HS2 Euston Rebuild Service Diversions

[Nym]

Now, not knowing much on railways lines in London, where and what could you divert away from Euston, including one I've heard thrown about diverting WCML slows onto Crossrail...

Could we use the dual voltage 350s to run through Kensington Olympia, North London Line, Kings X? Whats the possiblilities, if somonwhere doesn't have capacity to take it, could you do a big shuffle round, Euston Rebuilding is going to be a couple of years so big timetable changes are possible.

 

[Ibex]

Could we use the dual voltage 350s to run through Kensington Olympia, North London Line, Kings X?

London Midland shot themselves in the foot here, the 350/1's aren't dual voltage anymore, their pick up shoes were removed not long after they came back from use with Southern on the MK - East Croydon services.

All there is really for 350's is turning services at Watford I suppose. I understand it previously would have been Harrow & Wealdstone but since there are no points there anymore to turnback, that won't happen either.

 

[Daimler]

Would it be prohibitively expensive to reinstate the platforms at Queen's Park for the duration of the work?

 

[Nym]

Watford DC Line could be handed over to LUL couldn't it?

Would it be too hard to put the 3rd rail kit back on the 350/1 stock? I'm sure the DC Equipment will still be servicable, and it's looking like a 6 year rebuild to throwing up some more OHL electrification to example, Kensington Olympia or the GWML (For Crossrail), or across the NLL to access KX?

 

[Pumbaa]

London Midland shot themselves in the foot here, the 350/1's aren't dual voltage anymore, their pick up shoes were removed not long after they came back from use with Southern on the MK - East Croydon services.

It's not an issue - its simply been taken off so it doesn't have to be maintained and put in a cupboard in Northampton. Refitting it is simple and quick - its not a major rebuild job.

 

[Ibex]

Ah well that's not too bad then. Of course you'd then have to ensure the diagrams would not result in any 350/2's being sent to Olympia. Also would two platforms (or just one to turn around in?) be able to handle the volume of LM traffic?

There's 6 LM departures an hour from Euston off-peak. Would that then require 12 paths per hour down from Sudbury Junction to Olympia? Then you have to think about Southern, London Overground and freight paths too. It doesn't seem feasible to me though I could imagine them running the Tring terminators in and out of Olympia.

The (obvious) issue to me with using Queens Park is the slow line platforms being unable to hold a 12 car train. Of course the 350's have selective door opening but that's not ideal.

Does Euston have the space to include a platform 0?

Watford DC Line could be handed over to LUL couldn't it?

Well in theory yes, but what would be achieved by that?

 

[tbtc]

Well in theory yes, but what would be achieved by that?

It'd free up three arrivals and three departures at Euston each hour

 

[Mojo]

It'd free up three arrivals and three departures at Euston each hour

But presumably Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead would both still need trains, unless you are saying they should either be closed on the grounds they are near other LO/LU stations, or setting up a Queens Park - South Hampstead shuttle?

 

[Nym]

Could consider sending all the Tring services all the way to Clapham Jcn? Paddington? Waterloo? Victoria?

 

[Ivo]

But presumably Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead would both still need trains, unless you are saying they should either be closed on the grounds they are near other LO/LU stations, or setting up a Queens Park - South Hampstead shuttle?

You could always run a Ghost Bus between them, and deliberately not continue to Euston

 

[Nym]

An hourly shuttle with direction to use the LUL stations for proper service? or just shove a saturday parlimentary service on it...

Or send some stuff up via Camden market on the NLL? Just checked maps and you could just throw em straight onto the NLL from the DC Lines from the looks of it, Terminate it at Stratford... Or if there isn't space send it up to Finsbury Park?

NLL round to Liverpool Street? Rebuild some more platforms at Weilsden for pepole to change to LUL...

 

[142094]

You could always run a Ghost Bus between them, and deliberately not continue to Euston

Probably best to advertise these ones though!

 

[tbtc]

But presumably Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead would both still need trains, unless you are saying they should either be closed on the grounds they are near other LO/LU stations, or setting up a Queens Park - South Hampstead shuttle?

True. Stopping the Tring services at these stations wouldn't be popular either. I guess its all about priorities - at the moment the VHF services seem more important than local/ middle distance services.

A shame that a Watford - Clapham Junction service couldn't stop at Willsden (due to station layout) - that could be a good use of resources

 

[NXEA!]

But presumably Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead would both still need trains, unless you are saying they should either be closed on the grounds they are near other LO/LU stations, or setting up a Queens Park - South Hampstead shuttle?

Personally I'd favour installing a crossover at the Country end of South Hampstead and running a ten/twenty minute interval Bakerloo line service from there to Stonebridge Park/Harrow & Wealdstone/Watford Junction should the service out of Euston be taken over by LUL.

