Same destination, same departure time, same train company

[Bletchleyite]

The number already exists, it is called the Retail Service ID. It is just a matter of displaying it.

It wouldn't be massively hard to avoid confusion with times, though, simply by changing it so a four digit number is never used.

 

[ComUtoR]

Well we just change the headcodes to TP456 or SW357 depending on the operator.

What if 1A56 is different on Monday than Tuesday ? Do you then use TP456M and TP456T ?

 

[kristiang85]

What if 1A56 is different on Monday than Tuesday ? Do you then use TP456M and TP456T ?

No, because nobody is going to get confused 24 hours apart. Airlines use the same code each day for the same time.

 

[miklcct]

No, because nobody is going to get confused 24 hours apart. Airlines use the same code each day for the same time.

People in the USA are commonly confused 24 hours apart when trains / flights depart at midnight. But the reason is that they use 12-hour clock rather than 24-hour clock elsewhere. As we never have 00:00 as public time in the UK, nobody is going to be confused 24 hours apart.

 

[ComUtoR]

No, because nobody is going to get confused 24 hours apart. Airlines use the same code each day for the same time.

Let me clarify.

Train 1A56 runs (on Monday) Station A, B, C, D, E then fast to Z
Train 1A56 runs (on Tuesday) Station A, C, F, X, Y, then Z

The same headcode, different stopping pattern dependent on which day of the week it runs. How would you change those headcodes ? Would you use two different numbers ?

 

[miklcct]

Let me clarify.

Train 1A56 runs (on Monday) Station A, B, C, D, E then fast to Z
Train 1A56 runs (on Tuesday) Station A, C, F, X, Y, then Z

The same headcode, different stopping pattern dependent on which day of the week it runs. How would you change those headcodes ? Would you use two different numbers ?

There will be no confusion. It's already common sense that a "Bus 25" may run different routes on a weekday or on a Sunday.

 

[BayPaul]

Let me clarify.

Train 1A56 runs (on Monday) Station A, B, C, D, E then fast to Z
Train 1A56 runs (on Tuesday) Station A, C, F, X, Y, then Z

The same headcode, different stopping pattern dependent on which day of the week it runs. How would you change those headcodes ? Would you use two different numbers ?

Exactly! Much more potential for confusion than the current system

 

[zwk500]

Exactly! Much more potential for confusion than the current system

Not really. The 11.45 to Station Z on Tuesday the 24th is hardly any more clear than train TP456 on Tuesday 24th.

 

[kristiang85]

Let me clarify.

Train 1A56 runs (on Monday) Station A, B, C, D, E then fast to Z
Train 1A56 runs (on Tuesday) Station A, C, F, X, Y, then Z

The same headcode, different stopping pattern dependent on which day of the week it runs. How would you change those headcodes ? Would you use two different numbers ?

I should use a different code then for passengers, as it is a different stopping pattern. Easy to solve.

And the current system is just as confusing, as mentioned above, not less confusing.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Certainly easier when using google maps directions abroad (or for buses in the UK) when it tells you the train (bus) number to get onto. No need to worry about terminal nor en-route station names and routes etc. Just look for the number and get on board. (Google has worked out the quickest route so you don't have to worry about whether you're getting a fast or slow service or direct/indirect etc).

I don't think it's wise to rely too much on Google's judgement...

 

[BayPaul]

Not really. The 11.45 to Station Z on Tuesday the 24th is hardly any more clear than train TP456 on Tuesday 24th.

Except that 11:45 is a piece of information you already need to remember, even if you know the headcode.

 

[ComUtoR]

I should use a different code then for passengers, as it is a different stopping pattern. Easy to solve.

So Station A - Station Z will need a unique number for every single stopping pattern ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So Station A - Station Z will need a unique number for every single stopping pattern ?

Each individual train has a number, like flights.

 

[ComUtoR]

Each individual train has a number, like flights.

In what way ?

Does every individual service have a unique number, for every single stopping pattern ? or just end to end ?

So.

