Scotrail, Abellio and April

[Stathern Jc]

It would be very interesting to take a straw poll of LNER Aberdeen passengers as to where they are going and why they didn't take SR...

It isn't just Aberdeen passengers, and it's not as if it's something new or rare either.

When my daughter was at Uni in Glasgow and I had a day visit I would always look to fit around days when there was a good price Advance First to and from Stirling on the Chieftain, and then get a local ticket to connect onwards to Queen St rather than do the whole journey by Scotrail and only get a trolley coffee. The times of the one daily alternative did fit well for that though.

As #Wynd says, a similar poll of travellers on the Chieftain would be interesting if not surprising, and the prices are usually attractive too.

 

[Wynd]

Murrayfield isn't a train the last time I looked...

You suggested rugby fans are more troublesome than soccer fans, which, is contrary to the evidence. Now you are saying this? Where are you going here, what is it you arent telling me?

It isn't just Aberdeen passengers, and it's not as if it's something new or rare either.

When my daughter was at Uni in Glasgow and I had a day visit I would always look to fit around days when there was a good price Advance First to and from Stirling on the Chieftain, and then get a local ticket to connect onwards to Queen St rather than do the whole journey by Scotrail and only get a trolley coffee. The times of the one daily alternative did fit well for that though.

As #Wynd says, a similar poll of travellers on the Chieftain would be interesting if not surprising, and the prices are usually attractive too.

A good point well made.

The crushing irony of all this, is that the whole point of SR taking HST was to defend the Scottish market from the incursion of LNER and its superior offering taking passengers. Sorry, a little loaded there but in principle, that was the thinking.


Given that SR have dragged their feet and made an utter shambles of the HST, quite an achievement for a machine that has been a groundbreaking success everywhere else its gone, is it any wonder that so many travelers are choosing the competition?

The very serious point under all this of course is, how much revenue is Scotrail losing by continuing, belligerently, to run 170/158 when customers clearly want the HST or Azuma?

Its not as though it cant be ascertained what LNER is making north of the border...its only a matter of time before someone looks in to it.

Its fast transpiring in to one of those situations where its difficult to have sympathy for SR.

 

[Falcon1200]

The crushing irony of all this, is that the whole point of SR taking HST was to defend the Scottish market from the incursion of LNER and its superior offering taking passengers.

Not sure how that figures, considering that LNER run precisely one train a day to Inverness, four or five to Aberdeen, and none at all to Glasgow Queen St ?

 

[Wynd]

It transpires that TS found passengers willing to wait for East Coast trains in Aberdeen for intercity journeys within Scotland. Anecdotally that is still the case.

 

[Falcon1200]

It transpires that TS found passengers willing to wait for East Coast trains in Aberdeen for intercity journeys within Scotland. Anecdotally that is still the case.

Interesting, but that can only apply for journeys on the Aberdeen-Dundee-Edinburgh axis, and surely only when there is an LNER service within a reasonable timescale; There is no LNER departure from Aberdeen between 0952 and 1452, or 1452 and 1818 !

 

[Davester50]

You suggested rugby fans are more troublesome than soccer fans, which, is contrary to the evidence. Now you are saying this? Where are you going here, what is it you arent telling me?

I really don't know why I have to justify my opinion to you anyway, but I find your false equivilence of stadium and train behaviours quite odd.

On trains, the rugby passengers to Murrayfield can be equally as "boisterous" as football to Hampden, and there's little or no BTP compared with football trains. Both sports should remain dry trains.
And I know this from first hand experience, regularly attending both national stadiums for the respective games.

Club football cannot be compared with the club rugby scene, and the Old Firm are a different world from the rest of the SPFL.

 

[Editrain2]

Jobs are up today… quite annoyed they are only accepting applications from 18-24s age group though…

 

[Clansman]

You suggested rugby fans are more troublesome than soccer fans, which, is contrary to the evidence. Now you are saying this? Where are you going here, what is it you arent telling me?


A good point well made.

The crushing irony of all this, is that the whole point of SR taking HST was to defend the Scottish market from the incursion of LNER and its superior offering taking passengers. Sorry, a little loaded there but in principle, that was the thinking.


Given that SR have dragged their feet and made an utter shambles of the HST, quite an achievement for a machine that has been a groundbreaking success everywhere else its gone, is it any wonder that so many travelers are choosing the competition?

The very serious point under all this of course is, how much revenue is Scotrail losing by continuing, belligerently, to run 170/158 when customers clearly want the HST or Azuma?

Its not as though it cant be ascertained what LNER is making north of the border...its only a matter of time before someone looks in to it.

Its fast transpiring in to one of those situations where its difficult to have sympathy for SR.

