Merseyrail should be extended to Wigan Wallgate

[Bletchleyite]

Ormskirk is a "large" town between September and May while the students are at Edge Hill Uni. In the summer it's a bit of a ghost town.

It's quieter in summer, but it's not small, and it (and Aughton Park/Town Green) have plenty of Liverpool commuters and always have had. The students are largely* irrelevant to the railway - they mostly live and study in Ormskirk itself. They might use it twice a term to get to/from there if not taken by car, plus the odd Liverpool night out.

* Obviously some will live with their parents and commute to Edge Hill.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2022 ==

I wouldn't be against Burscough Bridge, so long as Merseyrail remained separated. That would probably mean also reinstating the north curve for Preston-Burscough and cutting Preston-Ormskirk.

I think that is the best, most economic way to do the Curves and create benefits for connectivity in Lancashire. A two-island station could be created slightly west of the present one to allow for turnouts to fit after the bridge. It would mean Merseyrail would have to share the line for about 10 metres to get past the bridge, but I think that's a bit de-minimis and only like Chester or Hunts Cross where the same happens for a very short section.

Regarding Preston you could do single-unit Burscough Bridge to Preston, or you could keep the second unit and run Preston-Southport, for which there's reasonable demand by bus, and that could take over New Lane and Bescar Lane calls on alternating hours, speeding up both Manchester services.

It could be done without redoubling Ormskirk-Burscough if a layover siding or second platform was added at Ormskirk. You could also open a new station at Burscough Mill Dam Lane (possibly just Burscough South) to serve the huge and expanding new developments in the area, another 1970s Merseyrail proposal.

 

[WAO]

I don't see why extending Merseyrail to W Wallgate need wreck its reliability, if it were to remain self-contained and confined to the terminal bay platform 3 (a single face is adequate at Kirkby and Ormskirk). It might be at risk if much single track remained.

However, I contend that Liverpool's rail problem is that it is too inward looking and has lost its links to East Lancashire etc with the closure of Liverpool Exchange. Yes, the cotton trade has almost gone but there are still large hard working Lancashire towns that are finding other occupations and businesses. I don't think that the Beeching approach of developing the L&M but not the L&Y system has worked. The creeping L&Y electrifications out of Manchester demonstrate this.

I'm not convinced of the Skelmersdale branch - the modern town is too diffuse and spread out for a terminal to work - apart from the cost. Given better road access, Rainford Jn and Upholland would still give better overall journeys for most, via a Wallgate - Liverpool service, than via a new terminal.

I'd be glad to see any development, all the same - the people deserve it.

WAO

 

[Almyle503]

It wouldn't be for people going from Wigan to Liverpool, though no doubt it would be attractive to that. It's a local route that mainly provides for the intermediate stations.

Yes. Wouldn't it be convenient for the people of Rainford, Upholland, Orrell and Pemberton to have a big town on one end of their line and a city on the other. Instead of what they have at the moment which is a big town on one end and a much smaller town in the outskirts of a city on the other.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. Wouldn't it be convenient for the people of Rainford, Upholland, Orrell and Pemberton to have a big town on one end of their line and a city on the other. Instead of what they have at the moment which is a big town on one end and a much smaller town in the outskirts of a city on the other.

Umm, they run through to Manchester at present. Unless it is electrified at 25kV, I can't see how this can viably continue, because Atherton definitely needs electrification of some kind and a Merseyrail style service.

 

[Almyle503]

I wouldn't be against Burscough Bridge, so long as Merseyrail remained separated. That would probably mean also reinstating the north curve for Preston-Burscough and cutting Preston-Ormskirk.

The other option is to keep Merseyrail as it is, reinstate the south curve and have direct Ormskirk-Southport service to compliment the Ormskirk-Preston service. These could take over serving the small stations at Bescar Lane and New Lane from the Southport-Manchester services.

I agree. Going north, there's nothing bigger than Burscough right up until Preston and would be good junction station for the Wigan to Southport line. It would be much better than Ormskirk being the interchangeable terminus considering it only became one because a railway was split up and given two buffers that face each other. But for where it is, Ormskirk isn't really made to be a terminus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2022 ==

Umm, they run through to Manchester at present. Unless it is electrified at 25kV, I can't see how this can viably continue, because Atherton definitely needs electrification of some kind and a Merseyrail style service.

Manchester is ages away. A lot more of them commute to Liverpool and Wigan is much better terminus because it's a junction instead of just a station that was on route somewhere originally and was just made an interchangeable terminus due to the line being split up and two buffers being made to face each other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2022 ==

It's a mile and a bit. There are other pairs of Merseyrail stations closer together than that, e.g. Moreton and Leasowe are just under 1km (0.6 miles) apart.

I agree Merseyrail should run into the Wigan Wallgate bay. This may yet happen at some point with the battery trains.

I'm aware that there are other stations that are closer. Walton and Orrell Park especially but that doesn't mean that, in my opinion, these stations also shouldn't be a bit further away. Also yes it would be quite convenient and that bay platform is barely used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester is ages away. A lot more of them commute to Liverpool

That isn't what people on here are saying, though.

