Swanage to Wareham postponed again

[zwk500]

Would there be no possibility of building a Smallbrook Junction-style interchange station at Worgret Junction itself, with a platform on the Swanage line a short walk from platforms on the main line?

The mainline platforms need only be very basic indeed (no road access, car park or facilities other than a footbridge), the 'Swanage' platform/station could be as elaborate as SR wanted to make it.

I appreciate the land at the Junction isn't flat, the railway is in something of a shallow cutting, but a bulldozer could probably carve out room for platforms without too much difficulty.

That would enable the day-tripper to enjoy the Swanage line, Corfe, and Swanage itself by train all the way, without any of the issues of mixing 'mainline' and 'preserved' services, and no need to involve a bus.

Just a thought anyway!

From a personal point of view, I live in the New Forest and regularly make Saturday trips by train to Poole, Wareham, Weymouth, Lymington and so on. But the thought of getting on a packed bus for the very long and rattling haul from Bournemouth to Swanage (and paying the extra £9.50 for the privilege, with no railcard discount) means I only head to Swanage at most once a year... very disappointed there'll be no direct rail service this year again...

No, the penalty to the mainline trains is huge for negligible benefit (if any). You'd need a disabled-compliant footbridge, 2.5m wide platforms and a new access road to the junction. It'd cost millions, and neither the council nor the heritage railway will want to put even so much as a penny to it.

 

[yorksrob]

Would there be no possibility of building a Smallbrook Junction-style interchange station at Worgret Junction itself, with a platform on the Swanage line a short walk from platforms on the main line?

The mainline platforms need only be very basic indeed (no road access, car park or facilities other than a footbridge), the 'Swanage' platform/station could be as elaborate as SR wanted to make it.

I appreciate the land at the Junction isn't flat, the railway is in something of a shallow cutting, but a bulldozer could probably carve out room for platforms without too much difficulty.

That would enable the day-tripper to enjoy the Swanage line, Corfe, and Swanage itself by train all the way, without any of the issues of mixing 'mainline' and 'preserved' services, and no need to involve a bus.

Just a thought anyway!

From a personal point of view, I live in the New Forest and regularly make Saturday trips by train to Poole, Wareham, Weymouth, Lymington and so on. But the thought of getting on a packed bus for the very long and rattling haul from Bournemouth to Swanage (and paying the extra £9.50 for the privilege, with no railcard discount) means I only head to Swanage at most once a year... very disappointed there'll be no direct rail service this year again...

In truth, this sort of thing ought to be possible (as it was with Smallbrook junction on the island line). Alas in the 21st century red-tape ridden railway, it seems unlikely.

 

[fgwrich]

No, the penalty to the mainline trains is huge for negligible benefit (if any). You'd need a disabled-compliant footbridge, 2.5m wide platforms and a new access road to the junction. It'd cost millions, and neither the council nor the heritage railway will want to put even so much as a penny to it.

Not only that, but the line curves pretty sharply away from the mainline to the South East, through a cutting and out onto an embankment, and is on a rolling gradient down to the bridge over the River Froome. A total non starter unfortunately.

The area around Worgret can be seen here:

 

[zwk500]

In truth, this sort of thing ought to be possible (as it was with Smallbrook junction on the island line). Alas in the 21st century red-tape ridden railway, it seems unlikely.

The only trains you could stop there are London-Weymouth trains. At a random halt in the middle of the field for a journey that already gets criticised for taking to long just so a handful of enthusiasts can ride a steam train.

 

[yorksrob]

The only trains you could stop there are London-Weymouth trains. At a random halt in the middle of the field for a journey that already gets criticised for taking to long just so a handful of enthusiasts can ride a steam train.

Firstly, the idea is that it links Swanage to the rest of the network.

Secondly, if this is a non-starter, get the link through to Wareham done instead.

 

[zwk500]

Firstly, the idea is that it links Swanage to the rest of the network.

As explained before, the heritage railway is unlikely to be able to offer a sustainable public transport service. Certainly not one that would justify adding 3-4 minutes into London-Weymouth trains (unless you dropped Wareham from them instead....)

Secondly, if this is a non-starter, get the link through to Wareham done instead.

Yes. This is the better option. Run the trial again and take stock.

 

[yorksrob]

As explained before, the heritage railway is unlikely to be able to offer a sustainable public transport service. Certainly not one that would justify adding 3-4 minutes into London-Weymouth trains (unless you dropped Wareham from them instead....)

Yes. This is the better option. Run the trial again and take stock.

And if the Swanage Railway can't support it entirely on its own, consider whether there needs to be some public input.

 

[westerndave]

Well, Bournemouth/Poole must count as a metropolitan conurbation. Perhaps it needs a PTE !

