New cheap fares to Hull

[Haywain]

Hull Trains are introducing new cheap period return fares to (and, by the look of things, from) Hull for 'local' journeys:

Hull Trains encourages local travellers to leave car at home

Hull Trains has launched a new, discounted promotion for local passengers in a bid to encourage people to use a more environmentally friendly way to travel to the city.

Prices to travel on Hull Trains services between Hull and Doncaster, and other East Yorkshire stations to Hull, including Brough, Howden and Selby, are to be reduced by over 50 per cent of the current price.

The prices will be exclusive to the Hull Trains website and app and passengers can return anytime within 30 days.

In addition to the cost savings, passengers will also be doing their bit to further reduce their carbon footprint as Hull Trains bi-mode electric trains produce less carbon emissions than travelling by car. Travelling by train makes up 10% of UK journeys but only 1 per cent of UK travel emissions.

The ticket is designed to appeal to day trippers and holiday makers as the Easter and summer holidays fast approach. Hull Trains is also working collaboratively on promotion with local businesses such as The Deep and the DoubleTree by Hilton in Hull to spread the word about the benefits of leaving the car at home and travelling for leisure purposes via train.

David Gibson, Managing Director, said: “We are encouraging local travellers to leave the car at home, protect the environment and save some money! The rising cost of living has been well documented at this moment in time so we hope that this latest pricing offer will be welcomed by local people.

“The holiday season is approaching so this offers people an inexpensive option for travelling to Hull to enjoy all of the amenities the city has to offer. You may even wish to stay a while longer than a day as return travel can be taken anytime within 30 days!”

For more information visit the dedicated page at the Hull Trains website https://www.hulltrains.co.uk/tickets-and-offers/hull-leisure-return

 

[Watershed]

Hull Trains are introducing new cheap period return fares to (and, by the look of things, from) Hull for 'local' journeys:

The offer makes a lot of sense - no doubt a considerable portion of their traffic is between Doncaster and London so there is spare capacity between Doncaster and Hull. £10 for a period return from Doncaster to Hull is exceptional value (bearing in mind interavailable fares are £29.90 SHR, £25.50 SDR and £21.50 CDR) - even if you are restricted to the 6 Hull Trains services a day.

However, this is yet another offer which is restricted to certain sales channels. This is a highly anticompetitive practice which creates an uneven playing field for third party retailers. If the DfT is serious about keeping third party retailers available when GBR launches, they need to outlaw such restrictions other than in the most exceptional of circumstances.

 

[Starmill]

Interesting that it's called the Hull Leisure Return, and that it isn't available in single form. It seems very silly not to just create Leisure Singles at the same price as a return, as it would have no effect on revenue but reduce opportunity for customers to complain of overcharging.

I also noticed that they recently added Hull - Cottingham and Hull - Beverley Hull Trains only tickets for the first time. These are better than the Leisure Returns in that they're available generally and with a railcard discount.

Despite these initiatives, Hull Trains only flexible tickets continue not to be available between Doncaster and Cottingham or Beverley. There are also no interavailable First Class tickets for these journeys.

It's a shame that they didn't create a Retford to Hull Leisure Return at £20 too, because customers can buy the Hull Trains Only Anytime Day Return from Retford to Doncaster at £10 and then pay £10 again for the Doncaster to Hull Leisure Return.

 

[JonathanH]

All well and good provided people don't try using them on the services of other operators.

As others have pointed out before, the problem with operator specific fares is that they add to passenger confusion. It is also somewhat unfair on the passengers at intermediate stations where Hull Trains don't call.

However, this is yet another offer which is restricted to certain sales channels. This is a highly anticompetitive practice which creates an uneven playing field for third party retailers. If the DfT is serious about keeping third party retailers available when GBR launches, they need to outlaw such restrictions other than in the most exceptional of circumstances.

Maybe it addresses exactly the issue I note above though, that if passengers are able to buy operator restricted tickets on a general sales channel, they don't see the Hull Trains only restriction and start using the tickets on Northern or LNER services.