Station A - Z is #70
Station A - Z (via B) is #71

 

[Bletchleyite]

In what way ?

Does every individual service have a unique number, for every single stopping pattern ? or just end to end ?

So.

Station A - Z is #70
Station A - Z (via B) is #71

You're thinking bus numbering. The concept behind this is like flight numbering, so you uniquely identify every single individual train service on a given day it can be printed on Advance tickets and reservations.

For instance, the 1000 Euston-Manchester might be VT1234 and the 1020 VT1236 (traditionally you have odd in one direction and even in the other). It has that number throughout its run.

You can have conventions in there, e.g. you might use VT1 for all London to Manchester trains, but it is not about numbering routes like buses, it is about unambiguously identifying IC trains where most people book in advance. Bus route style numbers have benefits on urban stopping networks like Merseyrail, Metrolink, the Tube etc, but this thread is about something different from that.

This number already exists, it is called the Retail Service ID, but it is not made public other than on the side displays of Voyagers.

 

[ComUtoR]

it is about unambiguously identifying IC trains where most people book in advance.

Cheers.

 

[Phil56]

Let me clarify.

Train 1A56 runs (on Monday) Station A, B, C, D, E then fast to Z
Train 1A56 runs (on Tuesday) Station A, C, F, X, Y, then Z

The same headcode, different stopping pattern dependent on which day of the week it runs. How would you change those headcodes ? Would you use two different numbers ?

That begs the question as to why the UK train network is so complicated with different services on different days. I've never noticed that kind of thing on mainland Europe. No wonder there's confusion if the 11:16 on a Monday stops in different places to the 11:16 on a Tuesday!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That begs the question as to why the UK train network is so complicated with different services on different days. I've never noticed that kind of thing on mainland Europe. No wonder there's confusion if the 11:16 on a Monday stops in different places to the 11:16 on a Tuesday!

It doesn't actually matter, because you're very unlikely to get confusion between VT1234 on a Friday and VT1234 on a Saturday, because if you've got a reservation you know which day it's for. This is solely about marrying up reservations/Advances and trains.

Literally nobody gets confused between EZY1234 on one day and EZY1234 on another. Though they might show up on the wrong day because they screwed up (and get kerchinged as a result) there isn't any real confusion about flight numbers.

 

[miklcct]

This number already exists, it is called the Retail Service ID, but it is not made public other than on the side displays of Voyagers.

It was supposed to be made public.

 

[Clip]

No, because nobody is going to get confused 24 hours apart. Airlines use the same code each day for the same time.

Airlines, in general, don't really have a myriad of stops along the way though

Ever since i were a lad its been easy to see the destination board and get on the train you needed - I don't really think its a 'not of our making so we wont do it thing' either - since the railways have started it has generally operated the same and as we grow up we are trained in how to use it - there must be very very few people outside of enthusiasts that this would benefit if any at all

In fact with the advent of advanced fares its even easier now to know where to go apart from the one or maybe 2 cases in this thread of similar timed departures so why bother changing what obviously isn't broken?

 

[miklcct]

I've just seen the on-board display on a 455 showing "Waterloo via Cobham" rather than scrolling through the long calling list. And there was no automatic announcement on board.



The word Cobham is what I need to distinguish between the 3 routes to Waterloo.

Is this a recent change or just because the driver didn't load the calling list into the system?

 

[kristiang85]

Airlines, in general, don't really have a myriad of stops along the way though

Ever since i were a lad its been easy to see the destination board and get on the train you needed - I don't really think its a 'not of our making so we wont do it thing' either - since the railways have started it has generally operated the same and as we grow up we are trained in how to use it - there must be very very few people outside of enthusiasts that this would benefit if any at all

In fact with the advent of advanced fares its even easier now to know where to go apart from the one or maybe 2 cases in this thread of similar timed departures so why bother changing what obviously isn't broken?

If anything advance fares make it more important to have clearly defined trains, because passengers have to get that exact train. When there are similar timed departures or differing TOCs, what harm does it do to give passengers a bit of extra info? Especially given the penalty for getting it wrong is quite severe.