 

[Gareth]

People on here think most Liverpool people commute to Manchester, so that isn't massively surprising.

Ultimately, it has to be either the current plan of Liverpool-Skem & Wigan/Manchester-Skem or Liverpool-Skem/Wigan with Wigan to Skem traffic having to change at Rainford.

 

[cle]

Manchester is ages away. A lot more of them commute to Liverpool and Wigan is much better terminus because it's a junction instead of just a station that was on route somewhere originally and was just made an interchangeable terminus due to the line being split up and two buffers being made to face each other.

I don't think that Atherton line folks commute to Liverpool? Unless the poster meant Ormskirk, in which case, yes of course.

As to the suggestion of the Ormskirk line running up to Preston as Merseyrail - makes sense from a network pov, but I'm not sure if the demand would be there at 4tph. Maybe! If Preston was a little larger and you had more off/counter-peak travel at scale.

In Japan, it would happen and be well used - but we don't quite work in the same way. Preston is still a hub for services, mainly of which are not accessible from Liverpool directly. But Liverpool has faster services via Wigan, and some directs beyond (Blackpool, the odd Cumbria/Glasgow).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that Atherton line folks commute to Liverpool?

Not many I expect, but people from Kirkby, Rainford, Orrell and Pemberton do commute to Manchester, and a college in Hindley was also mentioned above.

 

[Gareth]

I would be genuinely intrigued to learn of how many people work in Manchester and live in Kirkby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be genuinely intrigued to learn of how many people work in Manchester and live in Kirkby.

Having commuted from Aughton Park to Manchester, it isn't useful for that as it's so slow compared with via Lime St or Preston, but in practice most drive to Burscough Bridge.

I reckon out of the local stops Rainford probably associates mostly to Liverpool, but Orrell and Pemberton to Wigan and beyond.

 

[Gareth]

"Most" being how many?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Manchester is ages away. A lot more of them commute to Liverpool and Wigan is much better terminus because it's a junction instead of just a station that was on route somewhere originally and was just made an interchangeable terminus due to the line being split up and two buffers being made to face each other.

That isn't what people on here are saying, though.

Given that most passengers want through trains for their journeys wherever possible the best improvement for the current route, in other words discounting the Skelmersdale option, would be to move the operational splitting point from Kirkby to either Rainford or Upholland: almost nobody travels just between these two points and through passengers are few in number too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Most" being how many?

There is quite a lot of commuting from West Lancs to Manchester, but less so Kirkby I'd have thought.

What I was saying was that Kirkby to Manchester is of no use if you're coming from anywhere on Merseyrail because it's so slow compared with via Lime St.

 

[cle]

I would think Kirkby to Manchester is absolutely minimal. It's 'Greater Liverpool' through and through - and the journey to Manchester sucks.

 

[Gareth]

Indeed, I'd hazard an educated guess and say it's statistically insignificant.

 

[HSTEd]

My primary rationale for an extension to Wigan would be to eliminate the operationally inconvenient and effectively useless stub operation east of Kirkby and potentially generating more traffic into Liverpool.

Indeed if I could work out a practical way to take over the Atherton line, separated from the lines around it, I might suggest extending Merseyrail all the way to Manchester [as I did in the CLC thread], but there is no practical terminus!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My primary rationale for an extension to Wigan would be to eliminate the operationally inconvenient and effectively useless stub operation east of Kirkby and potentially generating more traffic into Liverpool.

Indeed if I could work out a practical way to take over the Atherton line, separated from the lines around it, I might suggest extending Merseyrail all the way to Manchester [as I did in the CLC thread], but there is no practical terminus!

Merseyrail to Manchester would be a very bad idea, it would bring unpunctuality to Merseyrail through interacting with too many services, and nobody would use it for a through journey as it would remain quicker to go via Lime St.

Wigan Wallgate bay on batteries does very much seem the sensible thing, even if that means rejigging Skem to allow a reversal there instead of two separate lines. Then you can do Atherton as a self-contained thing, be that as trams or as a Merseyrail like 4tph EMU service into North Western's bays, and the Southports can run via Bolton with bi-modes, when they're working at least. Or just have it as a single-DMU hourly shuttle from Skem, or perhaps even a rechargeable 230.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

I presume there's a reason no-one's proposing that all trains from Liverpool run into Skelmersdale, then reverse to reach Wigan — or even a Glossop-style solution where trains alternate between serving Skelmersdale in the Liverpool->Wigan and Wigan->Liverpool directions? Is it stock availability or is it in some way operationally unworkable?

 

[HSTEd]

Merseyrail to Manchester would be a very bad idea, it would bring unpunctuality to Merseyrail through interacting with too many services

That's why my statement was predicated on it still being isolated!

If there was a way to get a dedicated track through to Central Manchester then there would no interactions at all, just as now! [And on the CLC suggestion it would be effectively isolated apart from a tiny handful of freight services]

 

[Almyle503]

Merseyrail to Manchester would be a very bad idea, it would bring unpunctuality to Merseyrail through interacting with too many services, and nobody would use it for a through journey as it would remain quicker to go via Lime St.

