Would missing a train owing to a lengthy queue at a booking office qualify for delay repay?

[AM9]

I have been reading the recent thread 'Merseyrail Penalty Fare - no facility to purchase' in which @Watershed commented that "TOCs basically say that if the queue is long, it's tough luck and you're supposed to miss the train."
On a frequent local or Metro service that might be inconvenient, but generally would probably just be an irritant. On a line where passengers start their journey that involves an infrequent connection, maybe long distance with an advance ticket for the major part of the journey, the consequences could be both expensive and severely disruptive for the passenger. There doesn't seem to be recommended times to allow for such delays at starting stations so could a delay claim be made and iof it could how much time would the passenger be expected to allow before a claim would be entertained?

 

[AlterEgo]

If you haven’t purchased your ticket and you haven’t started your journey then you don’t have a contract, surely? Your entitlement only starts with the purchase of your ticket, no?

The situation may be different if there are no ticket facilities at the *start* of the journey and you are buying mid-journey.

People who are more au fait with contract law can weigh in, I’m sure!

 

[SussexMan]

If you haven’t purchased your ticket and you haven’t started your journey then you don’t have a contract, surely?

Previously purchased but needing to collect?

 

[Watershed]

If you haven’t purchased your ticket and you haven’t started your journey then you don’t have a contract, surely? Your entitlement only starts with the purchase of your ticket, no?

The situation may be different if there are no ticket facilities at the *start* of the journey and you are buying mid-journey.

People who are more au fait with contract law can weigh in, I’m sure!

Even if you travel without a ticket, there is still an implied contract in place. There are potential civil or criminal penalties for the ticketless travel, but that is a separate issue.

The reason why you wouldn't be eligible for delay compensation is that you cannot claim for a delay you're aware of at the point you buy your ticket, nor can you claim for delays incurred before the contract is in place. Obviously if you're queueing up to buy a ticket, you're going to fall foul of both of those.

It's an unfortunate and rather unfair situation. Really there ought to be a national policy on issues which are currently vague (and could be interpreted against the passenger), such as:

• What happens if you have bought a ticket for ToD collection, but are unable to pick it up due to advertised station facilities being unavailable/unserviceable
• What happens if there are facilities to buy a ticket, but not the ticket(s) you intend to buy
• What happens if there is a long queue to buy tickets - how long are you expected to wait before you can buy onboard

Unfortunately there is a complete lack of joined-up thinking and these kinds of issues simply slip through the cracks, being written off as an "edge case" or "not our fault".

 

[etr221]

As I recall when 'Customer Charter' first came in (so I think pre privatisation) one of the standards it did contain was the time within which you should be sold a ticket (including queuing) - vague memory is it perhaps 10 minutes (but it did vary between peak and off-peak).

 

[Watershed]

As I recall when 'Customer Charter' first came in (so I think pre privatisation) one of the standards it did contain was the time within which you should be sold a ticket (including queuing) - vague memory is it perhaps 10 minutes (but it did vary between peak and off-peak).

Indeed. That seems to have been quietly eroded over time, like many of the safeguards that were promised upon privatisation and the introduction of Penalty Fares.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Believe Southern's Passenger's Charter (July 2021 version) talks about not having to wait for more than five minutes before being served during busy peak periods when queuing at their ticket offices, and no more than three minutes during other times.

Not sure what happens if these targets aren't met.

 

[AM9]

If your travel was pressing enough (e.g. hospital appointment) maybe at twice that suggested time would be considered reason for a claim. The problem is not usually the actual time lost waiting in a queue, but the result of missing a train and even more serious consequences if a subsequent critical connection was to be missed.

 

[Kilopylae]

I'm confident I once saw something on National Rail Enquiries (or some other non-TOC source) which asserted there were 'maximum' queue times of 5 minutes Off-Peak and 10 minutes at peak times. If such a statement does indeed exist it could be argued that a queue of over 5 (or 10) minutes means there are 'no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of a ticket' for the purposes of Byelaw 17(3), as a ticket office with a queue longer than the publicly-stated maximum is not 'in working order'.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Believe Southern's Passenger's Charter (July 2021 version) talks about not having to wait for more than five minutes before being served during busy peak periods when queuing at their ticket offices, and no more than three minutes during other times.

Not sure what happens if these targets aren't met.

