Same destination, same departure time, same train company

[AlbertBeale]

That really is a mountain out of a molehill. The gap between Newark and Castle is your first clue, the fact that 'eleven' and 'fourteen' sound nothing like each other also helps, and one is operated by Crosscountry while the other is operated by East Midlands Railway, which sound absolutely nothing like each other.

The two bolded bits - yes. But the fact that they have different separators is completely irrelevant to most "ordinary" travellers.

I'm somewhat "into" railways, but if I was in part of the country I rarely visit these days - such as Nottingham - and was on my way towards Newcastle, or Newark, or indeed almost anywhere with the possible exception of London, I would have no idea (nor care) what brand of train to expect for my journey and would be none the wiser whatever it was, providing it was on the right platform at the right time.

 

[43066]

The two bolded bits - yes. But the fact that they have different separators is completely irrelevant to most "ordinary" travellers.

I'm somewhat "into" railways, but if I was in part of the country I rarely visit these days - such as Nottingham - and was on my way towards Newcastle, or Newark, or indeed almost anywhere with the possible exception of London, I would have no idea (nor care) what brand of train to expect for my journey and would be none the wiser whatever it was, providing it was on the right platform at the right time.

Oh come on! The railway can’t be blamed for serving places that sound similar when said quickly.

People just need to take care to check the platform screens, listen to announcements and accept that, if you end up on the wrong train, it’s your own fault. I’ve done exactly that myself a few times over the years and never felt the need to blame anyone but myself.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The two bolded bits - yes. But the fact that they have different separators is completely irrelevant to most "ordinary" travellers.

I'm somewhat "into" railways, but if I was in part of the country I rarely visit these days - such as Nottingham - and was on my way towards Newcastle, or Newark, or indeed almost anywhere with the possible exception of London, I would have no idea (nor care) what brand of train to expect for my journey and would be none the wiser whatever it was, providing it was on the right platform at the right time.

Oh come on! The railway can’t be blamed for serving places that sound similar when said quickly.

People just need to take care to check the platform screens, listen to announcements and accept that, if you end up on the wrong train, it’s your own fault. I’ve done exactly that myself a few times over the years and never felt the need to blame anyone but myself.

Sorry - a typo - I meant "different operators" of course!!

I was agreeing that the differences in destination and departure time should be plenty of guidance; I was simply pointing out that the difference in operators is something of little use to "normal" travellers who know and care little about such things.

 

[43066]

Sorry - a typo - I meant "different operators" of course!!

I was agreeing that the differences in destination and departure time should be plenty of guidance; I was simply pointing out that the difference in operators is something of little use to "normal" travellers who know and care little about such things.

Fair enough - apologies back - I should probably have quoted @duncanp .

Fully agreed re. people neither knowing nor caring who operates what.

 

[DorkingMain]

A similar situation occurs at Milton Keynes Central, where there are 2 16:55 trains to Euston, both operated by West Midlands Trains (branded LNR). One is non-stop the other a slow train.

The simple answer to both of these is to change the fast train so that it is advertised to depart 1 minute earlier, thereby creating a clear 16:33 and 16:34 to Waterloo, or 16:54 and 16:55 to Euston. The more complicated answer (although still perfectly feasible) is to use train or service numbers to distinguish each train.

This is what was done with the Sheppertons from Waterloo in the evening.

There used to be two 17:42 Sheppertons, one a normal stopper and one a semi-fast via Richmond. The semi-fast became the 17:43

 

[zwk500]

The two bolded bits - yes. But the fact that they have different separators is completely irrelevant to most "ordinary" travellers.

I'm somewhat "into" railways, but if I was in part of the country I rarely visit these days - such as Nottingham - and was on my way towards Newcastle, or Newark, or indeed almost anywhere with the possible exception of London, I would have no idea (nor care) what brand of train to expect for my journey and would be none the wiser whatever it was, providing it was on the right platform at the right time.

I agree the operator is usually totally ignored. But it is another piece of information that can be used, especially on reserved trains, and if people choose to ignore it then it is certainly not the railways fault if anything goes wrong.

 

[greatkingrat]

I agree the operator is usually totally ignored. But it is another piece of information that can be used, especially on reserved trains, and if people choose to ignore it then it is certainly not the railways fault if anything goes wrong.

Although that can cause its own problems. The livery of the train doesn't always match the actual TOC operating it due to short term hires, stock cascades, franchise changes etc. which could mean someone lets the correct train go because it is the wrong colour.

 

[zwk500]

Although that can cause its own problems. The livery of the train doesn't always match the actual TOC operating it due to short term hires, stock cascades, franchise changes etc. which could mean someone lets the correct train go because it is the wrong colour.

It can, and it's one of those things that could be managed a lot better.

