Post Covid Passenger Rebound

[43066]

Elon Musk?

My understanding is that long distance peak Anytimes are unregulated and therefore set by the TOC. Happy to be told I am wrong.

My understanding is that peak local fares are regulated.

Peak commuter fares in the north would be fine except northern pulled some sneaky moves with raising fares by stealth by altering ticket validity. In the SE they are too high and I think will have to come down if they don’t want to be carting fresh air. So that one is a DfT decision.

However in terms of multiples of off peak fares, it is the long distance ones that are the clear winners for stupidity and my understanding is that TOCs in franchise days could have reduce those had they wished. They didn’t, now hardly anybody is willing to be ransomed anymore and so the DfT will need to decide whether to be stupid or sensible in its new found role micromanaging the railway, an operational entity its civil servants have absolutely no clue or experience of how to run as their inability to even choose a seat and a bit if fabric testifies. As I have said before, there is great danger in this period before botched GBR arrives. The RMT is going to put lots of discretionary passengers off using the service having failed to wake up to the fact they can’t ransom on the basis of shutting down commuter flows any more. We are already seeing that all over the place. Meanwhile the Tories will continue their usual arrogant we know best micromanaging and cause great damage. Why anybody voted for this shambles and expected anything else as a result is beyond me.

I actually agree with a fair bit of that.

The point really is that the market which has been hit is both long and shorter distance regular commuting - ie anytime (peak) tickets and season tickets - which tend to be regulated hence TOCs cannot control these.

I haven’t checked to see whether there are long distance peak tickets which are unregulated but, if there are, they will be a relatively small part of the overall picture. More could be done here - for example there still aren’t properly flexible season tickets - that’s entirely down to the DfT.

Off peak and weekend leisure travel there’s more discretion over but, as we keep hearing, that is now 100% or better than pre Covid in many cases so if anything there may be more scope to increase prices here (depending on price elasticity, eg. London to Brighton over a sunny bank holiday weekend or for Pride will be a lot less price elastic than other leisure journeys).

I must say the continuing “fresh air” comments on here do raise a smile. Having just stepped off a packed Thameslink train and walked through a thronging London Bridge to board an equally full and standing SE Metro train, I’d disagree that the fares are too high. Demand has massively stepped up over the last few weeks.

 

[modernrail]

I actually agree with a fair bit of that.

The point really is that the market which has been hit is both long and shorter distance regular commuting - ie anytime (peak) tickets and season tickets - which tend to be regulated hence TOCs cannot control these.

I haven’t checked to see whether there are long distance peak tickets which are unregulated but, if there are, they will be a relatively small part of the overall picture. More could be done here - for example there still aren’t properly flexible season tickets - that’s entirely down to the DfT.

Off peak and weekend leisure travel there’s more discretion over but, as we keep hearing, that is now 100% or better than pre Covid in many cases so if anything there may be more scope to increase prices here (depending on price elasticity, eg. London to Brighton over a sunny bank holiday weekend or for Pride will be a lot less price elastic than other leisure journeys).

I must say the continuing “fresh air” comments on here do raise a smile. Having just stepped off a packed Thameslink train and walked through a thronging London Bridge to board an equally full and standing SE Metro train, I’d disagree that the fares are too high. Demand has massively stepped up over the last few weeks.

On my fresh air comments, to be clear and I think I added the caveat somewhere that the only fresh air risk I see (and still not certain to transpire) is long distance peak and medium distance/outer SE peak, especially SWT.

Every London metro train I have been on has been packed as well. London is full of people without cars or who don’t want to use them and so the metro services function as the lifeblood of the system, especially in the tubeless south.

I think the jury is still out on outer SE peak. With so many people with covid and other bugs I am actually surprised how busy things are in general and so reckon they could get busier.

Long distance peak I am personally prepared to declare now is a fresh air risk unless fares come down.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of regulated tickets - my understanding is that the DfT set the ceiling for the fare. It doesn't mean the ToC can't reduce the fare if they think doing so would bring in more money from more passengers. Is that understanding wrong?

it hasn’t, far from it. Indeed much, much more is known now than was 28 years ago.

What has changed is the market itself (and therefore how elasticities have changed), and also the TOCs ability to react to it.

LNER could easily increase their revenue substantially at weekends, if only they were allowed to charge the market rate (as determined by elasticities) rather than the regulated fare. Not a popular policy, granted.