 

[Adam Williams]

Maybe it addresses exactly the issue I note above though, that if passengers are able to buy operator restricted tickets on a general sales channel, they don't see the Hull Trains only restriction and start using the tickets on Northern or LNER services.

The consequences that follow passengers failing to read the conditions applicable to the fares they are buying (particularly when retailers go to great lengths to make it crystal clear) is a poor excuse to avoid a level playing field.

Especially since Hull Trains' site itself will happily sell me a WCML restricted ("Valid on West Midlands Railway and London Northwestern Railway services only.") ticket.

 

[AY1975]

Despite these initiatives, Hull Trains only flexible tickets continue not to be available between Doncaster and Cottingham or Beverley. There are also no interavailable First Class tickets for these journeys.

Yes, and the Hull Leisure Return would appear to be a Standard Class only product. Maybe they should also have created a Doncaster-Hull Hull Leisure Return First at, say, £15, £17.50 or £20.

It also seems a bit odd that the Hull Leisure Return is only available for journeys starting or finishing at Hull (i.e. from Doncaster or intermediate stations served by Hull Trains: Brough, Howden and Selby), not for journeys between Doncaster and any of those intermediate stations. I suppose it is aimed at visitors to Hull, though.

The quote in #1 above would appear to suggest that Hull Leisure Return tickets are only available via the HT website or app, but the HT website says they are also available from ticket offices at the stations where they are valid.

 

[ainsworth74]

The consequences that follow passengers failing to read the conditions applicable to the fares they are buying (particularly when retailers go to great lengths to make it crystal clear) is a poor excuse to avoid a level playing field.

It is also, of course, a problem of the industries making. The reason it gets so thorny is that staff have to tell the passengers "Yes I know you've got at ticket but it isn't valid you'll have to buy a new one and yes you can try and refund the ticket you got but you'll have a £10 admin fee deducted as well" rather than "I'm sorry that this isn't valid on Purple Trains, it does say here it's only valid on Indigo Trains so I'll need to charge you an excess of £x to make it valid on this train". Cue grumbling but not outrage. Especially when the excess is often literal pennies (admittedly not in the case though!).

 

[Adam Williams]

It is also, of course, a problem of the industries making. The reason it gets so thorny is that staff have to tell the passengers "Yes I know you've got at ticket but it isn't valid you'll have to buy a new one and yes you can try and refund the ticket you got but you'll have a £10 admin fee deducted as well" rather than "I'm sorry that this isn't valid on Purple Trains, it does say here it's only valid on Indigo Trains so I'll need to charge you an excess of £x to make it valid on this train". Cue grumbling but not outrage. Especially when the excess is often literal pennies (admittedly not in the case though!).

Oh, I 100% agree, the rules are not only inconsistent but they're generally the way they are for historical reasons largely due to industry convenience and fundamentally just aren't designed around the passenger's experience at all. Why can we excess route-restricted tickets, but not TOC-only tickets? Well, "revenue distribution". Why should I care about that as a passenger? In a world where DfT/govt is bearing all the revenue risk, the TOCs are on management contracts and everything is about to fundamentally change with GBR.. it's all nonsense.

Not really the retailer's fault though, and there's going to be a limit to the amount of change that can realistically be effected in this area in the medium term, I suspect. So, given that it's a poor customer experience, surely we should try to avoid making it even poorer by stopping the customer from exercising choice to use their preferred retailer to make their bookings?

 

[alistairlees]

The ticket is aimed at promoting inward leisure travel to Hull - boosting the local economy. There is discussion about independent retailers (and even other TOCs!) being 'allowed' to retail this.

 

[yorksrob]

This is great news, however it does go to emphasise how out of kilter and overpriced similar distance fares are in the area.