 

[Andyjs247]

Leeds <> York via Harrogate trains are advertised to Poppleton towards York or Burley Park towards Leeds

 

[kristiang85]

I really don't understand the resistance to using train ID numbers. It would make it so much easier and clearer for passengers, especially when there are delays and trains being referred to by times can cause confusion.

 

[miklcct]

I agree the operator is usually totally ignored. But it is another piece of information that can be used, especially on reserved trains, and if people choose to ignore it then it is certainly not the railways fault if anything goes wrong.

The operator is always shown at the prominent place when using navigation software, such as Google Maps, Citymapper, or like.

 

[L401CJF]

To the irregular long distance traveller like myself who is pretty clued up on trains and times etc it can be confusing even if theyre timed a minute apart.

Going back about 10years with the Mrs we were travelling back from EUS to Lime St and had booked tickets for the Virgin service at (cant remember exact times) say 1832. There was another at 1831, slightly different calling patterns but only 5-10mins difference in arrival time. Cue last minute Euston rush to board as is often the case and we didn't realise we were on the wrong one until somebody else had reservations for the same seats as us, same situation at multiple other seats in the same carriage.

As it happens the train manager didnt come through at all and no tickets were checked. I suppose when you see "Liverpool" on the sign for around the time your ticket says you assume it must be that train, didnt even cross my mind that 2 trains to the same destination with the same TOC would be departing at nearly the same time! I always thought they just ran every 30 minutes all day! Needless to say i check about 20 times before boarding now!

 

[Skie]

Just append (express) or (stopper) to the destination on both the pis and tickets. Simples.

Or stagger the departure times.

 

[py_megapixel]

I really don't understand the resistance to using train ID numbers. It would make it so much easier and clearer for passengers, especially when there are delays and trains being referred to by times can cause confusion.

It works everywhere else in Europe, and they exist in the UK, they just aren't used. It's purely "not invented here" syndrome.

 

[railwaytrack]

I remember that years ago when SWT served Brighton there was a once a day in each direction service from Brighton to London Waterloo (Brighton - Worthing - Chichester - Havant - Winchester - Basingstoke - Woking - Clapham Junction - London Waterloo) and vice versa both in the early morning. However the Southbound SWT service (taking over three hours to get to Brighton) left Clapham Junction at the same exact time as a fast express Southern service (taking less than an hour to get to Brighton). Similarly the Northbound SWT service (taking over three hours to get to London) left Brighton at the same exact time as a fast express Southern service (taking less than an hour to get to London). I can imagine many people may have boarded the wrong train and gone the extremely long way wrong if they were not paying attention.

Another example is at Hampden Park where trains to all destinations leave from both platforms. There are not currently any trains to the same destination that leave at the same time. However in the past there has been some examples. During one point in the peak hours there was two trains to London Victoria both departing at the same time from opposite platforms and also two trains to Ore both departing at the same time from opposite platforms and also two trains to Brighton both departing at the same time from opposite platforms. So i imagine that could have caused a lot of confusion. But at least there are not many Advance ticket holders on these sorts of services.

I notice that train numbers are used in pretty much every other country in the entire world. Even in places such as Albania and Kosovo and Kenya and Ethiopia for some examples which have such infrequent services that train numbers are most certainly not necessary.

I think that the UK and Ireland and Australia and New Zealand are perhaps the only four countries in the world not to use train numbers.

 

[43096]

I remember that years ago when SWT served Brighton there was a once a day in each direction service from Brighton to London Waterloo (Brighton - Worthing - Chichester - Havant - Winchester - Basingstoke - Woking - Clapham Junction - London Waterloo) and vice versa both in the early morning. However the Southbound SWT service (taking over three hours to get to Brighton) left Clapham Junction at the same exact time as a fast express Southern service (taking less than an hour to get to Brighton). Similarly the Northbound SWT service (taking over three hours to get to London) left Brighton at the same exact time as a fast express Southern service (taking less than an hour to get to London). I can imagine many people may have boarded the wrong train and gone the extremely long way wrong if they were not paying attention.

What was shown on the departure boards at Brighton, though? In many of these cases they don't show the termination point (e.g. Reading-Paddington TfL Rail services are shown as "Ealing Broadway" at Reading): did they show "Woking" or something like that?

 

[duncanp]

That really is a mountain out of a molehill. The gap between Newark and Castle is your first clue, the fact that 'eleven' and 'fourteen' sound nothing like each other also helps, and one is operated by Crosscountry while the other is operated by East Midlands Railway, which sound absolutely nothing like each other.

Someone who is hard of hearing, for example, could easily mishear a platform announcement, and go to the platform for Newark Castle when they wanted Newcastle or vice versa. If you say Newark Castle very quickly, with not much of a gap between the words, it sounds similar to Newcastle.

