Southern 313 withdrawal, planned date?

[HamworthyGoods]

Taking the 377/5s from Maidstone routes and giving them Networkers is a backwards step in terms of quality. I would be to pleased if this was my local routes unless my fares went down.

However for places like Chichester replacing the 313s with 377s undoes a backward step so it’s a case of winners and losers as is often the case.

 

[railwaytrack]

Are we likely to see more strikes and chaos when the 313s get withdrawn? This is the first time they have gotten rid of more Guards since the main strikes a few years ago so i can not imagine they will quietly agree to this and become OBSs without any strikes? Maybe a few lucky Guards will be able to get transfers to either Eastbourne/Selhurst for Marshlink/Uckfield 171s but most will probably become OBSs when the 313s go. So i doubt the Drivers and Guards will be happy about this and i can not see them accepting it without more strikes.

 

[Bishopstone]

Do I misremember, or was part of the 2017 settlement an agreement not to extend DOO/OBS working further across the Southern network?

 

[JonathanH]

Are we likely to see more strikes and chaos when the 313s get withdrawn?

What would be the purpose of strikes? All the drivers already work DOO on 377s over the same routes and the guards withdrawing their labour doesn't affect anything once the 313s are gone.

 

[railwaytrack]

Do I misremember, or was part of the 2017 settlement an agreement not to extend DOO/OBS working further across the Southern network?

Indeed i am sure i remember they agreed not to extend DOO any more. So if they withdraw the 313s and run the replacement 377s as DOO with OBSs than that breaks the agreement. So i can certainly see strikes happening when the 313s get withdrawn.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2022 ==

What would be the purpose of strikes? All the drivers already work DOO on 377s over the same routes and the guards withdrawing their labour doesn't affect anything once the 313s are gone.

Well i doubt the Guards will be happy with becoming OBSs and loosing their safety critical role. Nor will the Drivers be happy with driving extra DOO trains. Even before the main 2016/2017/2018 strikes many drivers drove a mixture of DOO and Guard operated trains but that did not mean they were happy to see DOO extended and for them to drive extra DOO trains.

 

[DanNCL]

What would be the purpose of strikes? All the drivers already work DOO on 377s over the same routes and the guards withdrawing their labour doesn't affect anything once the 313s are gone.

Except the 171s...

 

[JonathanH]

Well i doubt the Guards will be happy with becoming OBSs and loosing their safety critical role.

I doubt they will be but there if they withdraw their labour the trains will still run. Did the guard dispute ever actually end on Southern? Once the drivers accepted DCO the strikes had no effect.

Nor will the Drivers be happy with driving extra DOO trains.

I'm not sure they have a case. How could they argue they aren't comfortable driving a 377 DCO on a former 313 service while driving 377s DCO on the rest of their shift over the same routes?

Even before the main 2016/2017/2018 strikes many drivers drove a mixture of DOO and Guard operated trains but that did not mean they were happy to see DOO extended and for them to drive extra DOO trains.

There is no extension of DCO to routes on which it doesn't currently apply, just services. The 2016/2017/2018 strikes involved extending DCO to routes which were not previously covered.

Except the 171s...

Yes, I agree but they operate over a very small part of the network.

 

[railwaytrack]

Except the 171s...

All of the Guards that sign the 171s are located at Eastbourne/Selhurst depots while all of the Guards that sign the 313s are located at Barnham/Brighton depots so the withdrawal of the 313s will not affect the 171s Guards as they are completely separate depots. It seems the Guards at Eastbourne/Selhurst are safe for now as there are no plans for 171s to be replaced. Even if these Guards were to strike then i am sure Southern have enough managers to still run all trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2022 ==

I doubt they will be but there if they withdraw their labour the trains will still run. Did the guard dispute ever actually end on Southern? Once the drivers accepted DCO the strikes had no effect.


I'm not sure they have a case. How could they argue they aren't comfortable driving a 377 DCO on a former 313 service while driving 377s DCO on the rest of their shift over the same routes?



There is no extension of DCO to routes on which it doesn't currently apply, just services. The 2016/2017/2018 strikes involved extending DCO to routes which were not previously covered.


Yes, I agree but they operate over a very small part of the network.

Before the 2016/2017/2018 strikes all of 377 trains on the BML that originated or terminated at East Coastway and West Coastway stations had to have a Guard all the way along the BML to and from London Victoria. But yet all of the 377 trains that originated or terminated at Brighton would run DOO all the way to and from London Victoria. So during the same time many drivers would drive both DOO and Guard operated 377s along the same exact track on the BML. So the same argument applied back then that drivers already drove DOO trains of the same class on the same lines but yet the drivers still went on strikes.

