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How did Northern Civitys end up with such a naff front end? It has been bothering me since they were introduced. They looks ridiculous. Yet looking at the rest of the ‘family’ in Europe they seem to have very decent and similar designs. On the basis it is surely more costly to change a previously rolled out design than just repeat it - how did it come to be?
I am less certain but the general sturdiness and certainly ride of Civity trains I have travelled on in Europe also seems better and there are most certainly less weird noises.
How did Northern Civitys end up with such a naff front end? It has been bothering me since they were introduced. They looks ridiculous. Yet looking at the rest of the ‘family’ in Europe they seem to have very decent and similar designs. On the basis it is surely more costly to change a previously rolled out design than just repeat it - how did it come to be?
I am less certain but the general sturdiness and certainly ride of Civity trains I have travelled on in Europe also seems better and there are most certainly less weird noises.
You don’t actually tell us what you don’t like about it, just saying it’s naff tells us absolutely nothing and comes across as an assumption that everyone else will agree with you.
Personally I really like the front end design and certainly prefer it to the various Aventra front end designs.
Like seat comfort, train design is very subjective.
Whilst design is to some extent a matter of personal opinion there can also be a level of consensus. I am going to out on a limb here and say if you put the more sleek curved design of the other versions next to the northern version, and ask 100 people which they prefer, you will get a majority voting against the northern design.
In terms of my personal and indeed subjective opinion, I think they are a hideous angular design that ends too high and so make it looks like the train has been stuck on top of a goods wagon, which I assume is a nod to the Pacer. When they roll into platforms I often think of the entire top of the carriage sliding off the bottom because it hasn’t been screwed on properly. The angles are ridiculous and I can only assume were designed by somebody who is a big Tron fan. I cannot imagine Gresley would have been keen.
You don’t actually tell us what you don’t like about it, just saying it’s naff tells us absolutely nothing and comes across as an assumption that everyone else will agree with you.
Personally I really like the front end design and certainly prefer it to the various Aventra front end designs.
Like seat comfort, train design is very subjective.
In terms of my personal and indeed subjective opinion, I think they are a hideous angular design that ends too high and so make it looks like the train has been stuck on top of a goods wagon, which I assume is a nod to the Pacer. When they roll into platforms I often think of the entire top of the carriage sliding off the bottom because it hasn’t been screwed on properly. The angles are ridiculous and I can only assume were designed by somebody who is a big Tron fan. I cannot imagine Gresley would have been a fan.
Whilst design is to some extent a matter of personal opinion there can also be a level of consensus. I am going to out on a limb here and say if you put the more sleek curved design of the other versions next to the northern version, and ask 100 people which they prefer, you will get a majority voting against the northern design.
In terms of my personal and indeed subjective opinion, I think they are a hideous angular design that ends too high and so make it looks like the train has been stuck on top of a goods wagon, which I assume is a nod to the Pacer. When they roll into platforms I often think of the entire top of the carriage sliding off the bottom because it hasn’t been screwed on properly. The angles are ridiculous and I can only assume were designed by somebody who is a big Tron fan. I cannot imagine Gresley would have been keen.
I would not say the Class 43 it is angular at all. Pointy front yes but otherwise nicely curved. The 195’s are full of pointless angles without purpose like the weird octagon windscreen casing which presumably actually contains a square or rectangular piece of glass.
Just looking at the Welsh version they look much better to me, even though they have the corridor connector. The front ends come to sit low rather than high and I personally look at the connector and think ‘useful feature’ and so although not aesthetically pleasing to some - perhaps good design.
When the front end of a 195 in multiple rolls in I think ‘because of that front end I need to work harder than I would otherwise to figure out where the seats might be on this train.
Totally get why drivers would prefer the Northern 195 to the Welsh version though in terms of space and view.
I agree with the OP, they are ugly. The design of the anti climber is awkward, maybe made worse by the colour scheme? It looks like the coachwork and bogie designers never met.
I agree with the OP, they are ugly. The design of the anti climber is awkward, maybe made worse by the colour scheme? It looks like the coachwork and bogie designers never met.
I think that's bit that makes them look most awkward - the way that the cab structure tucks in at the bottom before then having the two fairly narrow anti-climbers jutting out again is a unique look which is why I think they look so 'off'. I think a cosmetic chin to cover the anti-climbers that connected to the rest of the unit just under the lights would help their looks a lot, though they'd still be far from gorgeous!