I can't imagine "market rate" pricing being popular or at all workable! Imagine the chaos with people trying to jump on the last "regular" price Paddington to Devon / Cornwall service before the prices shoot up for the Easter break due to demand? It is already bad enough let alone adding even more incentives for everyone to cram on earlier services. Just because it works for airlines doesn't mean it would work for the railway.

 

[modernrail]

In terms of regulated tickets - my understanding is that the DfT set the ceiling for the fare. It doesn't mean the ToC can't reduce the fare if they think doing so would bring in more money from more passengers. Is that understanding wrong?

I can't imagine "market rate" pricing being popular or at all workable! Imagine the chaos with people trying to jump on the last "regular" price Paddington to Devon / Cornwall service before the prices shoot up for the Easter break due to demand? It is already bad enough let alone adding even more incentives for everyone to cram on earlier services. Just because it works for airlines doesn't mean it would work for the railway.

Agreed. For long distance I really think we need a more transparent model with something like,
- no more than 50 per cent of seats sold as advance
- no more than 3 advance fares, with it clear how many seats are in each category
- highest advance fares no more than 75% of equivalent full fare for journey
- other half of seats at a single full fare walk up price
- full fare is about as it is for off-peak but you can always do singles
- peak fare is no more than 150% of off peak fare

Passengers are sick of the game playing and just want to know there is a fair transparent system in place. Yes they and I would all love fares to be lower overall but that is surely going to take some serious policy change on ratio of fares to subsidy (not going to happen at the moment) or the railways becoming seriously more efficient (with our ageing infrastructure, associated climate resilience risks, unique loading gauge, generally higher costs than elsewhere, and the RMT in play - also looks unlikely).

So a bit more stable and transparent ticketing with the silly peak mega fares lopped would be at least a good place to start.

They could obviously put their brains on on season tickets as well but to be fair, maybe that needs another 6 months before decisions are made. The ultimate on season tickets would be ultra flexibility (so any combo of days season ticket) with bus to train station thrown in for small supplement to try and get some modal shift.

 

[Watershed]

In terms of regulated tickets - my understanding is that the DfT set the ceiling for the fare. It doesn't mean the ToC can't reduce the fare if they think doing so would bring in more money from more passengers. Is that understanding wrong?

In theory, yes. However, in practice the term 'regulated fares' has very little meaning anymore, given that the TOCs have no revenue risk anymore and simply do what the DfT tell them to. There is very little chance of the DfT authorising any fare reduction (as they, in turn, are being heavily leaned upon by the Treasury to limit subsidy).

I can't imagine "market rate" pricing being popular or at all workable! Imagine the chaos with people trying to jump on the last "regular" price Paddington to Devon / Cornwall service before the prices shoot up for the Easter break due to demand? It is already bad enough let alone adding even more incentives for everyone to cram on earlier services. Just because it works for airlines doesn't mean it would work for the railway.

This form of unbridled "market pricing" has long existed in the evening peaks out of London, where TOCs charge ludicrous sums for (unregulated) Anytime tickets if you have the audacity to travel between 3-7pm. And whilst there are a handful of instances of pricing being used in a sensible manner to manage overcrowding, in the vast majority of cases it is simply down to maximising revenue, rather than any noble intention.

With a changing demand pattern, reform of fares is necessary - but safeguards must remain in the system to ensure that the railway remains affordable. There is no sense in having a heavily subsidised railway if it priced so high that it may as well not exist for the average person.

 

[modernrail]

Do any forum users think current peak walk up long distance fares are okay and not too high? Let’s take Manchester to London arriving in London 9.30am and leaving at 5.30pm as a common example.

 

[43066]

Do any forum users think current peak walk up long distance fares are okay and not too high? Let’s take Manchester to London arriving in London 9.30am and leaving at 5.30pm as a common example.

It might well be that the people using those are travelling into London for meetings and being reimbursed by their employers, just as was the case pre Covid. Most leisure travellers will avoid the traditional peaks. Let’s face it most leisure travellers without access to railcards etc would be mad not to book advanced tickets.

 

[modernrail]

It might well be that the people using those are travelling into London for meetings and being reimbursed by their employers, just as was the case pre Covid. Most leisure travellers will avoid the traditional peaks. Let’s face it most leisure travellers without access to railcards etc would be mad not to book advanced tickets.

