The dates mentioned may be extended again, there's talk of another 6 month extension for the 175s lease. Both types of traction will need to run simultaneously for some time, there's always delays with new rolling stock.
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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.
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Bob Price
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197010 and 197001 were both out on test today. Their numbers are really difficult to read but I stop the webcam to read the numbers.
Wouldn't be at all surprised to see it extended again, that's the idea with the 197s in hopefully July and to keep all units until at least the end of the school holidays for capacity
There is also planned to be an extra 4 car Mk4 set (still 2 from 4 in traffic) too make those less susceptible to being replaced by units.
After last summers chaos it would be logical to keep the 175s until all of the 197s are in service, there a lot of units to commission so it will take some time to get the whole fleet up and running
As far as I am aware the 175s do not yet have a new home to go to, so no other TOC is going to be kept waiting for their arrival if TfW require them to remain a while longer.
Don’t know about a typical unit, but a 197 guzzles the stuff
They are saying there's engine software issues, maybe tfw will have to get premium quality diesel.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I continue to be baffled by the commercial implications of all these extended introductions/retained fleets, compared to what was contracted.
Somebody, somewhere, is losing a lot of money on these deals, either the manufacturer, the Rosco/funder, the TOC or the government (ie us taxpayers).
I think I can guess who will end up paying the bills.
Philip
On Moderation
They still have to pay the cost of leasing the units for longer. Also, since they can't stay based at Chester once 197s start to get into service, Longsight would be the only suitable nearby depot for maintenance, but no TfW traincrew are based in Manchester so they'd be of lite use to TfW once based there.
I've heard it's 1 x 197 into service and 1x 175 out to longsight is the plan, but tfw don't pay for a unit until its accepted after the testing and fault free mileage. So tfw aren't footing the lease bills for them, the testing is completed by rog drivers and caf pay that bill aswell.
No 197s have completed the fault free mileage yet and there's quite a few quality issues that will need resolving before they come into service.
From what I've seen and experienced the 197s are good units, with lots of positives and have a much improved passenger experience for the customers.
Depends on a lot of factors but in theory could be cost neutral for the TOC. TOC will only start paying leasing cost once they accept the unit, they should have factored in the gradual introduction of new and withdrawal of old into their costing so all it does is shift that timeline. Of course where they have accepted the new train but taken longer than planned to introduce into service the TOC will be at cost, unless there is a build issue which is only found post-acceptance (e.g. stress fractures).
If there are bodyshell issues then experiences with the class 397 and 331 EMUs (also from the Civity family) are presumably also relevant. Anything to be learnt from those fleets?
At the start of the franchise the 175s were due to leave (ie. go off lease) on 31/05/2022, that's only around 55 days away. The 158s were due to leave 31/10/2022.
The 197 is a upgrade from a 195 and different spec / software than the 196, the emus are different beasts. Each fleet is an upgrade from the last with different specifications, so they have there own issues as a result of this.
The 197s have the latest generation MTU powerpacks and DPFs, so Euro 5 or 6 emissions software.
They have great potential compared with tfws existing units, such as faster / more economical / better emissions/ better customer experience etc
Regarding the 175s the lease has been extended as there's no way there will be enough 197s to cover services by September, there's just too much testing / training. So tfw change there plans and timescales because of this.
We will see the 158s for a while longer than planned aswell, there will be a number retained for the cambrian as introducing the ertms 197s will be a complicated process. 197003 has the ertms system isolated and can be seen on the crewe to Salop training runs.
krus_aragon
Established Member
While things have clearly changed since (lot o ddwr o dan y bont ers hynny), it'll be interesting to see how much time there'll be between the 175 and 158 fleets leaving in the end.
greyman42's question mentioned "Spanish bodyshells"; while the EMUs are going to be different beasts from a fit-out perspective, 'bodyshells' to me means the actual steel/aluminium (the latter in the case of the Civity fleet I understand) 'walls' of the trains - the manufacturing process for which is presumably very similar, particularly between the 331s, 195s and 197s which I believe have the same door and window layout.
Is it confirmed that unit has ETCS already fitted then?