Part of me wonders how much the past 30 years have played a part in passenger habits (old habits die hard as they say).

It's gotten to the stage now where LNER could literally run 158s kitted out with a buffet and first class, and people would still opt for them over a ScotRail HST. Why? Because 30 years or so of the perception of premium that comes with long distance operators will keep you organising your time around their twice daily services because 9 coaches and a snazzy marketing campaign gives you an illusion of grandeur for no apparent reason regardless of the quality of the ride.

Probably the same reason why some prefer paying 200 quid to fly in a BA a320 to Amsterdam over a 20 quid flight on an EasyJet a320. Or the classic Waitrose over Aldi/Lidl, regardless of product quality.

Not to say there aren't legitimate reasons for wanting LNER (such as first class fares being the same for LNER and ScotRail on domestic Scottish routes that you could make back in complementary bevvy alone!), but if anything it has to be looked at how much loyalty comes in to it

 

[Blindtraveler]

I certainly have no loyalty to either operator although if given the choice between citylink, LNER first class or ScotRail with a 170 on Edinburgh to Inverness for example, it would not be ScotRail that one

 

[lachlan]

Personally I'll take whatever train runs at the time I want to travel. The only time Ive specifically chosen LNER was when going to Kirkcaldy or Inverkeithing (for North Queensferry). The ScotRail Aberdeen trains rarely if ever stop at these stops now. I'm sure they used to, but I could be wrong.

I reckon some folks will be choosing LNER over ScotRail so they can freely drink alcohol on board.

 

[Davester50]

Personally I'll take whatever train runs at the time I want to travel.

Same

The only time Ive specifically chosen LNER was when going to Kirkcaldy or Inverkeithing (for North Queensferry). The ScotRail Aberdeen trains rarely if ever stop at these stops now. I'm sure they used to, but I could be wrong.

They used to until, I reckon about 4/5 years ago when they sped up the expresses, and also put on the local stopping services.
Non-stop from mostly from Leuchars, (sometimes Dundee or Cupar) to Haymarket is one good thing that came about in the Abellio franchise, and there seems to be slack in some schedules as it's often a slow run in from Dalmeny to Haymarket.

For me, Carnoustie's easier when I'm just leaving the car there, but Dundee when the wife drops me off on her way to work. so the only time there's a real choice is in the morning from Dundee between 09:08 to 09:45 with LNER - Cross Country - ScotRail services.

 

[lachlan]

Same

They used to until, I reckon about 4/5 years ago when they sped up the expresses, and also put on the local stopping services.
Non-stop from mostly from Leuchars, (sometimes Dundee or Cupar) to Haymarket is one good thing that came about in the Abellio franchise, and there seems to be slack in some schedules as it's often a slow run in from Dalmeny to Haymarket.

For me, Carnoustie's easier when I'm just leaving the car there, but Dundee when the wife drops me off on her way to work. so the only time there's a real choice is in the morning from Dundee between 09:08 to 09:45 with LNER - Cross Country - ScotRail services.

Stonehaven has also been dropped from the Glasgow services to reduce journey times. I don't know how much they've reduced journey times from Aberdeen to the central belt, it's not enough that I've noticed.

To be honest it's disappointing to me that we're dropping stops to improve journey times, rather than improving line speeds and capacity. Not sure on the accuracy of these reports but the press claim there was £218 million of spending announced in 2008 and in 2016 that has yet to be spent. That being said the hourly stopper recently introduced between Inverurie and Montrose has been very positive for Portlethen and Laurencekirk which previously had a rather sporadic service.

 

[Davester50]

I think the problem is the splitting of the local stoppers at Montrose and Arbroath.
Travelling from Dundee north to not Aberdeen stations often required a change at Montrose, in not a great location. That northbound platform is a bit chilly!
If there were passing loops in a few places, a through stopping service between Inverurie to Aberdeen, Dundee and on to Edinburgh instead of the current (separated) two would be far better.

The express services are 15 - 20 minutes faster from Dundee.
Looking at today's timetable, the 0822 from Dundee takes 65 minutes to run non-stop to Haymarket, while the stopper behind leaves at 0829 and takes 85 minutes. (The later 1020 with one stop takes 71 minutes).

I don't have access to pre-speed up timetables, but from Dundee it does seem quicker now, and with a few improvements, quite probably quicker with the slow run ins from Dalmeny. I can understand that from Aberdeen it may not seem much of a difference though.

 

[MacCookie]

To be honest it's disappointing to me that we're dropping stops to improve journey times, rather than improving line speeds and capacity. Not sure on the accuracy of these reports but the press claim there was £218 million of spending announced in 2008 and in 2016 that has yet to be spent. That being said the hourly stopper recently introduced between Inverurie and Montrose has been very positive for Portlethen and Laurencekirk which previously had a rather sporadic service.