Sorry, I should clarify, I mean in the general sense, no matter who they are paid by. Employers don’t have limitless cash either. They are price sensitive when setting travel policies.

 

[david1212]

I wish anyone trying to argue to reduce ticket prices good luck in their endeavours in getting that past the Treasury and the DfT. There is little to no evidence that they'll countenance any such things and a fair old bit that they won't (recall that the much vaunted flexi-seasons that have in some cases increased fares were going to be even less generous until the industry managed to get the Treasury to cave in slightly).

I don't doubt you, after all they have already had the opportunity. For testing they could have had a long promotion, minimum three months.

Agreed. For long distance I really think we need a more transparent model with something like,
- no more than 50 per cent of seats sold as advance
- no more than 3 advance fares, with it clear how many seats are in each category
- highest advance fares no more than 75% of equivalent full fare for journey
- other half of seats at a single full fare walk up price
- full fare is about as it is for off-peak but you can always do singles
- peak fare is no more than 150% of off peak fare

All sensible suggestions so long as by peak fare is no more than 150% of off peak fare you mean if off peak fare is £50 the peak fare is £75 not £125.

An all single fare system with each ticket 60% of the current return I think is they way to go. When a reverse ticket is purchased with the outward one there is an automatic discount. To get back to the current return that is 0.833 / 16.67% but I doubt that if 15% the volume of sales would reduce. This system could allow out and back by a different route and a circular e.g. Birmingham > Bristol > Didcot or Reading > Birmingham.

In addition there could be an automatic discount for multiple purchases be they a group travelling together or one person making several identical journeys.

Passengers are sick of the game playing and just want to know there is a fair transparent system in place. Yes they and I would all love fares to be lower overall but that is surely going to take some serious policy change on ratio of fares to subsidy (not going to happen at the moment) or the railways becoming seriously more efficient (with our ageing infrastructure, associated climate resilience risks, unique loading gauge, generally higher costs than elsewhere, and the RMT in play - also looks unlikely).

So a bit more stable and transparent ticketing with the silly peak mega fares lopped would be at least a good place to start ....

One size will never fit all but now we have Manchester - London peak return at almost 4x the off peak while Shrewsbury - Birmingham is 1.075 x off peak.

Cheltenham only a few miles near to Bristol ( Temple Meads ) than Birmingham. The ticket structure is totally different yet the main service is the same train !! The former only has day singles at £14.50 peak / £10.60 off peak and and day returns £19.70 peak / £11.00 off peak. The latter only has singles at £30.20 peak / £28.90 off peak and and month returns £47.40 peak / £29.40 off peak. Peak and off peak times are different too with the former more generous.

Generally where otherwise the validity is the same why have a higher fare to return on a different day ? Just make every ticket valid 30 / 31 days. More restrictive times can be covered by super off peak. Back three years ago I would have suggested weekend tickets valid from say 10:00 Friday until Sunday ( 04:29 Monday ) plus 10:00 - 16:00 Monday.

As transparent as frosted glass !!

 

[43066]

Sorry, I should clarify, I mean in the general sense, no matter who they are paid by. Employers don’t have limitless cash either. They are price sensitive when setting travel policies.

Do we really think there are lots of leisure travellers in Manchester (etc.) who are champing at the bit to travel to London during the traditional peak, but are so incensed by the current pricing structure that they won’t be prepared to wait until off peak and will decide not to travel at all?

 

[Watershed]

An all single fare system with each ticket 60% of the current return I think is they way to go. When a reverse ticket is purchased with the outward one there is an automatic discount.

As soon as you start tying a discount to the purchase of a return ticket, things get messy in terms of refunds, change of route etc. Single leg pricing - whilst retaining the ability to buy a period return - is the way forward.

In addition there could be an automatic discount for multiple purchases be they a group travelling together or one person making several identical journeys.

The former already exists on most TOCs by way of the GroupSave discount. Really this ought to be extended across all TOCs; the current exceptions (e.g. EMR's dedicated ticket type) should be abolished and aligned, as it simple adds confusion.

The latter is a more complex matter as, unless you are going to make it only work if you buy exactly the same journey from exactly the same retailer, you are going to have to share industry across the data and tie tickets to individuals. Plus you would need to avoid situations where e.g. buying a Bristol to Worcestershire Parkway ticket didn't count towards any discount gained by buying Bristol to Birmingham tickets.

