New cheap fares to Hull

[Class800]

It also means that HT's liability for delay compensation will be reduced, as it is calculated using the value of the relevant portion.

Good point - hadn't thought of that. It seems common on some Scotrail urban routes to only have returns

 

[Starmill]

If same price, might as well just sell returns, and either use or throw away return portion as per your needs. This happened to me a few years ago at Glasgow Central, I asked for a single to Exhibition Centre and was given a return, as it was all there was/the same price.

If you ask a person for a single and a return costs less, then sure, overwhelmingly they will suggest a return.

However, the Hull Trains app and website aren't people, and if they're asked for a single they will not show you or warn you that a return may be cheaper, so unfortunately in this particular case I don't think your point stands. It would make things so much easier if there were some logic in place to detect all cases where a flexible return type may be cheaper than a flexible single type for the appropriate journey, and add a single of the comparable type at either the same or 10p less. Some TOCs are very good at ensuring this when they make changes, and some aren't.

For example, at least four years ago both me and someone internal at LNER sent messages politely pointing out that there is an Off Peak Day Return from Wakefield to Doncaster at (in today's prices) £9.40, but no comparable single with the cheapest one costing £11.10. Unfortunately, no Off Peak Day Single was ever created, despite that this would make life easier and simpler for the staff, would be more consistent with other local journeys and other short LNER journeys, and would mean the website and app wouldn't overcharge. LNER have however since added their own Advance tickets between Wakefield and Doncaster, along with just about any journey you could possibly make by LNER, even Haymarket to Edinburgh.

 

[yorksrob]

(Virtually) all are booked 6 cars now. But there is still overcrowding on some services.

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I think you've completely missed the point there. The introduction of GBR ostensibly represents a significant shakeup of the industry, and in theory everything is subject to change.

Many things are of course staying exactly the same, but I was highlighting that the DfT on the one hand claims to be supportive of the continued existence of third party retailers, yet on the other hand permits open access operators (and indeed the 'franchised' TOCs) to undermine them like this.

The ORR ultimately dances to the DfT's tune, so if the DfT told them to make it a licence condition that TOCs must give third party retailers an equal ability to retail fares, they would do so. Of course, no such condition currently exists and thus HT are doing nothing wrong as things stand.

But does that overcrowding occur when the full compliment of capacity in the hour is provided ?

I say that because the route has gone from a 2 Carriage 170 an hour to potentially ten carriages in the hour (6 carriage 185 + 4 carriage Northern). If the full service is being provided, overcrowding oughtn't be critical.

 

[Starmill]

However, we can be sure that there will be occasions where this won't happen, and people will be overcharged.

Given I just went onto the Hull Trains website and it was happy to sell me a single from Doncaster to Hull for 70% more than the return price, without any warning at all that there might be a cheaper option, I would be absolutely astonished if nobody is pays more.

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But does that overcrowding occur when the full compliment of capacity in the hour is provided ?

Probably not, but frankly the full compliment is so unlikely to be provided any time soon it's not worth considering. In any case, even if there were some capacity they wouldn't use it to create new cheaper flexible tickets, they would just increase the number of advance tickets available. Not all of the Northern services are diagrammed four cars.

 

[yorksrob]

Given I just went onto the Hull Trains website and it was happy to sell me a single from Doncaster to Hull for 70% more than the return price, without any warning at all that there might be a cheaper option, I would be absolutely astonished if nobody is pays more.

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Probably not, but frankly the full compliment is so unlikely to be provided any time soon it's not worth considering. In any case, even if there were some capacity they wouldn't use it to create new cheaper flexible tickets, they would just increase the number of advance tickets available. Not all of the Northern services are diagrammed four cars.

Indeed. As I've said before, the day-trip traffic doesn't lend itself to advanced purchases. If it did, why aren't First just increasing them between Doncaster and Hull !

 

[Class800]

If you ask a person for a single and a return costs less, then sure, overwhelmingly they will suggest a return.

Some flows only have returns not singles, e.g. https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=GLC&dest=EXG

 

[Watershed]

Some flows only have returns not singles, e.g. https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=GLC&dest=EXG

There is a single in there, hidden amongst the Kid with Adult, Flexipass and Concessionary fares! However it is more expensive than either the Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak Day Return. This is extremely common for fares within the SPT area.

 

[Starmill]

Some flows only have returns not singles, e.g. https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=GLC&dest=EXG

You've mentioned this several times but unfortunately I'm not aware of any examples of it? As watershed points out it's very common for the situation I described above to exist in Scotland, where there's an Off Peak Day Return that costs significantly less than the cheapest single. Even very common purchases such as Glasgow to Perth is affected.