Transport Minister visits Aberdeen to Central Belt Enhancement Project

scotlandsrailway.com

THURSDAY 30TH SEPTEMBER 2021

TRANSPORT MINISTER VISITS ABERDEEN TO CENTRAL BELT ENHANCEMENT PROJECT​

Transport Minister, Graeme Dey visited the team delivering the Aberdeen to Central Belt Enhancement Project and heard first-hand about the next phase of works which is due to commence next month.

Mr Dey had the opportunity to see one of the ground drilling rigs which will be used to undertake geological investigations to inform development of proposals to enhance the railway between Aberdeen and the Central Belt. The Minister also had the opportunity to discuss the upcoming works with the project team, an alliance made up of Network Rail and Siemens.
The project – which is being funded by the Scottish Government, alongside the Aberdeen City Region Deal, as part of ongoing investment in Scotland’s Railway – will improve connectivity in the region and reduce journey times.
Mr Dey said: “This project is vital for Aberdeen and the wider North East region, so I was delighted to be able to come along to meet the team that will be carrying out this work and understand the importance the investigatory work will have to inform the design. It’s great to hear that some of the work including ecology surveys is already underway.
“Scotland’s Railway is an integral part of Scotland’s social and economic infrastructure and this project will be supporting communities, businesses and the environment in the North East.
“Improved capacity and faster services will be great for passengers, but the scheme will also deliver improved capabilities for freight services enabling further growth in this important sector.”

Mr Dey added: “I was really pleased to hear that the site and ground investigation work is being carried out in a way that it will inform both the enhancements projects and the future electrification scheme, delivering efficiencies for both. This is great to hear given our commitment to decarbonising the passenger railway in Scotland by 2035. I look forward to returning to see the team in the near future.”
Speaking from the event at LNER’S Clayhills depot adjacent to Aberdeen Station, Matthew Spence, director of route business development and sponsorship for Scotland’s Railway, said: “We were delighted to be able to welcome Mr Dey along to meet the team at this important milestone. The works that are due to commence will not only improve passenger and freight services, but importantly support the delivery of our ambitious plans to decarbonise passenger rail services by 2035.
“Construction is expected to take place between 2022 and 2026 and it’s important to point out this scheme will have benefits for the wider North East region with proposals for Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose and Aberdeen stations including lengthened platforms, enhanced capability and enabling additional and longer services.”
Warrick Dent, safety and operations director for LNER, said: “Aberdeen is a very popular part of LNER’s route, so it’s exciting to see work getting underway aimed at improving journey times. We share and support the Scottish Government’s commitment to decarbonisation, as do many of our customers, and we look forward to this important work progressing.”

 

[Goldfish62]

It's just a shame they seem to want to cut frequencies, which will make investment go to waste.

Not really. The infrastructure is there when (hopefully) there's a case for increasing frequencies again.

 

[Deltic1961]

By which time people will have moved to alternative modes of transport.

Transport Scotland keep tweeting about reducing car journeys by 20 percent by 2030. Unless they expect us to walk everywhere then public transport will have to be far more flexible and less expensive.

I'm sure it's just another SNP scheme that will disappear in to the long grass like most others

 

[Ex-controller]

By which time people will have moved to alternative modes of transport.

Transport Scotland keep tweeting about reducing car journeys by 20 percent by 2030. Unless they expect us to walk everywhere then public transport will have to be far more flexible and less expensive.

I'm sure it's just another SNP scheme that will disappear in to the long grass like most others

I think the plan is that they expect us to walk or cycle for local journeys instead.

 

[diamond chap]

Transport Scotland keep tweeting about reducing car journeys by 20 percent by 2030. Unless they expect us to walk everywhere then public transport will have to be far more flexible and less expensive.

They don't. They refer to reducing vehicle-kilometres by 20%. Subtle but important difference.

 

[numtot12345]

Re. ABZ- CB, I thought one of the reasons for delay in spending the money is that investigation of dualling montrose single track section saved only a couple of mins and therefore not good value for money (surely it would have helped capacity and reliability?)...and that the biggest improvements would need to be made towards the CB...therefore the money earmarked for Aberdeen would technically be getting spent elsewhere in Scotland and probably benefits other routes/areas as well. Not that it should matter really, although I note politicians are at pains to point out this fact.

 

[Christmas]

They don't. They refer to reducing vehicle-kilometres by 20%. Subtle but important difference.