Obviously PAYG travel is a key enabler for this, but that is still a long way away - if nothing else simply because of the fact that the wider rail network doesn't really suit itself to a zonal structure. Most overseas countries that have nationwide zonal ticketing have very complex structures, which are so difficult to understand that you may as well keep what we have now.

Generally where otherwise the validity is the same why have a higher fare to return on a different day ? Just make every ticket valid 30 / 31 days.

Of course the problem here is that having a difference between day and period returns enables market segmentation. Someone making a day trip is more likely to be price conscious and hence tickets aimed at them need to be cheaper. The other issue is that if all tickets were valid for a month, it would be a fare dodgers' charter as people would reuse tickets.

 

[david1212]

As soon as you start tying a discount to the purchase of a return ticket, things get messy in terms of refunds, change of route etc. Single leg pricing - whilst retaining the ability to buy a period return - is the way forward.

Refunds ought not to be an issue - the remaining ticket gets charged as if the only purchase then the balance less any fee returned.

I can see issues with changes of route i.e. excessing a ticket but consistent pricing would eliminate much of this as passengers would not be working around pricing inconsistencies plus could initially buy what they wanted and get the 15% reduction on the combination e.g. Birmingham - Marylebone + Euston - Birmingham rather than Birmingham - Marylebone return then later ( as an example even if not actually allowed ) excessing the Marylebone - Birmingham return to Euston - Birmingham.

The former already exists on most TOCs by way of the GroupSave discount. Really this ought to be extended across all TOCs; the current exceptions (e.g. EMR's dedicated ticket type) should be abolished and aligned, as it simple adds confusion.

The latter is a more complex matter as, unless you are going to make it only work if you buy exactly the same journey from exactly the same retailer, you are going to have to share industry across the data and tie tickets to individuals. Plus you would need to avoid situations where e.g. buying a Bristol to Worcestershire Parkway ticket didn't count towards any discount gained by buying Bristol to Birmingham tickets.

That is what I meant - at the point of purchase buy a multiple quantity.

Obviously PAYG travel is a key enabler for this, but that is still a long way away - if nothing else simply because of the fact that the wider rail network doesn't really suit itself to a zonal structure. Most overseas countries that have nationwide zonal ticketing have very complex structures, which are so difficult to understand that you may as well keep what we have now.


Of course the problem here is that having a difference between day and period returns enables market segmentation. Someone making a day trip is more likely to be price conscious and hence tickets aimed at them need to be cheaper.

Not necessarily - the cost of an off-peak (monthly) return at e.g. £100 vs a day return ( or split fare day return combination ) at £60 is a disincentive to using the train for a weekend break.

The other issue is that if all tickets were valid for a month, it would be a fare dodgers' charter as people would reuse tickets.

With more ticket checking there would be fewer opportunities.

 

[The exile]

It might well be that the people using those are travelling into London for meetings and being reimbursed by their employers, just as was the case pre Covid. Most leisure travellers will avoid the traditional peaks. Let’s face it most leisure travellers without access to railcards etc would be mad not to book advanced tickets.

Lots of leisure journeys where you can safely book the outward journey in advance, but have much less idea about when you’re coming back! Journeys to airports being only the most obvious!

 

[Llandudno]

Too techy for me but…

TfW have just posted on Facebook that weekend travel is already 100% back at pre pandemic levels and are warning of overcrowding on the north Wales Coast this weekend.

I wonder if they are able/willing to strengthen any services, presumably the loco hauled set will be parked up in the sidings all weekend as there are no rugby matches on in Cardiff?

They really need to do something with the Sunday timetable, just one train per hour west of Chester, surely there is stock available to improve this frequency, which presumably dates back to when Wales was closed on Sundays!

They really need to get some 197s and the 40+ year old ‘refurbished’ London Tube trains in service asap to enable some of the current fleet to be deployed elsewhere.

Perhaps some of our more proficient IT posters could attach TfW’s Facebook link?

 

[wobman]

Too techy for me but…

TfW have just posted on Facebook that weekend travel is already 100% back at pre pandemic levels and are warning of overcrowding on the north Wales Coast this weekend.

I wonder if they are able/willing to strengthen any services, presumably the loco hauled set will be parked up in the sidings all weekend as there are no rugby matches on in Cardiff?

They really need to do something with the Sunday timetable, just one train per hour west of Chester, surely there is stock available to improve this frequency, which presumably dates back to when Wales was closed on Sundays!