The whole point is to benefit those with less experience of the railways and who might not necessarily know the nuances of different TOCs or fast/slow trains, not the enthusiasts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If anything advance fares make it more important to have clearly defined trains, because passengers have to get that exact train. When there are similar timed departures or differing TOCs, what harm does it do to give passengers a bit of extra info? Especially given the penalty for getting it wrong is quite severe.

The whole point is to benefit those with less experience of the railways and who might not necessarily know the nuances of different TOCs or fast/slow trains, not the enthusiasts.

And because those same people probably went on holiday on a plane, "flight numbers" are a known thing and thus won't cause confusion.

 

[roversfan2001]

I don't think flight numbers are mainly what people look for in airports either, truth be told. For the stereotypical British holidaymaker, "where's the 1030 Ryanair to Alicante?" is likely to be said far more than "where's FR1234 to Alicante?".

 

[hkstudent]

I think pretty one of the problem is, we don't differentiate fast trains from local service.
If using DB ways of differentiation, of putting prefix like R, RE, IC, ICE can already tell which is fast and which is slow service, instead of using "fake destination"
Of course, not to mention those in Japan, Taiwan or in Mainland China.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think pretty one of the problem is, we don't differentiate fast trains from local service.
If using DB ways of differentiation, of putting prefix like R, RE, IC, ICE can already tell which is fast and which is slow service, instead of using "fake destination"
Of course, not to mention those in Japan, Taiwan or in Mainland China.

The TOCs pretty much do that in most cases. Within England only really GWR combines both local and InterCity services under one roof without any kind of differential branding.

 

[kristiang85]

I don't think flight numbers are mainly what people look for in airports either, truth be told. For the stereotypical British holidaymaker, "where's the 1030 Ryanair to Alicante?" is likely to be said far more than "where's FR1234 to Alicante?".

As someone who travels a lot, I always stick to flight numbers - especially when it's a 3am layover in Istanbul or somewhere, I'm deprived of sleep and there's a departure every 5 minutes.

Given the amount of departures at some of the busiest stations in the UK, many would find it helpful. I certainly would.

And re. the German system - I find those an absolute godsend when I'm there. Especially at a station like Berlin Hauptbahnhof...

 

[roversfan2001]

As someone who travels a lot, I always stick to flight numbers - especially when it's a 3am layover in Istanbul or somewhere, I'm deprived of sleep and there's a departure every 5 minutes.

Likewise, but I'd wager that we both travel far more than the average punter.

I don't think there'd be any harm in using 'train numbers', but it's not a silver bullet and people will continue to get on the wrong trains through lack of attention.

 

[ashkeba]

I don't think flight numbers are mainly what people look for in airports either, truth be told. For the stereotypical British holidaymaker, "where's the 1030 Ryanair to Alicante?" is likely to be said far more than "where's FR1234 to Alicante?".

You don't need the "to Alicante" if you have the flight number.

How much do British hollidayers use the airline? And how much of "the 1030 to Alicante" is because train numbers aren't used, so infrequent British air travellers are unfamiliar with the idea of unique service IDs?

 

[Clip]

If anything advance fares make it more important to have clearly defined trains, because passengers have to get that exact train. When there are similar timed departures or differing TOCs, what harm does it do to give passengers a bit of extra info? Especially given the penalty for getting it wrong is quite severe.

The whole point is to benefit those with less experience of the railways and who might not necessarily know the nuances of different TOCs or fast/slow trains, not the enthusiasts.

I don't really have much experience of the railway - I do enjoy a tram or two - however how many people are we talking about here who have run into such difficulties ? is it in the tens of thousands?

I agree with the above poster too - I've never looked for a flight number when flying somewhere - airline and destination and time does me well every time as it does on the railway - and with the advent of that webpage thingy on which you can look at even before the station this then makes it even easier to know which train is yours. And to back it up the departure boards when you get there.

And then how does this tally with the thread on here about tannoy spam - this is then even more info that will have to be put out by the on station and on train tannoys