As an example, the off-peak return from Leeds to Hull is whopping £27.40 (there inexplicably doesn't appear to be a day return). You can save money by getting a Northern only anytime short return at £22.50, however it's not so good for a day out as Northerns services finish early on the route.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not really the retailer's fault though, and there's going to be a limit to the amount of change that can realistically be effected in this area in the medium term, I suspect. So, given that it's a poor customer experience, surely we should try to avoid making it even poorer by stopping the customer from exercising choice to use their preferred retailer to make their bookings?

Yes absolutely!

 

[JonathanH]

As an example, the off-peak return from Leeds to Hull is whopping £27.40

Looking at a few other flows around the country, that is pretty much the going rate for a journey of slightly more than 50 miles these days. The compounding effect of inflation causes prices to increase faster than they expect them to.

 

[yorksrob]

Looking at a few other flows around the country, that is pretty much the going rate for a journey of slightly more than 50 miles these days. The compounding effect of inflation causes prices to increase faster than they expect them to.

Maybe, but I know that Hull trains and TPE are owned by the same parent company and the day-trip market to Hull could probably be further developed with a reasonably priced CDR from West Yorkshire (particularly given the service frequency is now 2 trains per hour on the line).

 

[Haywain]

they're generally the way they are for historical reasons largely due to industry convenience and fundamentally just aren't designed around the passenger's experience at all.

I disagree - I think that it is for political convenience rather than industry convenience, so that there can be 'competition' which is supposed to improve the passenger's customer's experience.

everything is about to fundamentally change with GBR

I am very wary of assuming that changes will be for the better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2022 ==

This is great news, however it does go to emphasise how out of kilter and overpriced similar distance fares are in the area.

It's also an indication of how much Hull Trains earns from the inter-available fares - they wouldn't be setting these to undercut their own share of more expensive fares.

 

[yorksrob]

It's also an indication of how much Hull Trains earns from the inter-available fares - they wouldn't be setting these to undercut their own share of more expensive fares.

Yes, that's an interesting point that I hadn't thought about.

That said, TPE must be getting the lions share of inter-available fares between W Yorks and Hull as well

 

[Haywain]

That said, TPE must be getting the lions share of inter-available fares between W Yorks and Hull as well

Probably, and they are also the fare setter so are limited to offering Advance fares with a TOC restriction.

 

[yorksrob]

Probably, and they are also the fare setter so are limited to offering Advance fares with a TOC restriction.

Could they not offer a cheap day return ?

 

[Starmill]

Could they not offer a cheap day return ?

Yes, as either a temporary promotion or an inter-available ticket. They're very unlikely to do so however because they want people to buy one of their own Advance tickets instead.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, as either a temporary promotion or an inter-available ticket.

Such a journey really ought to have an inter-available CDR in my opinion. The day-trip market isn't suited to advanced purchase. First seen to be acknowledging this truth with the new Hull trains fares.

 

[Starmill]

Such a journey really ought to have an inter-available CDR in my opinion. The day-trip market isn't suited to advanced purchase. First seen to be acknowledging this truth with the new Hull trains fares.

It's very poor, I completely agree. Of course, passengers can buy a Leeds to Selby ticket then change trains at Selby and use the £8 return ticket on Hull Trains from Selby to Hull. But apart from enthusiasts nobody is going to really bother with that. TPE do sell a day return for TPE only from Selby to Hull, but it costs around double the Hull Trains option.

 

[Watershed]

Such a journey really ought to have an inter-available CDR in my opinion. The day-trip market isn't suited to advanced purchase. First seen to be acknowledging this truth with the new Hull trains fares.

I entirely agree, but clearly there are some services which are very busy, and so they prefer to provide cheaper fares by means of Advance tickets, whose availability can be controlled on a train and day specific basis to reduce overcrowding.

 

[skyhigh]

This is great news, however it does go to emphasise how out of kilter and overpriced similar distance fares are in the area.