They really need to get some 197s and the 40+ year old ‘refurbished’ London Tube trains in service asap to enable some of the current fleet to be deployed elsewhere.

Perhaps some of our more proficient IT posters could attach TfW’s Facebook link?

Unfortunately TFW don't have the units or the staff at this moment in time to run the extra services or have more units out running, not all of the Holyhead drivers sign the Mk4s and tfw struggle to cover the MK4 jobs along the N Wales coast. There's a big training program on new traction but the 197s are ready for service and the 230's won't be in service until May TT change.

A lot of the blame regarding training is caused by the covid backlog, it's going to be a very bust easter weekend and Avanti won't be adding extra services either by the looks of things.

We have to remember that N Wales is a long distance away from Cardiff, the powers in charge don't understand the local logistical issues the tourist areas in North and mid Wales have. Its been this way for a long time Unfortunately, I would always recommend to go to your destination early to miss the peak times and return early aswell if your travelling this weekend.

 

[al78]

It might well be that the people using those are travelling into London for meetings and being reimbursed by their employers, just as was the case pre Covid. Most leisure travellers will avoid the traditional peaks. Let’s face it most leisure travellers without access to railcards etc would be mad not to book advanced tickets.

If I want to visit my family, it is pointless even getting an advance ticket from Horsham to Manchester and back. The cost has escalated to well above the marginal cost of driving, even accounting for the high fuel price inflation. Long gone are the days when I could get there and back by train for less than £50.

 

[modernrail]

Do we really think there are lots of leisure travellers in Manchester (etc.) who are champing at the bit to travel to London during the traditional peak, but are so incensed by the current pricing structure that they won’t be prepared to wait until off peak and will decide not to travel at all?

Yes, because that allows you to have a day trip. At the moment (and for many years) a day trip to London is completely impossible for any one other than the seriously rich. Really bloody obvious. Bristol to London - totally doable as a day trip. Would you like to go and do a survey of people in Bristol and ask how many would quite like to do a day trip (obvious answer - that sounds great, there is that thing I want to see) and then ask them if they fancy paying approx £1000 for their family to do the trip.

But that is not my main point. My main point is that business users are staying away from these services now because they can. Employers are saying, don’t get that stupidly priced train, if there is no reasonable advance, do Teams. Business users paying there own fare are saying, sod that. The other guy is happy with Teams. Whilst I would quite like a face to face to build the relationship, no way at that price.

Not sure which part of this people are finding hard to understand. Also, a bit surprised that so-called rail enthusiasts think it is okay to see their fellow countrymen ripped off with fares 4X off peak.

Anyway, it all comes out in the wash - if not sorted, revenue dives, the DfT force stupid cuts on important services, people lose their jobs, the RMT strike all the time, leisure users are put off and the railway goes into serious decline. So your choice really which side of this you want to come down on.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, because that allows you to have a day trip. At the moment (and for many years) a day trip to London is completely impossible for any one other than the seriously rich. Really bloody obvious. Bristol to London - totally doable as a day trip. Would you like to go and do a survey of people in Bristol and ask how many would quite like to do a day trip (obvious answer - that sounds great, there is that thing I want to see) and then ask them if they fancy paying approx £1000 for their family to do the trip.

But that is not my main point. My main point is that business users are staying away from these services now because they can. Employers are saying, don’t get that stupidly priced train, if there is no reasonable advance, do Teams. Business users paying there own fare are saying, sod that. The other guy is happy with Teams. Whilst I would quite like a face to face to build the relationship, no way at that price.

Not sure which part of this people are finding hard to understand. Also, a bit surprised that so-called rail enthusiasts think it is okay to see their fellow countrymen ripped off with fares 4X off peak.

Anyway, it all comes out in the wash - if not sorted, revenue dives, the DfT force stupid cuts on important services, people lose their jobs, the RMT strike all the time, leisure users are put off and the railway goes into serious decline. So your choice really which side of this you want to come down on.

picking up on your Manchester / Bristol comparison. It seems that if you want a day trip from Bristol on a direct train, you will be paying £90 - £117 for the outward portion until the 0830 departure, when it falls to £48. For Manchester, you will be paying £110-£148 until the 0835 departure when it falls to £37.

given that Bristol is approx 2/3 the distance from London that Manchester is, it seems to me that the fares a
offered are broadly the same in value; if anything Manchester is better.

besides, as I’ve said before, departing Manchester at 0835 still enables a good day trip in London, and a return fir around £70.