Well - when they moved the Brighton ticket office a few years back, it took five minutes to even find it! I only once remember being served at that ticket office w ith less than 5 minutes in the queue!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I was hoping one of the experts would be able to quote the exact passage and document.

But yes there is, or was until fairly recently, a document setting out the maximum queueing time at each ticket office for peak and off-peak times. Not meeting those times would be a failure on the part of the operator. What the remedy is, who could pursue that remedy, and whether they are remotely interested in doing so, is another matter.

Whether that would entitle you to board a train without a ticket and without penalty is also another matter. Legally I would say no, morally I would say yes. But, where you commence a journey where there are no ticket purchasing facilities, you do not have to delay yourself and miss a connecting train in order to buy a ticket at the first opportunity. So the same principle ought to apply in the instance of an excessive wait at your origin.

 

[miklcct]

I have been reading the recent thread 'Merseyrail Penalty Fare - no facility to purchase' in which @Watershed commented that "TOCs basically say that if the queue is long, it's tough luck and you're supposed to miss the train."
On a frequent local or Metro service that might be inconvenient, but generally would probably just be an irritant. On a line where passengers start their journey that involves an infrequent connection, maybe long distance with an advance ticket for the major part of the journey, the consequences could be both expensive and severely disruptive for the passenger. There doesn't seem to be recommended times to allow for such delays at starting stations so could a delay claim be made and iof it could how much time would the passenger be expected to allow before a claim would be entertained?

I think the minimum connection time can serve as a good indicator of the expected time, i.e. 15 minutes at most London Terminals, and 5 minutes at most intermediate stations.

 

[mmh]

How about where a ticket office won't sell you a ticket?

Today's TFW fun: I hold a season ticket between station A and C. A has no trains today. I travel to intermediate station B. I want to travel to station D outside my ticket's validity, so ask for a B to D return at the ticket office, which is adjacent to the platform, 4 minutes before departure. I'm told to just get on the train and buy on board. No staff come through.

At station D, which is barriered, the gates are in use and being patrolled by TFW staff and a BTP officer. It takes me over 10 minutes to get a ticket as the staff and policeman pay much attention to the guy in front of me, who also wants a B to D ticket but is a bit gobby and I'm sure carrying a can of Stella (nothing wrong with that in itself) aroused their interest.

I think in future I might have to swallow my distaste and buy tickets on an app when doing this, although I quite resent being forced that way.

 

[AlterEgo]

Apps don’t argue with you and are far superior if you just want to buy a ticket. Booking offices aren’t charities. They have to exist on their own merits, and frankly, in many cases, those merits have been largely exhausted.

 

[maniacmartin]

It's the TOCs' Passenger/Customer Charters that set out the maximum queue times. Sadly though, last time I checked, they are a target that the TOCs aim to meet, but don't guarantee.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the minimum connection time can serve as a good indicator of the expected time, i.e. 15 minutes at most London Terminals, and 5 minutes at most intermediate stations.

It doesn’t. It’s the allowed time to get between trains/platforms.

 

[mmh]

Apps don’t argue with you and are far superior if you just want to buy a ticket. Booking offices aren’t charities.

Bizarre comment. I'm not a charity either. Why should I be delayed by a police officer's presence?

 

[AlterEgo]

Bizarre comment. I'm not a charity either. Why should I be delayed by a police officer's presence?

Well quite, having a ticket in advance would have meant you got through! Instead you waited ten minutes to buy a ticket you could have bought online.

The app doesn't tell you it can't be arsed selling you a ticket and to just buy on board (which opens you up to more problems...).

I don't understand the predilection of people who know exactly what ticket they need to use a person behind glass to sell it to them...when those tickets are available online.

 

[miklcct]

It's the TOCs' Passenger/Customer Charters that set out the maximum queue times. Sadly though, last time I checked, they are a target that the TOCs aim to meet, but don't guarantee.

So what protection does a passenger have if
* there is no ticket machine
* there is only 1 ticket window opening, with a queue where passengers are doing lengthy operations such as buying season ticket
* it's impossible to buy the required ticket on the web as an e-ticket?

 

[Watershed]

So what protection does a passenger have if
* there is no ticket machine
* there is only 1 ticket window opening, with a queue where passengers are doing lengthy operations such as buying season ticket
* it's impossible to buy the required ticket on the web as an e-ticket?

None, at least none that's explicitly written down.