I agree though that the Guards going on strike would not really achieve anything. Even if they started striking before the 313s were fully withdrawn or if possibly the Eastbourne/Selhurst Guards joined the strikes i reckon Southern would get their managers to work as Guards so there would be very little effect. So unfortunately i think unless the Drivers strike there would be very little chance of a Guards strike having any effect. Like you say the Guard dispute never officially ended on Southern unlike others like Northern Rail where they won.

Who knows what will happen. It all depends on whether or not the Drivers strike. I am sure there is an agreement that DOO would not be extended so the Drivers might try to use this to strike.

 

[JonathanH]

Before the 2016/2017/2018 strikes all of 377 trains on the BML that originated or terminated at East Coastway and West Coastway stations had to have a Guard all the way along the BML to and from London Victoria. But yet all of the 377 trains that originated or terminated at Brighton would run DOO all the way to and from London Victoria. So during the same time many drivers would drive both DOO and Guard operated 377s along the same exact track on the BML. So the same argument applied back then that drivers already drove DOO trains of the same class on the same lines but yet the drivers still went on strikes.

Not quite. Brighton trains formed of more than 9 coaches had to have a guard before the extension of DOO so it wasn't quite so simple. I get the point but the current change seems to be much more minor.

I guess one relevant question is what happens already if 377s substitute for a 313 on a service booked for a guard. Is the 377 operated DCO in that instance - eg do guards work in the same manner as an OBS?

 

[Bishopstone]

I guess one relevant question is what happens already if 377s substitute for a 313 on a service booked for a guard. Is the 377 operated DCO in that instance - eg do guards work in the same manner as an OBS?

This was relevant today, as for some reason the Seafords were all 377-worked. I believe the Guards operate in the manner of OBS in this instance - ie no ‘ding ding and away’ - but I’m sure someone will be along with a correction, if this is wrong.

 

[railwaytrack]

Not quite. Brighton trains formed of more than 9 coaches had to have a guard before the extension of DOO so it wasn't quite so simple. I get the point but the current change seems to be much more minor.

I guess one relevant question is what happens already if 377s substitute for a 313 on a service booked for a guard. Is the 377 operated DCO in that instance - eg do guards work in the same manner as an OBS?

This was relevant today, as for some reason the Seafords were all 377-worked. I believe the Guards operate in the manner of OBS in this instance - ie no ‘ding ding and away’ - but I’m sure someone will be along with a correction, if this is wrong.

Yes whenever a 313 gets replaced with a 377 then the Guard just acts as an OBS and does not operate the doors or despatch the train. I have seen this happen many times before. Although i believe that when this happens their official title is changed from "Conductor" to "Assisting Conductor" but they are not referred to as an "On Board Supervisor" as they are still rules trained and safety critical.

 

[paul1609]

Would Brighton be the best place to go to see them/ride on them 1 last time? Wouldn't mind some pics before they go

I'd say Barnham or Littlehampton, they have diagrams on the Littlehampton to Portsmouth and Bognor service as well as some diagrams on Brighton to Portsmouth if it's reinstated in May.
Littlehampton also has its semaphore starters and the harbours only 10 mins walk from the station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2022 ==

All of the Guards that sign the 171s are located at Eastbourne/Selhurst depots while all of the Guards that sign the 313s are located at Barnham/Brighton depots so the withdrawal of the 313s will not affect the 171s Guards as they are completely separate depots. It seems the Guards at Eastbourne/Selhurst are safe for now as there are no plans for 171s to be replaced. Even if these Guards were to strike then i am sure Southern have enough managers to still run all trains.

I suspect that even if the 171s were to be replaced on Marshlink you'd need considerable infrastructure expenditure to implement DOO working, is there anywhere else that ASDO is used to open the doors in 1 or 2 coaches of a 2 or 4 coach mu on a reversible single line?

 

[railwaytrack]

I'd say Barnham or Littlehampton, they have diagrams on the Littlehampton to Portsmouth and Bognor service as well as some diagrams on Brighton to Portsmouth if it's reinstated in May.
Littlehampton also has its semaphore starters and the harbours only 10 mins walk from the station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2022 ==


I suspect that even if the 171s were to be replaced on Marshlink you'd need considerable infrastructure expenditure to implement DOO working, is there anywhere else that ASDO is used to open the doors in 1 or 2 coaches of a 2 or 4 coach mu on a reversible single line?

