Coventry to Southampton - No "Any Permitted Route" fares?

[MKB]

This seems strange. All the return fares from Coventry to Southampton Central are either "via London" or "not via London". The same is true for Nuneaton to Southampton Central. brfares isn't showing any "Any Permitted Route" fares.

I want to go out via London and back not via London. Can I do it by buying one of the routes and then excessing for the other, or is there some other way? Or do I have to buy much-more-expensive singles each way (which I know I can get down in price with a few splits)? Advance tickets are no good on this occasion as I need some flexibility on times.

 

[AlterEgo]

I want to go out via London and back not via London. Can I do it by buying one of the routes and then excessing for the other?

Yes. Buy the cheaper one and you may excess in one direction.

 

[MKB]

Thanks! I'll do that.

 

[jfollows]

Or buy the one (from Coventry only, not Nuneaton) via London and you can use this via Reading, however this might not be understood to be valid by some staff you encounter, so it's probably better to do the excess process if you can.

 

[Watershed]

This seems strange. All the return fares from Coventry to Southampton Central are either "via London" or "not via London". The same is true for Nuneaton to Southampton Central. brfares isn't showing any "Any Permitted Route" fares.

I want to go out via London and back not via London. Can I do it by buying one of the routes and then excessing for the other, or is there some other way? Or do I have to buy much-more-expensive singles each way (which I know I can get down in price with a few splits)? Advance tickets are no good on this occasion as I need some flexibility on times.

It's not really strange if you know the background. The fares have been route-specific for at least the last 26 years (and likely quite a bit longer than that, but I don't have the data to check). Many of these routes were introduced around the time that privatisation was starting, to allow each BR Train Operating Unit (the precursor to today's TOCs) to maximise their revenue and ensure the most accurate allocation of revenue - as for example InterCity CrossCountry would get (almost) all of the revenue of a 'not via London' fare, whereas under an 'Any Permitted' fare they would only get a proportion of it.

Luckily, you can work around these restrictions by buying the cheaper fare and then excessing the relevant portion to the more expensive route. This will normally cost half the difference. However, whilst there is no penalty for obtaining the excess onboard, many TOCs now issue their staff with ticket machines which use Printed Roll Tickets (PRT, aka "bog roll"). These machines are often unable to excess to or from a ticket which has a Maltese Cross (+via London). Therefore it may well be worth obtaining your excess at the ticket office prior to travel, to avoid any potential 'difficulties' onboard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2022 ==

Or buy the one via London and you can use this via Reading, however this might not be understood to be valid by some staff you encounter, so it's probably better to do the excess process if you can.

That would be valid if buying from Coventry, but not from Nuneaton (where the only valid routes to London are via Rugby or High Wycombe). The not via London ticket is marginally cheaper from Coventry.

 

[jfollows]

That would be valid if buying from Coventry, but not from Nuneaton (where the only valid routes to London are via Rugby or High Wycombe). The not via London ticket is marginally cheaper from Coventry.

Agreed, thank you for clarifying my post, which I have also edited.

 

[route101]

Southampton - Coventry./Birmingham is one route I struggle to find cheap fares.

 

[FenMan]

Southampton - Coventry./Birmingham is one route I struggle to find cheap fares.

If you you mean a day trip travelling in the morning peak, the through fare is easily, and massively, undercut by splitting tickets.

£186.10 : Through fare for Southampton - Coventry. Route: Not via London i.e. using Cross Country.

As opposed to:-
£24.20 : Southampton - Reading
£28.00 : Reading - Banbury
£16.50 : Banbury - Coventry
£68.70 : Total

A saving of £117.40 (63%) compared with the through fare.

Which is one way of saying Cross Country's pricing jumped the shark long ago.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If you you mean a day trip travelling in the morning peak, the through fare is easily, and massively, undercut by splitting tickets.

£186.10 : Through fare for Southampton - Coventry. Route: Not via London i.e. using Cross Country.

As opposed to:-
£24.20 : Southampton - Reading
£28.00 : Reading - Banbury
£16.50 : Banbury - Coventry
£68.70 : Total

A saving of £117.40 (63%) compared with the through fare.

Which is one way of saying Cross Country's pricing jumped the shark long ago.

Cheaper to do (split) walk-up day singles for a period peak hours return for this flow as well, presumably?

 

[FenMan]

Cheaper to do (split) walk-up day singles for a period peak hours return for this flow as well, presumably?

Yes, buying anytime singles out and back using the same splitting points comes to £134.40, a saving of £51.70 (27%).

 

[yorkie]

Cheaper to do (split) walk-up day singles for a period peak hours return for this flow as well, presumably?

Trainsplit should offer the cheapest combination; sometimes anytime day singles do need to be part of the cheapest combination if there is no suitable period return, and it's very time consuming to try to calculate it manually.

It used to be the case that people would need to spend time calculating the cheapest combination but websites take care of this and you will still get the benefit of one PDF covering the whole journey, and one through itinerary, so there is no disadvantage to the customer.