And people unfamiliar with the timetable may not be aware of when the next train to their destination is supposed to depart.

I was once at Glasgow Central when a train to North Berwick via Shotts was cancelled.

I heard someone go up to station staff and ask when the next train was.

Turns out he wanted Berwick Upon Tweed and there was a train just about to leave - cue much running up the platform and waving of arms.

So if people can confuse North Berwick and Berwick Upon Tweed, they can just as easily confuse Newcastle and Newark Castle.

 

[zwk500]

Someone who is hard of hearing, for example, could easily mishear a platform announcement, and go to the platform for Newark Castle when they wanted Newcastle or vice versa. If you say Newark Castle very quickly, with not much of a gap between the words, it sounds similar to Newcastle.

There's an entire extra syllable and the rhythm is entirely different. Especially on a platform announcement which is recorded at a clear speed.

And people unfamiliar with the timetable may not be aware of when the next train to their destination is supposed to depart.

That is why information is advertised.

I was once at Glasgow Central when a train to North Berwick via Shotts was cancelled.

I heard someone go up to station staff and ask when the next train was.

Turns out he wanted Berwick Upon Tweed and there was a train just about to leave - cue much running up the platform and waving of arms.

So if people can confuse North Berwick and Berwick Upon Tweed, they can just as easily confuse Newcastle and Newark Castle.

It's possible for anybody to confuse anything but there is not a lot more that the railway can do than schedule trains to different destinations at different times with different operators! Are we now to rename every station on the network such that it could never possibly be confused with any other on the network?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Another example is at Hampden Park where trains to all destinations leave from both platforms. There are not currently any trains to the same destination that leave at the same time. However in the past there has been some examples. During one point in the peak hours there was two trains to London Victoria both departing at the same time from opposite platforms and also two trains to Ore both departing at the same time from opposite platforms and also two trains to Brighton both departing at the same time from opposite platforms. So i imagine that could have caused a lot of confusion. But at least there are not many Advance ticket holders on these sorts of services.

Is that because those through trains to Bexhill, London Bridge, Brighton or wherever, which call at Hampden Park (platform 2) on their way to Eastbourne, don't necessarily call at Hampden Park again (platform 1) a second time having called/reversed at Eastbourne?

(Or alternatively, if having skip-stopped platform 2 at Hampden Park on their way into Eastbourne, will then call at platform 1 on their way back out again).

Do any through trains make a "double call" at Hampden Park?

 

[miklcct]

There's an entire extra syllable and the rhythm is entirely different. Especially on a platform announcement which is recorded at a clear speed.

That is why information is advertised.

It's possible for anybody to confuse anything but there is not a lot more that the railway can do than schedule trains to different destinations at different times with different operators! Are we now to rename every station on the network such that it could never possibly be confused with any other on the network?

There are stations with the same name in the network, such as London Road. However, are there any circumstances where two trains from a station can go to two different stations of the same name, which can cause confusion?

(I can imagine someone, not familiar with the fact that Southern serves Brighton and SWR serves Guildford, may get on a train to the wrong London Road - there was also a post about a passenger being maltreated after being sold a ticket to the wrong London Road)

 

[ashkeba]

Are we now to rename every station on the network such that it could never possibly be confused with any other on the network?

No, just use train numbers. Why not?

 

[zwk500]

No, just use train numbers. Why not?

At the level of confusion suggested by the poster I was replying to, train number 471 will be confused with train number 823.

I've stated before that I support train numbers where tickets/reservations etc are allocated to specific trains, and service/pattern numbers where they are not.

 

[miklcct]

At the level of confusion suggested by the poster I was replying to, train number 471 will be confused with train number 823.

I've stated before that I support train numbers where tickets/reservations etc are allocated to specific trains, and service/pattern numbers where they are not.

This is nearly what SWR and GWR do with the timetable data now - SWR is still showing the service number (Southern region headcode) in front of its 455s which matches the data in the timetable. However in the case of GWR, the number shown on the front of the train isn't the one used in the timetable (e.g. GWR shows 01 for the Reading - Basingstoke service on train but 07 in the timetable data).

I wish the practice of showing such numbers on the 455s won't become a legacy when the stock is gone.

 

[railwaytrack]

What was shown on the departure boards at Brighton, though? In many of these cases they don't show the termination point (e.g. Reading-Paddington TfL Rail services are shown as "Ealing Broadway" at Reading): did they show "Woking" or something like that?