Not remotely likely to happen. BCP (Bournemouth, Christchurch, Poole) councils formed into a unitary authority in the last few years and Re having a nightmare trying to make that work without even trying to get an integrated transport policy together. Add to that Swanage and Wareham are outside of BCP’s area so other parties would need to buy in etc…

As a side issue nearby Southampton and Portsmouth wanted to make a Solent integrated transport authority a few years ago and that died a death after many fractious arguments.

 

[yorksrob]

Not remotely likely to happen. BCP (Bournemouth, Christchurch, Poole) councils formed into a unitary authority in the last few years and Re having a nightmare trying to make that work without even trying to get an integrated transport policy together. Add to that Swanage and Wareham are outside of BCP’s area so other parties would need to buy in etc…

As a side issue nearby Southampton and Portsmouth wanted to make a Solent integrated transport authority a few years ago and that died a death after many fractious arguments.

It's an interesting point. If they're going through all the tribulations of becoming a unity authority, transport policy is probably the low hanging fruit !

 

[zwk500]

It's an interesting point. If they're going through all the tribulations of becoming a unity authority, transport policy is probably the low hanging fruit !

The key political 'win' in public transport to the BCP area is journey time to London.

 

[yorksrob]

The key political 'win' in public transport to the BCP area is journey time to London.

That probably underestimates the varied needs of the local electorate.

 

[zwk500]

That probably underestimates the varied needs of the local electorate.

The railway does not serve BCP well, most of the urban area is quite far from the line. Not saying local connectivity didn't feature at all, but their priority was definitely speeding up London services. Dorset County Council are quite focused on a regular hourly service on the Heart of Wessex line though, which would be good even though it needs some tinkering with the loops at Pen Mill and Maiden Newton.

 

[yorksrob]

The railway does not serve BCP well, most of the urban area is quite far from the line. Not saying local connectivity didn't feature at all, but their priority was definitely speeding up London services. Dorset County Council are quite focused on a regular hourly service on the Heart of Wessex line though, which would be good even though it needs some tinkering with the loops at Pen Mill and Maiden Newton.

Well, that is undoubtedly partly of the fault of the closure programme. It's not surprising that the heart of Wessex line doesn't feature prominently, given its distance. That said, the settlement must surely count as a conurbation and justify some transport policy.

 

[zwk500]

Well, that is undoubtedly partly of the fault of the closure programme. It's not surprising that the heart of Wessex line doesn't feature prominently, given its distance. That said, the settlement must surely count as a conurbation and justify some transport policy.

Sorry, I'm cross-threading a little! Heart of Wessex isn't BCP at all really. BCP are generating a transport policy, I've linked to the NR Dorset connectivity strategy before which is in connection with some of that work.

 

[westerndave]

The railway does not serve BCP well, most of the urban area is quite far from the line. Not saying local connectivity didn't feature at all, but their priority was definitely speeding up London services. Dorset County Council are quite focused on a regular hourly service on the Heart of Wessex line though, which would be good even though it needs some tinkering with the loops at Pen Mill and Maiden Newton.

Dorset county council are now only really interested in the Wessex line as anything they do for the Weymouth-London line would Give BCP benefits without cost to them (BCP) which would n9t be well received at county hall

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2022 ==

The key political 'win' in public transport to the BCP area is journey time to London.

Agreed but Currently low on BCP’s agenda and not much can be done to speed up the journey times without omitting more stations and or costly line speed improvements.

 

[Titfield]

The Morebus operated Purbeck Breezer bus services between Swanage and Poole (via Wareham) and Swanage and Bournemouth provide a good level of service. Hourly between Swanage and Poole and Hourly (increasing to half hourly peak season) between Swanage and Bournemouth.

Given the fare levels, frequency, journey time and multiple pick up / drop off points this is far superior to the prospect of Swanage Railway operating 4 services per day for a limited number of days during the summer holiday season.

If there are public funds available to invest in public transport then enhancing the bus service would imho give a better return.

Swanage Railway have directly and indirectly received considerable (predominantly public) funds for Project Wareham (C£5M) and to date only one of the two agreed (with DCC in 2014) trial services has been operated. (60 days in 2017). Given the announcements by SR relating to concerns about the cost of operating the service the question must arise as to whether the use of further public funds can be justified.

 

[Djgr]

The Morebus operated Purbeck Breezer bus services between Swanage and Poole (via Wareham) and Swanage and Bournemouth provide a good level of service. Hourly between Swanage and Poole and Hourly (increasing to half hourly peak season) between Swanage and Bournemouth.

Given the fare levels, frequency, journey time and multiple pick up / drop off points this is far superior to the prospect of Swanage Railway operating 4 services per day for a limited number of days during the summer holiday season.