 

[TUC]

All well and good provided people don't try using them on the services of other operators.

As others have pointed out before, the problem with operator specific fares is that they add to passenger confusion. It is also somewhat unfair on the passengers at intermediate stations where Hull Trains don't call.


Maybe it addresses exactly the issue I note above though, that if passengers are able to buy operator restricted tickets on a general sales channel, they don't see the Hull Trains only restriction and start using the tickets on Northern or LNER services.

It shows the benefits of competition.

Frankly, if passengers buy a ticket marked Hull Trains only and seek to use it on other operations it is their own fault. Why should the rest of us have to pay higher, multi-operators fares just to help those who don't take notice of what they are buying?

 

[Starmill]

Frankly, if passengers buy a ticket marked Hull Trains only and seek to use it on other operations it is their own fault.

A lot of people would think that it means trains going to Hull rather than anything else. A lot of people won't even realise there are different train operators. It is not at all sufficiently clear.

 

[Adam Williams]

I disagree - I think that it is for political convenience rather than industry convenience, so that there can be 'competition' which is supposed to improve the passenger's customer's experience.

I think healthy competition (as well as fundamentally, co-operation) between TOCs and retailers has undoubtedly improved the retail experience for passengers. I can talk for a long time about innovation introduced - customers overwhelmingly benefit from 21st century ticket fulfilment methods on most flows - I don't think eTickets would've happened when they did without Trainline and Assertis pushing this - as well as painless online self-refunds, seat pickers (in spite of the quality of data in RARS), crowdsourced train busy-ness data etc.

In the last year it looks like LNER have partially modernised their refund process - I don't recall them previously offering an automated fee-free same day void option. I'm sure in due course they will further improve so that BWC refunds are not outsourced to an FRT web-form where customers have to waste time re-entering all of their booking & personal details
I think the customer experience at most TOCs would honestly still be a joke if it wasn't for competition in this space.

Retail aside, when it comes to passenger experience surveys, haven't the open access operators topped those for a long time?

I am very wary of assuming that changes will be for the better.

Indeed, ultimately we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Haywain]

I think healthy competition (as well as fundamentally, co-operation) between TOCs and retailers has undoubtedly improved the retail experience for passengers. I can talk for a long time about innovation introduced - customers overwhelmingly benefit from 21st century ticket fulfilment methods on most flows - I don't think eTickets would've happened when they did without Trainline and Assertis pushing this - as well as painless online self-refunds, seat pickers (in spite of the quality of data in RARS), crowdsourced train busy-ness data etc.

I was referring to the 'competition' between train operators rather than retailers. However, I think if privatisation hadn't happened we'd have moved away from CCST to newer forms pof tickets many years ago. The problem of privatisation in that respect has been the need to get so many companies to sign up to a change so that it can be pushed through.

In the last year it looks like LNER have partially modernised their refund process - I don't recall them previously offering an automated fee-free same day void option. I'm sure in due course they will further improve so that BWC refunds are not outsourced to an FRT web-form where customers have to waste time re-entering all of their booking & personal details

We looks to improve things but BWC has been, and remains, temporary meaning that there is little benefit to be seen from development to make it easier given the timescales that can be involved.

 

[HullRailMan]

Such a journey really ought to have an inter-available CDR in my opinion. The day-trip market isn't suited to advanced purchase. First seen to be acknowledging this truth with the new Hull trains fares.

Day returns between Hull and Leeds, as well on other TPE routes, we’re discontinued about three years ago, meaning it’s either advance singles or an open return. Also applies to routes from Hull via Leeds such as Harrogate, and represented quite a steep rise in fares by stealth. No idea if it was a TPE or DfT decision.

 

[westv]

I thought the industry as a whole was supposed to be getting rid of return tickets.

I think they keep coming back.

 

[Andy Pacer]

A lot of people would think that it means trains going to Hull rather than anything else. A lot of people won't even realise there are different train operators. It is not at all sufficiently clear.

That's a good point actually which I'd not considered before.
Similar to people going the opposite way would probably describe themselves as catching the "London Trains".

 

[Wolfie]

I think they keep coming back.

You just know that some TOC will do a Boomerang ticket promotion....

 

[westv]

That's a good point actually which I'd not considered before.
Similar to people going the opposite way would probably describe themselves as catching the "London Trains".

On more than once occasion in the past I've been on the LNER Kings X service to Hull and another passenger has been confused that their Hull Trains ticket isn't valid on a Hull train.

 

[Andy Pacer]

On more than once occasion in the past I've been on the LNER Kings X service to Hull and another passenger has been confused that their Hull Trains ticket isn't valid on a Hull train.

Definitely makes sense!