The destination boards at Brighton showed "London Waterloo". Similarly the destination boards at London Waterloo and Clapham Junction showed "Brighton". They should have displayed them different like GWR does at Oxford and Reading (like to "Ealing Broadway" or "Acton Main Line" instead) but they didn't. I remember using both the Northbound and Southbound and the correct destination was always shown. Maybe they thought it didn't matter as it was just one train each day in each direction. But it would certainly be a pain to get on the wrong one that takes almost four times as long as the fast train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2022 ==

Is that because those through trains to Bexhill, London Bridge, Brighton or wherever, which call at Hampden Park (platform 2) on their way to Eastbourne, don't necessarily call at Hampden Park again (platform 1) a second time having called/reversed at Eastbourne?

(Or alternatively, if having skip-stopped platform 2 at Hampden Park on their way into Eastbourne, will then call at platform 1 on their way back out again).

Do any through trains make a "double call" at Hampden Park?

Yes indeed that is correct.

There are actually plenty of trains that call at Hampden Park twice but the timetable is very random though.

Some of the Brighton/London to Hastings/Ore trains call at Hampden Park before Eastbourne but not after.

Some of the Brighton/London to Hastings/Ore trains call at Hampden Park after Eastbourne but not before.

Some of the Brighton/London to Hastings/Ore trains call at Hampden Park both before Eastbourne and after Eastbourne as well.

The same goes for in the opposite direction.

It is very confusing. They should really just make every train call there twice. It would make it a lot simpler for passengers.

 

[A S Leib]

The destination boards at Brighton showed "London Waterloo". Similarly the destination boards at London Waterloo and Clapham Junction showed "Brighton". They should have displayed them different like GWR does at Oxford and Reading (like to "Ealing Broadway" or "Acton Main Line" instead) but they didn'

Or Waterloo / Victoria (London)?

 

[railwaytrack]

Or Waterloo / Victoria (London)?

I think ideally the Northbound one should have been shown as either "Woking" or "Basingstoke" and the Southbound one should have been shown as either "Havant" or "Fareham" as all other destinations would have been quicker taking a different train.

 

[zwk500]

I think ideally the Northbound one should have been shown as either "Woking" or "Basingstoke" and the Southbound one should have been shown as either "Havant" or "Fareham" as all other destinations would have been quicker taking a different train.

How many users of the service at Clapham Junction were likely to be unfamiliar enough with the station that they would have looked for trains to Brighton instead of just heading to their usual platform and did the permanent Platform locator include Brighton from Platforms 9/11 as well as 13/15?

 

[Western Sunset]

The destination boards at Brighton showed "London Waterloo". Similarly the destination boards at London Waterloo and Clapham Junction showed "Brighton". They should have displayed them different like GWR does at Oxford and Reading (like to "Ealing Broadway" or "Acton Main Line" instead) but they didn't. I remember using both the Northbound and Southbound and the correct destination was always shown. Maybe they thought it didn't matter as it was just one train each day in each direction. But it would certainly be a pain to get on the wrong one that takes almost four times as long as the fast train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2022 ==


Yes indeed that is correct.

There are actually plenty of trains that call at Hampden Park twice but the timetable is very random though.

Some of the Brighton/London to Hastings/Ore trains call at Hampden Park before Eastbourne but not after.

Some of the Brighton/London to Hastings/Ore trains call at Hampden Park after Eastbourne but not before.

Some of the Brighton/London to Hastings/Ore trains call at Hampden Park both before Eastbourne and after Eastbourne as well.

The same goes for in the opposite direction.

It is very confusing. They should really just make every train call there twice. It would make it a lot simpler for passengers.

I thought that was where Scotland played its home matches...

 

[swt_passenger]

How many users of the service at Clapham Junction were likely to be unfamiliar enough with the station that they would have looked for trains to Brighton instead of just heading to their usual platform and did the permanent Platform locator include Brighton from Platforms 9/11 as well as 13/15?

At stupid o’clock in the morning when it actually ran, I suspect about zero. Without searching my old CWNs I’m pretty sure that (before it ceased entirely) there wasn’t an up service that ran all the way through, so that direction seems only a hypothetical problem…

 

[railwaytrack]

How many users of the service at Clapham Junction were likely to be unfamiliar enough with the station that they would have looked for trains to Brighton instead of just heading to their usual platform and did the permanent Platform locator include Brighton from Platforms 9/11 as well as 13/15?

I doubt there would be many people. Maybe a few unfamiliar people who did not use trains in that area much. But i doubt it caused much of a problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2022 ==

At stupid o’clock in the morning when it actually ran, I suspect about zero. Without searching my old CWNs I’m pretty sure that (before it ceased entirely) there wasn’t an up service that ran all the way through, so that direction seems only a hypothetical problem…

There was definitely one daily Northbound through service and one daily Southbound through service in each direction. I clearly remember them both. Although i believe the Northbound service was withdrawn quite a few years before the Southbound service was withdrawn.