd number it 180U, for unnecessary or, more frankly, useless.

 

[NorthKent1989]

A for anomaly? I'd number it 180U, for unnecessary or, more frankly, useless.

Yep! Quite agreed for 180U, some people have already judged the 180 being packed on Saturday was a sign that it was a success, you have to give it a few months before we can judge on whether something is a success, Crossrail hasn’t even opened yet.

 

[Mikey C]

Waiting for a 292 yesterday in Borehamwood, I was reminded of the closed thread about TfL stops outside of London, and indeed the situation in Herts where the bus stops are all Herts ones, even when only TfL services use them.

TfL bus stops outside of London

I think that the issue re the 402 is that the boundary between the GLC area and Sevenoaks Borough Council is at Knockholt, and therefore paper Travelcards are valid up to this boundary; I assume that all 'approved' routes within the GLC area should accept paper Travelcards - does the 477 accept...

www.railforums.co.uk

Indeed it's quite an odd situation, for as well as connecting people to Edgware station, the 292 in Borehamwood operates very much as a local bus route, designed to take people from the suburbs of Borehamwood to the centre (terminating on the far edge of town in a housing estate) yet the bus stop information really downplays that it is a TfL route, without even a roundel, and with Metroline getting much more prominence!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Waiting for a 292 yesterday in Borehamwood, I was reminded of the closed thread about TfL stops outside of London, and indeed the situation in Herts where the bus stops are all Herts ones, even when only TfL services use them.

TfL bus stops outside of London

I think that the issue re the 402 is that the boundary between the GLC area and Sevenoaks Borough Council is at Knockholt, and therefore paper Travelcards are valid up to this boundary; I assume that all 'approved' routes within the GLC area should accept paper Travelcards - does the 477 accept...

www.railforums.co.uk

Indeed it's quite an odd situation, for as well as connecting people to Edgware station, the 292 in Borehamwood operates very much as a local bus route, designed to take people from the suburbs of Borehamwood to the centre (terminating on the far edge of town in a housing estate) yet the bus stop information really downplays that it is a TfL route, without even a roundel, and with Metroline getting much more prominence!
View attachment 114778

I find its the same in Surrey. Bus stops in Epsom are County Council ones, even though its mainly TfL serving them. With SCC printed timetables.
Possibly because TfL are so useless at providing information these days

 

[Busoccultation]

I find its the same in Surrey. Bus stops in Epsom are County Council ones, even though its mainly TfL serving them. With SCC printed timetables.
Possibly because TfL are so useless at providing information these days

If it's a TfL branded bus stop pole, then it is TfL's responsibility of maintaining that stop and will have a standard TfL timetable even outside of the Greater London boundary.

For Surrey, there is a mixture of TfL stop poles and Surrey County Council poles on stops served by a TfL route, SCC poles and timetables on TfL routes are generally used by major stops within a town centre such as Staines, Epsom and Redhill.

All the stops in Hertfordshire (like that stop on the 292 in Borehamwood mentioned above) are Intalink branded and do have Intalink style timetables even at stops that are exclusively served TfL routes.

 

[MotCO]

Route One has reported that Tower Transit has placed an order for 12 9.4m Switch Metrocities for route 339. They are expected in Q1 2023.

Tower Transit to become first customer for updated 9.4m Metrocity

The fleet will be deployed on Route 339 operating out of Lea Interchange and running between Shadwell and Leytonstone

www.route-one.net

Tower Transit will be the first customer for the updated 9.4m Metrocity, with delivery expected in Q1 2023. The fleet will be deployed on Route 339 operating out of Lea Interchange and running between Shadwell and Leytonstone. It represents the first full electric vehicle Route run out of Lea Interchange.

The Metrocity battery-electric bus combines a 250kw/h NMC battery with a lightweight monocoque platform, providing a claimed range of up to 180 miles with a charging time below three hours.

“Switch is proud to supply the most efficient electric buses in the UK and we are delighted to be working with Tower Transit to electrify Route 339,” says Andy Palmer, Executive Vice Chairman and CEO of Switch Mobility. “Our Metrocity product is perfectly suited to the requirements of London’s roads and passengers on this route will soon be able to travel knowing that their journey will be carbon neutral, supporting a greener planet.”

 

[calcium]

Last Saturday 111 passed to Abellio. About two thirds of the TfL owned LTs transferred. RATP kept some. The 111 is due to get Wrightbus Electroliners (expected to enter service October-November). Abellio seem to have moved some spare hybrid buses onto 415 to release some LTs for 111

This is very awesome and thanks very much for sharing the info, but where do you get this information from?

 

[GusB]

This is very awesome and thanks very much for sharing the info, but where do you get this information from?

The links to the information sources are included in the post that you replied to!

 

[calcium]

The links to the information sources are included in the post that you replied to!

Where on the lots website do you find that information? Do you buy a magazine or something

 

[GusB]

Where on the lots website do you find that information? Do you buy a magazine or something

You're asking the wrong person, really. However, the "News" link on the left-hand menu is where most of the information comes from.

Unfortunately the lots.org.uk website does not permit linking to individual pages, which is frustrating.

 

[duncombec]

Where on the lots website do you find that information? Do you buy a magazine or something

As @GusB says, the "News" tab on the left-hand side, and scroll down until the dated items.

Note that LOTS is primarily a membership organisation, and these web news items are an "extra service". They are only there for a month or so, and are often wiped shortly after the paper edition is in the post - mine arrived today - so you may not find older items are still there.

 

[Mike99]

This is very awesome and thanks very much for sharing the info, but where do you get this information from?

On a similar vein for gleaning information, if you don't already use it,
have a look at Robert Munster's fantastic site 'London Bus Routes', there is a massive amount of info on there.

London Bus Routes

 

[richardcoughla]

A major fire has broken out at Potters Bar garage today

Buses on fire after 'huge explosion' at London transport depot

One eyewitness heard an 'unbelievable noise that sounded like a jet'.

metro.co.uk