I think that's bit that makes them look most awkward - the way that the cab structure tucks in at the bottom before then having the two fairly narrow anti-climbers jutting out again is a unique look which is why I think they look so 'off'. I think a cosmetic chin to cover the anti-climbers that connected to the rest of the unit just under the lights would help their looks a lot, though they'd still be far from gorgeous!
They look a bit like mini ski jumps so that the body of the train can fly into the air like Eddie the Eagle if required. Maybe it is forward planning for when we get more bridges washed out.
Just taken a look at the AM class. They should have just copied it rather than being inspired by it - IMHO it looks quite a bit better, much more integrated and more curves than angles.
I think that's bit that makes them look most awkward - the way that the cab structure tucks in at the bottom before then having the two fairly narrow anti-climbers jutting out again is a unique look which is why I think they look so 'off'.
Totally agree with the subjectivity. The 195s aren't that bad looking, but to me the 170 looks about the best of any modern train design - sleek and solid.
Totally agree with the subjectivity. The 195s aren't that bad looking, but to me the 170 looks about the best of any modern train design - sleek and solid.
Yes I like the 170 design although the cab space in a 195 and indeed in a similarly aged 333 is streets ahead of the Turbostar.
Like most things that are subjective, the pros accept that someone in the anti camp might not agree with your opinion but the anti’s will tell you that the pros opinion is wrong.
Yes I like the 170 design although the cab space in a 195 and indeed in a similarly aged 333 is streets ahead of the Turbostar.
Like most things that are subjective, the pros accept that someone in the anti camp might not agree with your opinion but the anti’s will tell you that the pros opinion is wrong.
I for one am not saying the pros are wrong. As you say, subjective means subjective. Would be interested to see what a panel of 100 non-enthusiast passengers think through. I must admit to a touch of personal disappointment as well. After travelling around on a load of really bad northern trains all my life I just hoped I would love these. Even more confusingly, I do really like the design of the 333’s and they remain my favourite Northern design of the 6430 variations on a DMU/EMU their poor engineers have to keep going whilst the Southern engineers reach for the all Electrostar spanner.
Would this panel of 100 non-enthusiast passengers actually care what the front looks like? In the majority of aspects, 195s are way better than a 14x or 150 from a passenger perspective.
I for one am not saying the pros are wrong. As you say, subjective means subjective. Would be interested to see what a panel of 100 non-enthusiast passengers think through. I must admit to a touch of personal disappointment as well. After travelling around on a load of really bad northern trains all my life I just hoped I would love these. Even more confusingly, I do really like the design of the 333’s and they remain my favourite Northern design of the 6430 variations on a DMU/EMU their poor engineers have to keep going whilst the Southern engineers reach for the all Electrostar spanner.
But that again comes across as you saying you’re right and those that think they look fine are wrong. For what it’s worth most non-enthusiasts don’t actually care what the train looks like on the outside.
Would this panel of 100 non-enthusiast passengers actually care what the front looks like? In the majority of aspects, 195s are way better than a 14x or 150 from a passenger perspective.
I don’t know. Who knows? They know. When they are asked they are not listened to (seats cough cough) (name of Antarctic ships cough cough) so they probably don’t think it is worth caring.
I would be interested exactly because I always think design and reaction to it is very interesting. I don’t subscribe to the ‘do they care’ model of analysis though. I prefer the ‘how do we produce great design for people to enjoy’ model.
In reality the front end of the train is probably low down the list of care factors for a passenger, but it will be above bogie design for instance. People care an awful lot about the front end of cars and can spend hours discussing it so who knows these things until you break bread with the people! One point of detail that would be interesting to see come out is anybody saying it would be nice if they had the little corridor interconnect things.
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But that again comes across as you saying you’re right and those that think they look fine are wrong. For what it’s worth most non-enthusiasts don’t actually care what the train looks like on the outside.
No seriously, hate to break this to you but I think your opinion is just as valid as mine and I do really enjoy hearing reactions to design and value the opinions of users of design.
I would also refer you to the discussion on here on yellow ends if you really want to see people getting a little fixed with their views.
I think they look fine enough, however as with just about every livery I find dialling back the yellow to a smaller panel from a full face looks a lot better. The other UK Civitys don't even have any yellow, so I also made one in white to match the body sides. This way you can definitely see a resemblance to an open-nose 397 or the MK5a driving end. And it'll look great for the first half hour out of a wash, after that might be another story!
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