If there are public funds available to invest in public transport then enhancing the bus service would imho give a better return.

Swanage Railway have directly and indirectly received considerable (predominantly public) funds for Project Wareham (C£5M) and to date only one of the two agreed (with DCC in 2014) trial services has been operated. (60 days in 2017). Given the announcements by SR relating to concerns about the cost of operating the service the question must arise as to whether the use of further public funds can be justified.

Now if we calculate public funds spent to date divided by passengers travelled to date, this would be an interesting and fairly shocking figure!

 

[yorksrob]

The Morebus operated Purbeck Breezer bus services between Swanage and Poole (via Wareham) and Swanage and Bournemouth provide a good level of service. Hourly between Swanage and Poole and Hourly (increasing to half hourly peak season) between Swanage and Bournemouth.

Given the fare levels, frequency, journey time and multiple pick up / drop off points this is far superior to the prospect of Swanage Railway operating 4 services per day for a limited number of days during the summer holiday season.

If there are public funds available to invest in public transport then enhancing the bus service would imho give a better return.

Swanage Railway have directly and indirectly received considerable (predominantly public) funds for Project Wareham (C£5M) and to date only one of the two agreed (with DCC in 2014) trial services has been operated. (60 days in 2017). Given the announcements by SR relating to concerns about the cost of operating the service the question must arise as to whether the use of further public funds can be justified.

According to the company timetable it takes an hour.

I think I'd prefer the train.

 

[Mike Machin]

Bus services generally give a much better return on investment for local travel, and in many cases modern buses offer a much more environmentally-friendly solution travel by diesel train. In fact buses (and especially coaches on longer journey) can prove to provide better green credentials than an electric train, unless that train is full.

With 83% of passenger miles travelled in the UK being provided by private cars, any government or local authority spending on public transport for the relatively few people who use it has to be very carefully considered to ensure that it offers the very best value to the taxpayer.

All heritage railways should be looking at cost-cutting and efficiency, and conserving what they already have, rather than any form of expansion for the next few years, and even then I feel some will become insolvent with fewer visitors and rapidly escalating overheads.

Subsidising relatively a frequent fuel-efficient bus service, rather than ancient diesel powered trains has to be the way forward from a transport point of view, and we can continue to enjoy the recreational pleasures provided by the steam railway.

 

[yorksrob]

In the case of Swanage, we have the sunk cost of the rolling stock and track improvements. I don't think it's unreasonable to use those assets to provide a quality connection to the main railway network.

 

[A0]

Would there be no possibility of building a Smallbrook Junction-style interchange station at Worgret Junction itself, with a platform on the Swanage line a short walk from platforms on the main line?

The mainline platforms need only be very basic indeed (no road access, car park or facilities other than a footbridge), the 'Swanage' platform/station could be as elaborate as SR wanted to make it.

I appreciate the land at the Junction isn't flat, the railway is in something of a shallow cutting, but a bulldozer could probably carve out room for platforms without too much difficulty.

That would enable the day-tripper to enjoy the Swanage line, Corfe, and Swanage itself by train all the way, without any of the issues of mixing 'mainline' and 'preserved' services, and no need to involve a bus.

Just a thought anyway!

From a personal point of view, I live in the New Forest and regularly make Saturday trips by train to Poole, Wareham, Weymouth, Lymington and so on. But the thought of getting on a packed bus for the very long and rattling haul from Bournemouth to Swanage (and paying the extra £9.50 for the privilege, with no railcard discount) means I only head to Swanage at most once a year... very disappointed there'll be no direct rail service this year again...

A new station on the mainline would need to be fully DDA compliant etc - that wouldn't be cheap - Reston has just cost £20m. I'm not sure £20m for a station for occasional connectivity to the Swange railway is a particularly good use of resource.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2022 ==

In the case of Swanage, we have the sunk cost of the rolling stock and track improvements. I don't think it's unreasonable to use those assets to provide a quality connection to the main railway network.

Unless it's going to cost even more and never cover its costs, which is the bare minimum it needs to do for the Swanage Railway. The refurbed DMUs will be used by the railway as will some of the track improvements. But there's no point in losing even more money, particularly after the last 2 years.

 

[yorksrob]

A new station on the mainline would need to be fully DDA compliant etc - that wouldn't be cheap - Reston has just cost £20m. I'm not sure £20m for a station for occasional connectivity to the Swange railway is a particularly good use of resource.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2022 ==



Unless it's going to cost even more and never cover its costs, which is the bare minimum it needs to do for the Swanage Railway. The refurbed DMUs will be used by the railway as will some of the track improvements. But there's no point in losing even more money, particularly after the last 2 years.