 

[dk1]

picking up on your Manchester / Bristol comparison. It seems that if you want a day trip from Bristol on a direct train, you will be paying £90 - £117 for the outward portion until the 0830 departure, when it falls to £48. For Manchester, you will be paying £110-£148 until the 0835 departure when it falls to £37.

given that Bristol is approx 2/3 the distance from London that Manchester is, it seems to me that the fares a
offered are broadly the same in value; if anything Manchester is better.

besides, as I’ve said before, departing Manchester at 0835 still enables a good day trip in London, and a return fir around £70.

Very reasonable indeed in my opinion.

 

[modernrail]

Very reasonable indeed in my opinion.

So, problems….

First one is that 8.30 is not really early enough for a Manchester - London day trip. You would want to be in London for no later than 10 if coming back in the evening, probably earlier. It is definitely not early enough for work meetings - as I know from many 6am Leeds to London shleps.

1. The only return fare is hideous.
2. There is no return that is double the single fare. Why? Is this a peak service or an off peak service? Why do I need to work so hard to understand what on earth is going on here. I just want to buy a ticket. We are still a ‘return fare’ country and whilst I welcome the move to singles, the system needs to be set up so it doesn’t seem to rip people off like this. There should always be a fare in ‘returns’ that is X2 the cheapest advance and x2 the cheapest combo of flexible fares.
3. There are a ridiculous number of fares on offer. Why?
4. How many of these fares are online only? Can’t tell from this list but lots of singles seem say ‘online only’ next to them on TOC sites. What happens if I go up to the ticket office. I have had different experiences, sometimes being told only the Anytime return is available, sometimes being told this and then finding the cheaper single on the machine. Once buying the cheaper single on the machine that seemed to be okay then being told it is not valid.

It is just ridiculous. Those screenshots are just ridiculous.

Oh and I just spotted there is a 1st class return in the singles section. Is that meant to be there? That 1st class return is cheaper than the cheapest return, even though it is also a return.

 

[dk1]

So, problems….

First one is that 8.30 is not really early enough for a Manchester - London day trip. You would want to be in London for no later than 10 if coming back in the evening, probably earlier. It is definitely not early enough for work meetings - as I know from many 6am Leeds to London shleps.

1. The only return fare is hideous.
2. There is no return that is double the single fare. Why? Is this a peak service or an off peak service? Why do I need to work so hard to understand what on earth is going on here. I just want to buy a ticket. We are still a ‘return fare’ country and whilst I welcome the move to singles, the system needs to be set up so it doesn’t seem to rip people off like this. There should always be a fare in ‘returns’ that is X2 the cheapest advance and x2 the cheapest combo of flexible fares.
3. There are a ridiculous number of fares on offer. Why?
4. How many of these fares are online only? Can’t tell from this list but lots of singles seem say ‘online only’ next to them on TOC sites. What happens if I go up to the ticket office. I have had different experiences, sometimes being told only the Anytime return is available, sometimes being told this and then finding the cheaper single on the machine. Once buying the cheaper single on the machine that seemed to be okay then being told it is not valid.

It is just ridiculous. Those screenshots are just ridiculous.

Oh and I just spotted there is a 1st class return in the singles section. Is that meant to be there? That 1st class return is cheaper than the cheapest return, even though it is also a return.

The myriad of fares is an age old problem. Arriving at 10:45 into Euston seems perfect for a day out.

 

[modernrail]

And now for a more realistic example for a day trip with kids. Manchester to London leaving around 7 and coming back around 5.

£369 return. That is just ridiculous. I presume anybody defending that fare literally hates their fellow humans and, in this new world, the railway.

The best singles that can be pieced together still leave this at an eye watering £186. This is 2 weeks out so not exactly walk up. How is any advance single on a train that trundles through the British countryside at an extremely modest 125mph at best £149?

The ticket options are a touch more logical - GWR are appalling and in my mind fraudsters in the way they set their ticketing up. Avanti and LNER are at least relatively clear about how they are about to rip you off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2022 ==

The myriad of fares is an age old problem. Arriving at 10:45 into Euston seems perfect for a day out.

Arriving into Euston about an hour before noon is perfect for a day out? Yeah, I like to go to the match 5 minutes before half time as well.

 

[dk1]

Leaving at 07:00 for a day out. Gosh!!