Yes indeed with 171s a Guard is require as eight of the stations on the line, Pevensey Bay (3), Normans Bay (3), Three Oaks (1), Doleham (1), Winchelsea (3), Rye (3), Appledore (2), Ham Street (3), all have short platforms and all trains have 4 coaches so a Guard is needed to operate the door deselect on 171s at these stations.

However if the stock was replaced than ASDO could definitely be used at all these stations. ASDO is more than capable of working for just one coach and on a platform used in both directions. GWR at Combe and Finstock on the class 800s and 802s use ASDO for just one coach. Also the AGA class 745s and 755s also use ASDO at Berney Arms for one coach too.

 

[387star]

The agreement said no more DOO/DCO but the DOO was rolled out on west and east coastway routes where the 313s also operate so as far as I know replacing 313s with trains that already run on the same routes Driver Only (with or without an OBS) does not break the agreement. By early 2018 the strikes fizzled out and were largely for the sake of coinciding with other operators strikes . I have heard Drivers are more militant now about accepting trains with no OBS

Meanwhile on Thameslink there is true DOO. Driver yesterday seemingly happily making announcements on the move

 

[Watershed]

The agreement said no more DOO/DCO but the DOO was rolled out on west and east coastway routes where the 313s also operate so as far as I know replacing 313s with trains that already run on the same routes Driver Only (with or without an OBS) does not break the agreement. By early 2018 the strikes fizzled out and were largely for the sake of coinciding with other operators strikes . I have heard Drivers are more militant now about accepting trains with no OBS

Meanwhile on Thameslink there is true DOO. Driver yesterday seemingly happily making announcements on the move

Indeed and they even run fully DOO on routes where Southern services require an OBS (East Grinstead, Littlehampton etc.). So nothing really stopping the DfT from instructing GTR to hire more drivers on Thameslink contracts, add 377s to their traction knowledge, and use them to convert to full DOO.

 

[Vespa]

What route do they operate on ?
I would like catch them before they're withdrawn and compare them to Merseyrail class 507/8

 

[zwk500]

What route do they operate on ?
I would like catch them before they're withdrawn and compare them to Merseyrail class 507/8

Brighton-Seaford and Brighton-West Coastway services.

 

[paul1609]

I think the issue with OBS on Southern is that the Southern services call at many un/part time manned stations where the OBS provides the assistance to board the train for the disabled. Thameslink generally only call on BML stations and oddities like the one off Littlehampton run at a time when all the ticket offices are open.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2022 ==

Brighton-Seaford and Brighton-West Coastway services.

I think in practice the Seaford services are often substituted by 377s. The Brighton to Ore services are also quite often Gatwick Express 387s. There's usually quite a few 313s standing idle at Brighton.

 

[zwk500]

I think in practice the Seaford services are often substituted by 377s.

Quite possibly, but today there's a 313 listed as running a Seaford service in TRUST.

 

[Bishopstone]

I think in practice the Seaford services are often substituted by 377s.

Not often. Most days, all three Seaford diagrams are 313. Things change if Brighton are playing football at home, or a 313 fails during the day, but as a rule the service is 313 dominated.

Why there were 377s out on the Seafords yesterday (Sunday), I’m not sure, but there would have been plenty of spare Electrostars at Brighton due to the engineering blockade of the main line.

 

[387star]

Quite possibly, but today there's a 313 listed as running a Seaford service in TRUST.

Certainly saw a 313 at Seaford from the top deck of the excellent coaster bus route 12x on Friday

 

[paul1609]

The West Coastway is where the real 313 action is 13.17s at Ford.

 

[Fincra5]

DCO is on all the routes of GTR that operate with the exception of the West London Line (North of Shepherds Bush), Uckfield-Oxted and Ore-Ashford Intl (Marshlink).

As other have said, when a 313 is replaced by a 377/387 the Conductor, in essence, acts like an OBS - Kind of Similar to the setup on GA. Therefore it wouldn't really be an extension of DCO...

However 313's are probably good for another 20 years. Get that PEP to 60years...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

DCO is on all the routes of GTR that operate with the exception of the West London Line (North of Shepherds Bush), Uckfield-Oxted and Ore-Ashford Intl (Marshlink).

As other have said, when a 313 is replaced by a 377/387 the Conductor, in essence, acts like an OBS - Kind of Similar to the setup on GA. Therefore it wouldn't really be an extension of DCO...

However 313's are probably good for another 20 years. Get that PEP to 60years...

313201 is already 46 years old...