Wigan Wallgate bay on batteries does very much seem the sensible thing, even if that means rejigging Skem to allow a reversal there instead of two separate lines. Then you can do Atherton as a self-contained thing, be that as trams or as a Merseyrail like 4tph EMU service into North Western's bays, and the Southports can run via Bolton with bi-modes, when they're working at least. Or just have it as a single-DMU hourly shuttle from Skem, or perhaps even a rechargeable 230.

Is that bay track at wallgate long enough for those new merseyrail trains?

 

[S&CLER]

Is that bay track at wallgate long enough for those new merseyrail trains?

It used to be longer and could be extended by digging out the part where the flowerbeds are; I can't say whether that would then be long enough for an 8-car 777 (which is slightly longer than a 6-car 507/508, I believe).

 

[MattRat]

Has anyone mentioned the proposal for a station at Carmill, St Helens. Apparently it's part of the Metro Mayor's 'Merseyrail for all' plan.

I could be wrong, but logically they'd create a spur on the Kirby/Wigan line from Kirby to St Helens, so Merseyrail trains could access it. This would then be the Merseyrail terminus, not Wigan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's why my statement was predicated on it still being isolated!

If there was a way to get a dedicated track through to Central Manchester then there would no interactions at all, just as now! [And on the CLC suggestion it would be effectively isolated apart from a tiny handful of freight services]

But then you lose the connectivity benefit of either Victoria or Piccadilly. In essence you'd be reopening Central, I suppose.

 

[cle]

If Atherton went to Metrolink, and maybe Kirkby-Wallgate passes to Merseyrail (similar to suggestions at Warrington Central) - how does the Southport line fit in? And at Wallgate, it would need some platform works - unless there was some Wigan street running possible, and it maybe got closer to North Western? And then both through platforms would be available for Southport-Manc trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has anyone mentioned the proposal for a station at Carmill, St Helens. Apparently it's part of the Metro Mayor's 'Merseyrail for all' plan.

I could be wrong, but logically they'd create a spur on the Kirby/Wigan line from Kirby to St Helens, so Merseyrail trains could access it. This would then be the Merseyrail terminus, not Wigan.

According to Wikipedia, which admittedly isn't the best source, it was and is proposed to be a station on the existing Liverpool-Wigan via St Helens Central route, between St Helens Central and Garswood, and as such not of relevance to Kirkby-Wigan.

Carr Mill railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2022 ==

If Atherton went to Metrolink, and maybe Kirkby-Wallgate passes to Merseyrail (similar to suggestions at Warrington Central) - how does the Southport line fit in?

2tph from Southport would run via Bolton, as per "Option B+", using bi-modes to take advantage of electrification via Westhoughton. Or wire Southport - it's a way off but not totally off the agenda.

 

[cle]

According to Wikipedia, which admittedly isn't the best source, it was and is proposed to be a station on the existing Liverpool-Wigan via St Helens Central route, between St Helens Central and Garswood, and as such not of relevance to Kirkby-Wigan.

Carr Mill railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2022 ==



2tph from Southport would run via Bolton, as per "Option B+", using bi-modes to take advantage of electrification via Westhoughton. Or wire Southport - it's a way off but not totally off the agenda.

Was thinking more in terms of lines and platforms at Wigan. I know the broader plan that they'd run roughly as today. Could a single track/platform face at Wigan be enough (if the other face is terminate the Met/Atherton?) is I suppose, another way of putting the question.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes. Wouldn't it be convenient for the people of Rainford, Upholland, Orrell and Pemberton to have a big town on one end of their line and a city on the other. Instead of what they have at the moment which is a big town on one end and a much smaller town in the outskirts of a city on the other.

Apart from Orrell, none of the intermediate stations are particularly convenient for significant local populations.
Rainford (formerly Rainford Junction) is at least a mile from Rainford, and has a tiny car park.
Upholland is located in Pimbo, a long walk from most of Upholland, has no proper car park (just a small bit of waste land) and no bus services.
Pemberton has some nearby houses within 5-10 minutes walking distance, but for journeys into Wigan, buses are probably the preferred choice; also it has no car park. So, none of them are large enough to merit high-frequency electrified services such as provided by Merseyrail.

Even Orrell does not have its own car park.

 

[Almyle503]

It used to be longer and could be extended by digging out the part where the flowerbeds are; I can't say whether that would then be long enough for an 8-car 777 (which is slightly longer than a 6-car 507/508, I believe).

It is longer yes. I believe the carriages are individually longer so god knows what will happen at stations like Green Lane that are too long for 6 car 507/508s let alone anything else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2022 ==

Has anyone mentioned the proposal for a station at Carmill, St Helens. Apparently it's part of the Metro Mayor's 'Merseyrail for all' plan.

I could be wrong, but logically they'd create a spur on the Kirby/Wigan line from Kirby to St Helens, so Merseyrail trains could access it. This would then be the Merseyrail terminus, not Wigan.

Where about would this spur be?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where about would this spur be?

Nowhere. Carrmill is on the Liverpool-Wigan line between St Helens C and Garswood.