Best wait until a Saturday for that sort of thing then.

 

[modernrail]

Leaving at 07:00 for a day out. Gosh!!

Best wait until a Saturday for that sort of thing then.

I actually didn’t bring this day out thing up, but am responding to another post. But yes, breaking news, people do get up early for a day out. Shocking news I know.

The far more serious point for railway revenue is the way all that complexity and absurd pricing will be putting off business users. I would expect to see them remain the bread and butter revenue of earlier services but no way for many at those prices.

I strongly suspect GWR purposely set out their tickets like that so that company travel desks receiving an employee request for a flexible return buy the Anytime. That is pretty much theft to me. There is a cheaper flexible return fare available. It is also stupid in terms of customer relations and retention.

 

[Ken H]

Before 2020 my client would do a big software implementation by dragging all the players into one place so the comms were easy. Thats a lot of flights (pan-European company) and hotel nights so big ££££.

Covid came and there was a big IT implementation in April. Did they ship everyone to one place? No. it was all done on Skype, email etc. Using the text option as well as conferencing. And the ability to share screens.
They havent done any implementations since except on Skype/Teams (They changed the video conf provider in 2021)
The last one I did I did my bit sat on the sofa at home in a remote part of Yorkshire. And listening to the background noises (kids, dogs, family talking) most were at home too.
This works perfectly well now. I dont think my client will change back to dragging people across Europe for implementations ever.
THAT'S where business travel has gone....

 

[lammergeier]

Before 2020 my client would do a big software implementation by dragging all the players into one place so the comms were easy. Thats a lot of flights (pan-European company) and hotel nights so big ££££.

Covid came and there was a big IT implementation in April. Did they ship everyone to one place? No. it was all done on Skype, email etc. Using the text option as well as conferencing. And the ability to share screens.
They havent done any implementations since except on Skype/Teams (They changed the video conf provider in 2021)
The last one I did I did my bit sat on the sofa at home in a remote part of Yorkshire. And listening to the background noises (kids, dogs, family talking) most were at home too.
This works perfectly well now. I dont think my client will change back to dragging people across Europe for implementations ever.
THAT'S where business travel has gone....

Just out of interest do you miss the travel side of things? As much as I love my home I can't bear the thought of working in it all the time. Especially if previously there was the opportunity for international travel, meeting people from other countries etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just out of interest do you miss the travel side of things? As much as I love my home I can't bear the thought of working in it all the time. Especially if previously there was the opportunity for international travel, meeting people from other countries etc

From a personal point of view 2 days a week in the office would be ideal (I've had the odd project like that and quite enjoyed it). Fully from home (as I'm doing now) can be isolating, but daily mid-distance commuting (which I've done by both rail and road) was so draining it almost led me to a breakdown. I'd happily do it for a week for a training course or similar, but doing it on an ongoing basis just meant I never got enough sleep.

I definitely do miss the great "free holidays" work used to bring though!

 

[Ken H]

Just out of interest do you miss the travel side of things? As much as I love my home I can't bear the thought of working in it all the time. Especially if previously there was the opportunity for international travel, meeting people from other countries etc

No. all you ever saw was airports, boring hotels and the office. (I was sent to Poland in Feb. Airport hotel, thick freezing fog. Taxi to the office each day down roads lined with grey tenements. No desire to explore. And every meal had beetroot!. Some horrid early starts too. Actually did Cologne and back in a day once. I am sure Warsaw is lovely in summer but definitely not in winter.)
And dont miss the office. My work life has been a string of long commutes, many of which were not rail commutable. Nights away in Travelodges tend to dull ones appetites for going to the office.
I find chatting on Teams as good.
TBH my current client has their IT distributed round several offices, so going to the office to talk to someone in Netherlands vis Teams seems bizarre.

 

[modernrail]

Thinking about it, the Airedale and Wharfdale are interesting to look at as non-London outer suburban with no metro stations.

Anybody travel/work on those lines in the traditional peaks and if so, how are loadings?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. all you ever saw was airports, boring hotels and the office. (I was sent to Poland in Feb. Airport hotel, thick freezing fog. Taxi to the office each day down roads lined with grey tenements. No desire to explore.

Interesting you say that, because I always set stuff up so I did want to explore. It did help working for a smaller company and so in full control of my travel, though. You're right that Polish suburbs are grim (but then so are many British ones) but the city centres are often beautiful.