Yes 003 has ETCS fitted but it's running with the system isolated at this time, the unit can be seen on training runs between Crewe and Shrewsbury.
With it being isolated the screen only displays the speedometer as a default, there's no logging into level 0 as is done with the tdw 158s.
Thanks for the confirmation.
There's some pics of another unnumbered 197 on its way to Donnington, there's quite a few sets there now but only 1 unit is crewe gresty yard. Recently there's been 2 x 197s in Chester yard and 1 for training at crewe lnwr.
There's problems with finding space to store the 197s, especially as there's so much ongoing training whilst running services.
It looks like Holyhead will be having quite (7 or 8) a few units stored there regularly once the lines clearance issues have been signed off so the 197s can go past Conwy. There's a few more locations being looked at such as Llandudno sidings and bache sidings at Chester etc
There's problems with finding space to store the 197s, especially as there's so much ongoing training whilst running services.
It looks like Holyhead will be having quite (7 or 8) a few units stored there regularly once the lines clearance issues have been signed off so the 197s can go past Conwy. There's a few more locations being looked at such as Llandudno sidings and bache sidings at Chester etc
I've chatted to a member of the 197 team and caf are looking at Bimodel versions of 197s that could appear in the future.
One idea is a 4 car unit of which 2 are dmu 197 and 2 are a 331 emu together, this could be on future solution they said.
The other idea is just having small battery pack cars added to 2 car sets, it's good to hear these conversations are happening.
Jacob Porrett
Established Member
**Mr Donnington Update (8/4/22)**
The 197/0 that was half a unit has now received it's other half unfortunately no numbers. Another half of a 197/0 has also appeared as well. The list is now: 197006/008/007/103/197/0/009/012/197/0 and 197/0. 197s in total is 9. 8 1970/s and 1 197/1 at the moment.
The 197/0 that was half a unit has now received it's other half unfortunately no numbers. Another half of a 197/0 has also appeared as well. The list is now: 197006/008/007/103/197/0/009/012/197/0 and 197/0. 197s in total is 9. 8 1970/s and 1 197/1 at the moment.
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krus_aragon
Established Member
I've secretly thought they'd have been using Llandudno Jn sidings for a while, given the clearing work done there a few years back.
Is it Llandudno Junction or Town's sidings that are currently under consideration? (I'd not considered the latter at all!)
Llandudno Junction will be used for the slate traffic we've been told, so there's no chance of that being used.
But Holyhead will be used and possibly Llandudno town sidings, there's rumours the bache loop at Chester is being considered.
SuperLuke2334
Established Member
Can't remember if it's already been mentioned, but in terms of driver comfort, how do the 197s compare to the current fleet?
The 197s are a huge move forward in comfort for drivers, the seats have multiple ways to be adjusted. They are on a pedestal like a 175 so you don't have all the vibration going through your back.
The DSD pedal has height adjustment, there's foot heaters and an air con / heating that actually works. The hvac works a bit too well though and needs some mods.
The civicity is a huge step up from what tfw presently uses, drivers even get a bin and cup holder. Unfortunately the 2nd man's seat has height and lumbar support issues that will be resolved before they get accepted.
Jacob Porrett
Established Member
Won't no until we've tried them out.
craigybagel
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Oct 2012
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- 5,826
"We've"?
They're as big a leap ahead of 175s as the 175s are from Sprinters. I can't wait to be driving them regularly, it's going to make 3 hour drives so much more comfortable.
And with Sprinters still run extensively there must be an operator somewhere desperate for the 175s when TfW are finished with them.
175001
On Moderation
Plan is to stable up to 5 197s there when they are in service. This will eliminate the ECS from Chester and Crewe in the long run.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Surely that is a physical impossibility ? AIUI Chester depot is to be handed over to be a facility for maintaining CAF 197s so the twenty plus 175s will need to be gone to make room. I see a Crown Point type situation where the existing GA fleet was having to run the service whilst Stadlers were introduced, resulting in new sidings being laid on a preserved railway. How much room is there at Oswestry !!!!!
Well there is some at Gobowen if you cut up the pacers sat there. The level crossing over the A5 is officially closed and can't be used without a road closure. I suppose you could store a few units in the stub of the branch.