 

[philjo]

There will probably be some overlap, but HS2 construction is not due to start before 2015 & Crossrail completion due in 2018/2019. Therefore once Crossrail is running, there presumably would be some space available in Paddington which could take some diverted services if appropriate OHLE etc is installed.
Running some services from WCML into Crossrail is a possibility anyway.

 

[cle]

Work to get the WCML slows to Crossrail would take a while too, and isn't factored into the Crossrail build.

Queens Park is not a bad idea, it would need to be 12 car extended, or all trains be 8 car, and probably just LM services. Maybe also 221 Chester/North Wales trains too?

Platforms at Willesden Junction, both on the WCML Slows and the two tracks from the WLL which the Southern train uses today, would help too.

But really, I think Euston could probaly remain open in some shape or form. It's a very wide throat, and if tunnelling towards Old Oak Common begins at the western side, which would be natural, then the eastern end might be able to remain open.

It could be intercity/Pendos only - with all trains stopping at Watford, which could also turn a lot of LM services. Platforms 1-8 would probably be enough, and with decreased frequencies on Birmingham and Manchester services off peak, it'd probably be enough.

As a side note to the post who asked about Platform 0 - the platform space around 1-3 is vastly wide, due to previous Motorail services and access.

You could quite easily get another one or two platforms in. And with most LM services going off to Crossrail and the DC going to ELL/NLL/WLL(?), the existing platforms and freed paths would be enough for HS2 easily.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's not an issue - its simply been taken off so it doesn't have to be maintained and put in a cupboard in Northampton. Refitting it is simple and quick - its not a major rebuild job.

...and it will just be the shoes, like before. The Desiro shoe arms are liftable, so with the shoe itself removed they are practically out of sight.

Maybe '350/1s are no longer DC capable' should go in the railway myths list...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could consider sending all the Tring services all the way to Clapham Jcn? Paddington? Waterloo? Victoria?

There will be no likelihood of a significant number of WLL paths - the LO 4 tph, and 2 tph SN service, one to Shepherds Bush only - is supposedly about all the route can handle with the freights, according to various previous RUS reports.

However they could go onto Crossrail:

the WCML Crossrail extension options appear
to be highly relevant to the implementation
of High Speed 2, both during the construction
phase and following its completion. WCML
Crossrail options have potential to reduce both
train and passenger numbers at London Euston,
assisting with the construction phase and
after implementation. This would also apply to
passengers at Euston Underground station and
on the London Underground Northern Line (both
branches) and Victoria Line

which is taken from the London and Southeast 2nd generation RUS draft...

 

[tbtc]

...and it will just be the shoes, like before. The Desiro shoe arms are liftable, so with the shoe itself removed they are practically out of sight.

Maybe '350/1s are no longer DC capable' should go in the railway myths list...

I think it should

 

[cle]

...and it will just be the shoes, like before. The Desiro shoe arms are liftable, so with the shoe itself removed they are practically out of sight.

Maybe '350/1s are no longer DC capable' should go in the railway myths list...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



There will be no likelihood of a significant number of WLL paths - the LO 4 tph, and 2 tph SN service, one to Shepherds Bush only - is supposedly about all the route can handle with the freights, according to various previous RUS reports.

However they could go onto Crossrail:



which is taken from the London and Southeast 2nd generation RUS draft...

Interesting, thanks for that.

I wonder what would be needed to link to the WCML, infrastructure-wise - if this was announced and begun in a few years time, midway through the Crossrail build.

In order to call at Old Oak Common, which is intended judging by the comments about LHR links to Milton Keynes etc... - they would then need to access the NLL and then share tracks past the recycling centre and join the low level line from the WLL there. Or they could go up the Dudden Hill line, but that would avoid Willesden Junction, which would be a big waste.

 

[michael315]

If HS2 goes ahead London Overground services from Watford Junction would probably still serve Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead but then use Primrose Hill and join the NLL at Camden Road and continue to Stratford. This is the service they run when the Euston-South Hampstead and Richmond-Camden Road line is blocked. If the LM services are diverted to Crossrail it would overcapacitate Crossrail.

 

[swt_passenger]

If HS2 goes ahead London Overground services from Watford Junction would probably still serve Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead but then use Primrose Hill and join the NLL at Camden Road and continue to Stratford. This is the service they run when the Euston-South Hampstead and Richmond-Camden Road line is blocked. If the LM services are diverted to Crossrail it would overcapacitate Crossrail.

There is NO CAPACITY on the NLL to run such a service - you've just explained yourself that it is only being done because there are no trains between Richmond/Clapham Jn and Camden Rd.

The NLR infrastructure project only allows for 6 tph offpeak plus freight.