As an example, the off-peak return from Leeds to Hull is whopping £27.40 (there inexplicably doesn't appear to be a day return). You can save money by getting a Northern only anytime short return at £22.50, however it's not so good for a day out as Northerns services finish early on the route.

The last Northern service from Leeds-Hull departs Leeds at 2300, which seems fairly reasonable rather than an early finish?

 

[Haywain]

The last Northern service from Leeds-Hull departs Leeds at 2300, which seems fairly reasonable rather than an early finish?

And in the opposite direction, 22:31 isn't that early.

 

[johncrossley]

I thought the industry as a whole was supposed to be getting rid of return tickets.

 

[yorksrob]

It's very poor, I completely agree. Of course, passengers can buy a Leeds to Selby ticket then change trains at Selby and use the £8 return ticket on Hull Trains from Selby to Hull. But apart from enthusiasts nobody is going to really bother with that. TPE do sell a day return for TPE only from Selby to Hull, but it costs around double the Hull Trains option.

I entirely agree, but clearly there are some services which are very busy, and so they prefer to provide cheaper fares by means of Advance tickets, whose availability can be controlled on a train and day specific basis to reduce overcrowding.

TPE does run a few 6 carriage 185's on the route. I do wonder whether this, along with the northern service could alleviate this situation enough to have a decent fare option in future ?

The last Northern service from Leeds-Hull departs Leeds at 2300, which seems fairly reasonable rather than an early finish?

There does seem to be a large gap in them going the other way before the 22:15 departure from Hull which catches me out !

 

[Bertie the bus]

However, this is yet another offer which is restricted to certain sales channels. This is a highly anticompetitive practice which creates an uneven playing field for third party retailers. If the DfT is serious about keeping third party retailers available when GBR launches, they need to outlaw such restrictions other than in the most exceptional of circumstances.

GBR has nothing to do with Hull Trains and the DfT has no right to dictate what an open access operator does. Providing they comply with their operating license granted by the ORR they can do as they please.

 

[Watershed]

TPE does run a few 6 carriage 185's on the route

(Virtually) all are booked 6 cars now. But there is still overcrowding on some services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2022 ==

GBR has nothing to do with Hull Trains and the DfT has no right to dictate what an open access operator does. Providing they comply with their operating license granted by the ORR they can do as they please.

I think you've completely missed the point there. The introduction of GBR ostensibly represents a significant shakeup of the industry, and in theory everything is subject to change.

Many things are of course staying exactly the same, but I was highlighting that the DfT on the one hand claims to be supportive of the continued existence of third party retailers, yet on the other hand permits open access operators (and indeed the 'franchised' TOCs) to undermine them like this.

The ORR ultimately dances to the DfT's tune, so if the DfT told them to make it a licence condition that TOCs must give third party retailers an equal ability to retail fares, they would do so. Of course, no such condition currently exists and thus HT are doing nothing wrong as things stand.

 

[Class800]

Interesting that it's called the Hull Leisure Return, and that it isn't available in single form. It seems very silly not to just create Leisure Singles at the same price as a return, as it would have no effect on revenue but reduce opportunity for customers to complain of overcharging.

If same price, might as well just sell returns, and either use or throw away return portion as per your needs. This happened to me a few years ago at Glasgow Central, I asked for a single to Exhibition Centre and was given a return, as it was all there was/the same price.

 

[Watershed]

If same price, might as well just sell returns, and either use or throw away return portion as per your needs. This happened to me a few years ago at Glasgow Central, I asked for a single to Exhibition Centre and was given a return, as it was all there was/the same price.

However, we can be sure that there will be occasions where this won't happen, and people will be overcharged. It also means that HT's liability for delay compensation will be reduced, as it is calculated using the value of the relevant portion.

 

[Haywain]

In a world where DfT/govt is bearing all the revenue risk, the TOCs are on management contracts

This seems to be mentioned a lot lately but I suspect (I don't know) that revenue is one of the factors in how each contract is measured, so the revenue risk will not be a driver to removal of TOC dedicated fares.