 

[FenMan]

To put this into perspective, XCountry are asking for £207.40 to travel at peak times between Southampton and Birmingham. The return journey by road is 284 miles, so that equates to £0.73 a mile.

At peak hours, the journey time by car is longer than the core Southampton Central - Birmingham New Street rail journey, but it will still be competitive when the "last mile" at each end is taken into account.

The marginal cost of using a car for the same journey, assuming fossils fuels are used, is c.20p per mile = £56.80.

That leaves a gap of £150.60 to cover the other costs of using a car for the journey and being a passenger rather than a driver (reduced stress levels, ability to do work en route, etc). But, while non-marginal costs of using a car, such as depreciation, are significant, they're nowhere near that significant.

I do wonder how many anytime returns are sold for this journey. It's distress pricing for those with no alternative and it's likely very few paying their own way would be tempted to use the train. Meanwhile the corporate landscape has changed massively, perhaps permanently. This pricing model may have worked pre-COVID, but how will it work now?

 

[MKB]

I am travelling with my partner, so, although we get a 34% Two Together discount on off-peak journeys, the car costs are the same for two as one, making those XC prices even less favourable compared to the car.

 

[route101]

Even the advance tickets are expensive on this route, £60 one way with railcard anyone. There not a decent alternative either, coach is infrequent.

 

[py_megapixel]

To put this into perspective, XCountry are asking for £207.40 to travel at peak times between Southampton and Birmingham. The return journey by road is 284 miles, so that equates to £0.73 a mile.

At peak hours, the journey time by car is longer than the core Southampton Central - Birmingham New Street rail journey, but it will still be competitive when the "last mile" at each end is taken into account.

The marginal cost of using a car for the same journey, assuming fossils fuels are used, is c.20p per mile = £56.80.

That leaves a gap of £150.60 to cover the other costs of using a car for the journey and being a passenger rather than a driver (reduced stress levels, ability to do work en route, etc). But, while non-marginal costs of using a car, such as depreciation, are significant, they're nowhere near that significant.

I do wonder how many anytime returns are sold for this journey. It's distress pricing for those with no alternative and it's likely very few paying their own way would be tempted to use the train. Meanwhile the corporate landscape has changed massively, perhaps permanently. This pricing model may have worked pre-COVID, but how will it work now?

CrossCountry's Off-Peak fares (on all routes) are generally not awfully priced per mile (though I've not seen any I'd describe as 'cheap'!) but the difference between those and the Anytime fares is absolutely insane - frequently more than twice as much as the corresponding off-peak. Also, their off-peak time restriction - "Not valid on any train before 09:30" - is quite onerous by the standards of long-distance journeys.

This is exacerbated by CrossCountry inexplicably setting fares for routes where passengers will almost never use a CrossCountry train, such as Wilmslow-Wolverhampton to give a random example off the top of my head.

 

[mmh]

. Also, their off-peak time restriction - "Not valid on any train before 09:30" - is quite onerous by the standards of long-distance journeys.

That isn't a restriction which is possible, surely? Time restrictions are based on journeys between a station pair. There's no such thing as a peak or off peak *train*, although some TOCs would like you to think so.

 

[py_megapixel]

That isn't a restriction which is possible, surely? Time restrictions are based on journeys between a station pair. There's no such thing as a peak or off peak *train*, although some TOCs would like you to think so.

That's what BRFares says... https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=WML&dest=WVH

This should just be regurgitating the ATOC fares data, surely? NRE's description of restriction code B1 is "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30" but I can't see how the meaning of that is much different.

 

[mmh]

That's what BRFares says... https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=WML&dest=WVH

This should just be regurgitating the ATOC fares data, surely? NRE's description of restriction code B1 is "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30" but I can't see how the meaning of that is much different.

That's a journey between a pair of stations. There will be other tickets between different pairs of stations where off-peak tickets are valid on the same train. Restrictions are tied to tickets, not trains.

 

[nw1]

If you you mean a day trip travelling in the morning peak, the through fare is easily, and massively, undercut by splitting tickets.

£186.10 : Through fare for Southampton - Coventry. Route: Not via London i.e. using Cross Country.

As opposed to:-
£24.20 : Southampton - Reading
£28.00 : Reading - Banbury
£16.50 : Banbury - Coventry
£68.70 : Total

A saving of £117.40 (63%) compared with the through fare.

Which is one way of saying Cross Country's pricing jumped the shark long ago.

Not quite like for like, but - I still remember the days of the child weekend return from Haslemere to Stafford via XC (the famous 0805 Portsmouth-Manchester) costing precisely £10.00 in 1983

 

[swt_passenger]

That's a journey between a pair of stations. There will be other tickets between different pairs of stations where off-peak tickets are valid on the same train. Restrictions are tied to tickets, not trains.

There’s also often a difference between availability times of Offpeak Return and Offpeak Day Return. IIRC XC won’t offer the latter on many of their mid-distance flows, such as Southampton to Birmingham, even though it’s a perfectly reasonable distance for a day trip.