We regularly subsidise passenger transport for the greater good. Perhaps the operating cost shouldn't be left entirely up to the Swanage railway.

 

[A0]

According to the company timetable it takes an hour.

I think I'd prefer the train.

Are you prepared to pay the full market fare which SR need to charge? Most people won't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2022 ==

We regularly subsidise passenger transport for the greater good. Perhaps the operating cost shouldn't be left entirely up to the Swanage railway.

The SR is a private heritage railway. None of the private heritage railways are subsidised - they are charities which have to cover their costs and are part staffed by volunteers as a result.

Changing this would be damaging for many reasons, not least the fact every other line up and down the country would expect the same treatment.

 

[yorksrob]

Are you prepared to pay the full market fare which SR need to charge? Most people won't.

As a taxpayer, I believe it's the sort of passenger link that the state should be subsidising.

As an individual, yes of course i'd pay the commercial fare, but we should be thinking about the public utility - which would be great if the line could be subsidised to the extent that normal national rail fares could be charged.

 

[A0]

As a taxpayer, I believe it's the sort of passenger link that the state should be subsidising.

As an individual, yes of course i'd pay the commercial fare, but we should be thinking about the public utility - which would be great if the line could be subsidised to the extent that normal national rail fares could be charged.

There is limited public utility. There are not that many visitors onto the Isle of Purbeck and certainly not enough to warrant subsidising the heritage railway when a modern bus service could be provided from Wareham at a fraction of the cost and offer a much more usable service. But you don't like buses so you won't agree - but whether or not you like it, that is the right answer.

 

[yorksrob]

There is limited public utility. There are not that many visitors onto the Isle of Purbeck and certainly not enough to warrant subsidising the heritage railway when a modern bus service could be provided from Wareham at a fraction of the cost and offer a much more usable service. But you don't like buses so you won't agree - but whether or not you like it, that is the right answer.

It's clearly not otherwise people would choose to give up their railway for a more frequent bus service. They don't.

 

[A0]

It's clearly not otherwise people would choose to give up their railway for a more frequent bus service. They don't.

I can think of many journeys where more people use the bus than a parallel train - Wellingborough to Kettering, Welwyn Garden City to Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City to Stevenage, Stevenage to Hitchin, Hitchin to Letchworth, Luton to Harpenden, Harpenden to St Albans.

It's nowhere near as clear cut as you'd like to make out.

 

[yorksrob]

I can think of many journeys where more people use the bus than a parallel train - Wellingborough to Kettering, Welwyn Garden City to Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City to Stevenage, Stevenage to Hitchin.
It's nowhere near as clear cut as you'd like to make out.

And yet the railway is always retained - largely because it does the longer distance bit with the buses shorter journeys.

"Horses for courses" in action, but that is only an acceptable analogy for closing lines apparently.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

My only recent visit to the railway was last year. I travelled from South Wales to Wareham by train, took the bus from Wareham to Swanage, the train from there to Corfe Castle and back, and then repeated the outward journey to get home.

It was a long day, but I accepted that this would be the case, mostly because of the length of the journey from and back to South Wales. I had to wait for buses and trains at different times when in Purbeck, but it wasn't a problem as I was well aware of the times before I made the visit.

I'd have liked to take a direct train from Wareham to Swanage, but I understood that there have been a lot of problems with the arrangements (as detailed above and elsewhere), so it wasn't an option. Should it become an option in the future, I'll try to take the journey - but it's not a reason for not going to the railway again at some time. Such matters are outwith my control, so I'll accept what's offered.

 

[Cymroglan]

My only recent visit to the railway was last year. I travelled from South Wales to Wareham by train, took the bus from Wareham to Swanage, the train from there to Corfe Castle and back, and then repeated the outward journey to get home.

It was a long day, but I accepted that this would be the case, mostly because of the length of the journey from and back to South Wales. I had to wait for buses and trains at different times when in Purbeck, but it wasn't a problem as I was well aware of the times before I made the visit.

I'd have liked to take a direct train from Wareham to Swanage, but I understood that there have been a lot of problems with the arrangements (as detailed above and elsewhere), so it wasn't an option. Should it become an option in the future, I'll try to take the journey - but it's not a reason for not going to the railway again at some time. Such matters are outwith my control, so I'll accept what's offered.

Wow, that’s quite a journey! I only travel from the New Forest to Swanage! Like you, I have no problem with the Wareham - Swanage bus connection. The bus stop is very close to Wareham station and it’s rather a nice scenic journey especially between Corfe and Swanage. If I’m travelling with company, it can be nice to spend a bit of time in Wareham which has a fantastic Saxon church building (St Martin’s) and several good refreshment points!
i strongly suspect that this bus link is more viable than a regular train service.