I now have to use my car to travel into work every Saturday morning as they withdrew my first train. They reinstated it Monday to Friday after an uproar but never bothered about the Saturday.
It's the same in the evenings. I now drive rather than wait up to an hour for a train home. Pre Covid I'd have had three trains home within that hour.
This May timetable better be a return to more frequent trains. I have no idea what the motivation is to cut frequencies, whether Transport Scotland still thinks that people are hibernating or if it's only to cut costs.
Someone in authority from either Transport Scotland or ScotRail must read this forum so it's high time that they took notice.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I suspect but I'm very happy to be proved wrong if someone can do so that there has been some deliberate using of data from a period where we were either locked down completely or or there were few reasons for people to be travelling due to assorted restrictions or higher case numbers or both to justify the death of a thousand cuts situation we find ourselves in both now and after the timetable change. If true, then this is is in my view extremely naughty and I would have said that there was a case for increasing both frequencies and train length now as from what I've observed the majority of roots have turned to something near pre pandemic levels of usage, or certainly levels of usage seen in the last five years when we did see a steady and welcome increased to a lot of services and the speeding up of many long-distance ones as

 

[Deltic1961]

I still think the government restrictions in Scotland are keeping people indoors and socially restricted.

Aberdeen as a city is still pretty dead in general but we're in Newcastle just now and it's crazy busy. You would never even know Covid was ever a thing down here.

 

[Davester50]

I still think the government restrictions in Scotland are keeping people indoors and socially restricted.

I think that's true for work, Covid is a big problem, but for entertainment and sport Covid magically goes away...

 

[route101]

Is catering back on Scotrail?

 

[Jordan1296]

Is catering back on Scotrail?

Only on selected routes/times at the moment, but it is a phased re-introduction.

 

[ld0595]

I suspect but I'm very happy to be proved wrong if someone can do so that there has been some deliberate using of data from a period where we were either locked down completely or or there were few reasons for people to be travelling due to assorted restrictions or higher case numbers or both to justify the death of a thousand cuts situation we find ourselves in both now and after the timetable change. If true, then this is is in my view extremely naughty and I would have said that there was a case for increasing both frequencies and train length now as from what I've observed the majority of roots have turned to something near pre pandemic levels of usage, or certainly levels of usage seen in the last five years when we did see a steady and welcome increased to a lot of services and the speeding up of many long-distance ones as

I'd completely agree with you there. It was quite evident when Scotrail did the "Fit for the future" survey that they deliberately set questions to get the answers they want. One question in particular stood out for me:



(Image shows Screenshot from the Scotrail Fit From the Future survey. There are four options which ask whether commuters will eventually work from home full time, some of the time or whether their employer is closing offices or relocating to a smaller premises.)

Firstly, what exactly does "some of the time" mean here? One day per week, four days per week, once every two weeks? It's a very vaguely worded question and would have been better had they asked if commuters will work from home 1-2 days per week, 2-3 days per week or 4-5 days per week or less. Secondly, there wasn't actually an option to say you'll commute again full time which is still the reality for a large portion of the workforce. I asked Scotrail about this and got a vague answer about it just applying to the scenarios listed. It was quite evident that this survey intended to be vague enough to justify the continued cuts.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Ultimately I think we're in a situation where the Scottish government would very much like to say that nobody is using the railway so they won't bother investing in it. The already elderly sprinters and museum piece intercity fleet along with most of the electrics and the 17th will be forced to carry on until they're literally falling to bits or can't be repaired any longer, the the timetable will be a bit like a Sunday in the 90s on a permanent basis, the bus and coach companies will commence pissing themself with laughter whilst recruiting hundreds of drivers and ordering fleets of vehicles to carry all the passengers ScotRail doesn't want to convey any longer and the used car industry will rebound in a way that it hasn't done for many a long year.


Great way to launch a further bid for independence, I don't think. Even my neighbour who is as hardline a supporter of another referendum as you can get says that the chances will be severely weakened if they continue to make public idiots of themselves over the railways and faerrys and pretty much anything else to do with transport

 

[Wynd]

To counter the LNER 3 trains a day to Aberdeen piece. There may only be 3, but, they do leave at predictable times and have done so for over 20 years. Many people know the times off by heart.
The service level is predictable.
The machine used is predictable.

In short, you are getting a guaranteed minimum level of service and that is what people want.

This is what the HST was supposed to bring to Scotrail, but it has not happened, and so many passengers are still using the LNER service which is having an impact on Scotrails income.

 

[Scotrail12]

My sister is travelling with LNER from Aberdeen and apparently it's only £30 for her, less than half of what I paid last week.

Come on!! It's crystal clear that ScotRail take the piscine with their prices and service.

 

[InOban]

Since most of their passengers would join or had left at Edinburgh, the seats would otherwise be empty. XC do/did the same - I remember seeing a queue waiting to join at Waverley to join a train to Glasgow, and when I asked about this on this forum, it was pointed out that XC tickets were much cheaper than scotrail.