 

[jfollows]

This is exacerbated by CrossCountry inexplicably setting fares for routes where passengers will almost never use a CrossCountry train, such as Wilmslow-Wolverhampton to give a random example off the top of my head.

Absolutely: I split tickets at Stafford to get round this, which prevents me from using one train an hour on the route which I probably didn't want to use anyway. Wilmslow-Birmingham is my more usual ticket and there are huge savings to be made by splitting because XC doesn't set the fares on either of the two split tickets.

 

[mmh]

There’s also often a difference between availability times of Offpeak Return and Offpeak Day Return. IIRC XC won’t offer the latter on many of their mid-distance flows, such as Southampton to Birmingham, even though it’s a perfectly reasonable distance for a day trip.

Sometimes I think these things are down to incompetence more than anything else.

This week's TFW ticketing incompetence: there is no day return between Llandudno Junction and Chester, just a period. But there is a day return between Llandudno Junction and Wrexham, a station further.

 

[nw1]

Absolutely: I split tickets at Stafford to get round this, which prevents me from using one train an hour on the route which I probably didn't want to use anyway. Wilmslow-Birmingham is my more usual ticket and there are huge savings to be made by splitting because XC doesn't set the fares on either of the two split tickets.

I guess this example (Wilmslow-Wolverhampton) is because in the classic XC days under BR, there were perhaps two or three through Wilmslow to Wolverhampton services per day. Certainly the occasional Manchester-Birmingham and beyond was routed that way, though most went via Stoke.

 

[jfollows]

I guess this example (Wilmslow-Wolverhampton) is because in the classic XC days under BR, there were perhaps two or three through Wilmslow to Wolverhampton services per day. Certainly the occasional Manchester-Birmingham and beyond was routed that way, though most went via Stoke.

Even pre-Covid there were some, but now (a) the two services which go through Wilmslow to free up a Stoke<->Manchester peak path don't stop at Wilmslow any more and (b) the other service was a Manchester-Bristol and these don't run currently on any route.
But you're right, in the past there were services under BR.

 

[py_megapixel]

That's a journey between a pair of stations. There will be other tickets between different pairs of stations where off-peak tickets are valid on the same train. Restrictions are tied to tickets, not trains.

I don't dispute that. The restriction text says that that ticket is not valid on any train (that is, not valid at all) before 09:30.

It doesn't change the fact that not being allowed to start your journey before 9:30 is rather onerous, considering XC are a long-distance operator. For example, someone who lives in the Manchester area and wants to travel to Oxford will find themselves unable to arrive until the afternoon, which is pretty poor for a pair of cities which are well under 200 miles apart and have an actual journey time of only 2½ hours.

 

[JonathanH]

Restrictions are tied to tickets, not trains.

They are but Cross Country did a simplification exercise some years ago on many of the flows where they are the faresetter to implement a blanket 0930 restriction for off-peak return fares. The worst examples of this are at places where an hourly service departs just before 0930.

 

[Watershed]

They are but Cross Country did a simplification exercise some years ago on many of the flows where they are the faresetter to implement a blanket 0930 restriction for off-peak return fares. The worst examples of this are at places where an hourly service departs just before 0930.

As far as I'm aware, all of their SVRs now have restriction code 2V (not before 09:30), with the exception of a handful of flows between the East Midlands and the ECML, which remain 8X (not before 05:00).

 

[Class800]

As far as I'm aware, all of their SVRs now have restriction code 2V (not before 09:30), with the exception of a handful of flows between the East Midlands and the ECML, which remain 8X (not before 05:00).

Correct - but the XC guard showed good fares knowledge the other day in passing an 8A off-peak return (priced by TFW) from Exeter St Davids to Cardiff Central leaving at 08.27 without any comment or query. I have the restriction code printout just in case but not needed

 

[py_megapixel]

They are but Cross Country did a simplification exercise some years ago on many of the flows where they are the faresetter to implement a blanket 0930 restriction for off-peak return fares. The worst examples of this are at places where an hourly service departs just before 0930.

As far as I'm aware, all of their SVRs now have restriction code 2V (not before 09:30), with the exception of a handful of flows between the East Midlands and the ECML, which remain 8X (not before 05:00).

Yes, it's a bit of a farce really. I wouldn't really object to it so much if the Anytime fare was reasonable, but it almost never is, so all it's really doing is pushing day-trippers into their cars.

 

[nw1]

Yes, it's a bit of a farce really. I wouldn't really object to it so much if the Anytime fare was reasonable, but it almost never is, so all it's really doing is pushing day-trippers into their cars.

It's particularly crazy if the pre-0930 departure isn't heading through a large city at a busy time. For example would the 0903 (? assuming this is stil the time, it always was) Birmingham to Bournemouth actually encounter a high volume peak traffic south of Birmingham? Perhaps some daytrip traffic to Oxford, some shopping traffic from Banbury to Oxford, or mid-morning business meeting traffic to Oxford or Reading - but enough to warrant a restriction?