 

[Nym]

If the LM services are diverted to Crossrail it would overcapacitate Crossrail.

Correct me if I'm wrong but LM run 3tph to Tring with 1 extended to MKC and 2tph to Northampton with 1 extended to Birmingham NS then 1tph to Crewe via TV, Stafford & Stoke, so 6tph. Do remind me, how many trains from Shenfeild off peak will be terminating at Paddington? 4tph I beleive. and Abbey Wood will have two IIRC...

 

[swt_passenger]

Correct me if I'm wrong but LM run 3tph to Tring with 1 extended to MKC and 2tph to Northampton with 1 extended to Birmingham NS then 1tph to Crewe via TV, Stafford & Stoke, so 6tph. Do remind me, how many trains from Shenfeild off peak will be terminating at Paddington? 4tph I beleive. and Abbey Wood will have two IIRC...

There is capacity to run 14tph extra trains onto Crossrail from the west in the peaks. A few off the WCML is easy - hence the quote from NR I put in my post on 13th Jan. The relevant RUS draft only assumes diverting the Tring services.

 

[TomJ93]

Would a 350/1 be able to pass it's electrics to a 350/2 thats attached to it?

 

[cle]

In the peaks, there are plenty more Tring, Bletchley and MK services, with some quite random stopping patterns to ensure semi-fast journeys for most places. Leighton Buzzard does very well, incidentally!

These aren't really clockface though so might need a recast if integrated into Crossrail.

The slows north of Willesden Junction can handle more than the 6tph. I would imagine by this point that there were 2tph Tring, 2tph Bletchley/MK and 2tph Northampton (if they go so far) as with Crossrail, the frequencies will all be in 2tph pairs.

In terms of Primrose Hill, I think they should trial extending the Stratford - Camden peak extras all through to Willesden Junction and back via Queens Park, to see if demand exists and if this link should be developed further, including a Chalk Farm interchange station at Primrose Hill.

 

[swt_passenger]

In terms of Primrose Hill, I think they should trial extending the Stratford - Camden peak extras all through to Willesden Junction and back via Queens Park, to see if demand exists and if this link should be developed further, including a Chalk Farm interchange station at Primrose Hill.

There aren't going to be any Stratford - Camden peak extras in the finalised timetable. I'm pretty sure that idea was binned once it was decided not to build the turnback platform at Camden Rd.

May's peak service is:
4 tph Richmond - Stratford
4 tph Clapham Jn - Stratford.
Offpeak service:
4 tph Richmond - Stratford
2 tph Clapham Jn - Stratford
2 tph Clapham Jn - Willesden Jn

I doubt the Bakerloo and DC line combined peak service would allow for any additional trains between Willeseden Jn and Queens Park. That'll be why this week's temporary service is a diversion of the DC line service - if it was possible to run additional through trains surely they'd already be doing it?

 

[Nym]

Also, Primrose Hill - NLL is going to be used by HS2 for the St Pancras / HS1 connection, no mention if it will be an in place upgrade to EU Loading Guage so NLL trains can continue to use it, or HS2 only...

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry to be the bearer of realism, but we all seem to be missing the point. Why do you need to divert?

During Euston Remodelling in 2000, the entire service* was run off 11 platforms for the best part of 6 months, with only one pair of lines form Willesden for 2 months of this. At peak times the service intensity then was the same as it is now; although off peak the service now is a little more intensive than it was. There's no reason that the same principles couldn't be applied in a few years time.

The work needed for HS2 - if it happens - would only need part of Euston to be closed at any one time. The signalling and layout at Euston facilitates this.

* entire service is a slight fib; DC services terminated at Kilburn High Road for the duration, and peak paths were reduced by 2 per hour which was offset by lengthening most Silverlonk (as they were) services to 12 car. Given that almost every LM peak service to/from Euston has spare capacity now this wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Aictos]

Would a 350/1 be able to pass it's electrics to a 350/2 thats attached to it?

In short do you mean can a 350/1 on DC power, push a 350/2 which is AC only?

I can't see why not especially as it's possible for 319s as a example to only have the pan up on the trailing unit and not the leading unit when in AC areas but I'm sure someone can verify it in a while.

 

[swt_passenger]

May's peak service is:
4 tph Richmond - Stratford
4 tph Clapham Jn - Stratford.
Offpeak service:
4 tph Richmond - Stratford
2 tph Clapham Jn - Stratford
2 tph Clapham Jn - Willesden Jn

By the way, if anyone buys RAIL magazine, you'll see that on pages 14 and 15 he describes the service as above in the text, but also includes a table that describes the earlier proposal for a Camden - Stratford shuttle - which is now completely out of date... :roll: