Should preserved railways 1940s events go ahead this year?

[stuu]

Completely agree, 50s, 60s, 70s - plenty of lovely classic cars from that period, great music, interesting fashions and trends - probably the high point for railway enthusiasm and spotting.

Take the 1960s for example, The Beatles/Stones, lovely Morris Minors, MGs, e-types and Minis - cars and skirts! Mods and their Lambrettas, Dansette record players, The ‘66 World Cup, and most railways have exactly the right stock and locomotives to run properly authentic trains for the period - unlike the weird juxtaposition of MK1 stock and BR liveries with 1940s artefacts at WW2 events.

What’s not to like?

That sounds a far more sensible response to some of the people on this thread. How dare people have compassion! The Wokes won't even let us dress up as the SS any more! Whatever next

 

[43066]

That sounds a far more sensible response to some of the people on this thread. How dare people have compassion! The Wokes won't even let us dress up as the SS any more! Whatever next

I notice the only person who has mentioned dressing up as the SS is you.

Perhaps you can explain why this war is more deserving compassion of others? (Here’s a clue, this has nothing to do with compassion, everything to do with politically motivated “Churchill was a racist” virtue signalling).

I think it is just as likely that someone who never liked the WWII events (I don't usually go to them myself) has used Ukraine as an excuse to push their agenda. As others have said though - why all of a sudden Ukraine makes things different.

Precisely.

 

[stuu]

I notice the only person who has mentioned dressing up as the SS is you.

Perhaps you can explain why this war is more deserving compassion of others? (Here’s a clue, this has nothing to do with compassion, everything to do with politically motivated “Churchill was a racist” virtue signalling).

No more ludicrous than the notion this has anything to do with virtue signalling. Where's the proof? I, and others, have explained why this is different to other wars of recent years. But apparently those arguments are meaningless and it must be because of some bizarre cancel culture which is at best a fringe thing and mostly an invented bogeyman

 

[Falcon1200]

Personally I have no interest in attending any preserved railway wartime events, and of course it is up to each railway to decide whether they want to continue with such days, however..... Will air show events this year also be cancelled, as they tend to focus largely on military aircraft ?

 

[43066]

No more ludicrous than the notion this has anything to do with virtue signalling. Where's the proof?

I didn’t realise we were in a courtroom?

The claimed concern (from the HRA) is that these events might cause anguish to people of Ukrainian heritage?! Really?! Only to those with an exceptionally poor grasp of history… But if we go with that for a minute, isn’t it rather odd that Iraqi/Vietnamese/Syrian/Afghan visitors apparently don’t get so easily offended?

That obvious inconsistency to me is pretty good “proof” that real concern about people being offended isn’t what’s driving this.

It’s very clear to me and others that the statement from the HRA, which mentions considering whether to allow such events in future, is more about weaponising the Ukraine situation to achieve an objective.

I, and others, have explained why this is different to other wars of recent years. But apparently those arguments are meaningless and it must be because of some bizarre cancel culture which is at best a fringe thing and mostly an invented bogeyman

Well, no actually.

Looking back up the thread we’ve had: WW2 events compared to public hangings, someone making the factually incorrect claim that the Ukraine situation is “bigger then any war since WW2”; you making comparisons to programs about air crashes being taken off air after aviation disasters (again shown to be utterly wrong).

As for “inventing boogeymen”, what specifically did you mean by this?

The Wokes won't even let us dress up as the SS any more! Whatever next

You appear to be actually accusing people attending these events of being Nazi sympathisers, unless you meant to say something else?

For about the one millionth time of asking, can we please have a sensible explanation as to why this war is any different to (say) Gulf War 1 and 2, the long running Afghanistan occupation, the war against ISISs etc.

 

[stuu]

I didn’t realise we were in a courtroom?

The claimed concern (from the HRA) is that these events might cause anguish to people of Ukrainian heritage?! Really?! Only to those with an exceptionally poor grasp of history… But if we go with that for a minute, isn’t it rather odd that Iraqi/Vietnamese/Syrian/Afghan visitors apparently don’t get so easily offended?

That obvious inconsistency to me is pretty good “proof” that real concern about people being offended isn’t what’s driving this.

It’s very clear to me and others that the statement from the HRA, which mentions considering whether to allow such events in future, is more about weaponising the Ukraine situation to achieve an objective.

That doesn't seem very clear to me, it's as if people have different opinions on things. Where does the notion of allowing events or not come from? The HRA has absolutely no authority to cancel anything anywhere, so this is an invented concern.

Well, no actually.

Looking back up the thread we’ve had: WW2 events compared to public hangings, someone making the factually incorrect claim that the Ukraine situation is “bigger then any war since WW2”; you making comparisons to programs about air crashes being taken off air after aviation disasters (again shown to be utterly wrong).

My comparison with air crashes was not shown to be utterly wrong, it was misunderstood, probably wilfully. When something dramatic happens, in the UK, the BBC or ITV will drop programmes that might be considered insensitive, they just do, that's a fact. If a BA plane crashed today, there is no way that a film about a plane crash would be shown on prime TV this evening. That sort of thing happens fairly regularly; I don't see the concern about WW2 events to be any different.

As for “inventing boogeymen”, what specifically did you mean by this?

The whole notion of woke and cancel culture is just nonsense, it doesn't exist. A few idiots here and there say ludicrous things, which have no bearing on the rest of society. Some private organisations like student unions have said they won't have certain speakers is about as far as it goes. Student politics has always been like that, it was joked about 40 years ago.

You appear to be actually accusing people attending these events of being Nazi sympathisers, unless you meant to say something else?

For about the one millionth time of asking, can we please have a sensible explanation as to why this war is any different to (say) Gulf War 1 and 2, the long running Afghanistan occupation, the war against ISISs etc.

I was being a bit over the top saying that, I don't believe that people attending events are in any way Nazi sympathisers

For about the millionth time of explaining, this war is more significant as it could directly involve us, given Putin's threats of nuclear escalation. None of those other wars did, apart from the rise of terrorism... Even during the first Gulf War I can remember things being considered inappropriate, so it's hardly unprecedented

 

[WesternLancer]

Looking back up the thread we’ve had: WW2 events compared to public hangings,

As I have asked before - please see this in the context of the point I was replying to at the time.
Thanks

 

[joystick]

More silliness

Lincoln City to silence Dambusters March and air raid sirens due to Ukraine war

Lincoln City has asked supporters to support the move, sparked by Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[43096]

More silliness

Lincoln City to silence Dambusters March and air raid sirens due to Ukraine war

Lincoln City has asked supporters to support the move, sparked by Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

www.bbc.co.uk

It makes the comments by @stuu that there’s no woke or cancel culture look rather silly.

 

[WesternLancer]

More silliness

Lincoln City to silence Dambusters March and air raid sirens due to Ukraine war

Lincoln City has asked supporters to support the move, sparked by Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

www.bbc.co.uk

Out of interest, have Lincoln City been doing this since the film was made / music composed - or since Carling used it to advertise lager (c1989)?

 

[joystick]

Sorry I don't know.

 

[seagull]

People inventing bandwagons and then jumping on them without logic or rationale seems to have certainly got a lot more prevalent in this age of social media.

 

[43301]

It makes the comments by @stuu that there’s no woke or cancel culture look rather silly.

Indeed, and surely the clearest example of cancel culture in the past few years is the whole Covid narrative - anyone, no matter who they were (it included eminent scientists who were experts in relevant fields), who disagreed with any part of the narrative or approach taken by governments was routinely villified and excluded from having any say in the mainstream media. Meanwhile, social media companies were ruthlesslessly censoring and removing anything contrary to the official message, branding it 'misinformation' or 'false information', even if it was fully backed up with hard evidence.

 

[43066]

That doesn't seem very clear to me, it's as if people have different opinions on things. Where does the notion of allowing events or not come from? The HRA has absolutely no authority to cancel anything anywhere, so this is an invented concern.

I never said it did? The notion of allowing events (or not) comes from the decision makers at heritage railways deciding to cancel, in many cases hiding behind HRA’s advice rather than (as we were told upthread) because of shortages of volunteers/attendees.

So, no, it isn’t an invented concern.

The whole notion of woke and cancel culture is just nonsense, it doesn't exist. A few idiots here and there say ludicrous things, which have no bearing on the rest of society. Some private organisations like student unions have said they won't have certain speakers is about as far as it goes. Student politics has always been like that, it was joked about 40 years ago.

Student politics used to be confined to universities, nowadays it’s mainstream. It’s even practiced by the Official Opposition (particularly under its last leader)! It certainly didn’t used to be taken as gospel by quite so many people, especially those who exist in online echo chambers, whose response to views they don’t agree with is to try and silence them.

In stating how cancel culture doesn’t exist, aren’t you stating your own opinion as fact? As I’ve said above, cancel culture is something that only matters when your views are the ones being cancelled, so it’s hardly surprising you don’t personally see it as an issue. Perhaps that’s something to consider.

My comparison with air crashes was not shown to be utterly wrong, it was misunderstood, probably wilfully. When something dramatic happens, in the UK, the BBC or ITV will drop programmes that might be considered insensitive, they just do, that's a fact. If a BA plane crashed today, there is no way that a film about a plane crash would be shown on prime TV this evening. That sort of thing happens fairly regularly; I don't see the concern about WW2 events to be any different.

It’s a completely false comparison.

This is a war happening elsewhere in the world, not involving the U.K. at all. a better comparison would be if the BBC regularly cancelled programs based on plane crashes abroad, but only when they involved airlines carrying mostly white people. That’s basically exactly what you’re defending here.

I was being a bit over the top saying that, I don't believe that people attending events are in any way Nazi sympathisers

I’m glad you can acknowledge that. It’s worth reflecting on the fact that these events have historically been very popular with WW2 veterans. Those are people who have actually put themselves into harm’s way to oppose Naziism!

For about the millionth time of explaining, this war is more significant as it could directly involve us, given Putin's threats of nuclear escalation. None of those other wars did, apart from the rise of terrorism... Even during the first Gulf War I can remember things being considered inappropriate, so it's hardly unprecedented

Did I actually just read that?! Surely you’re aware that British troops were actually involved in Iraq/Afghan? Some of them even died - why didn’t we cancel WW2 events then?!

I notice the goalposts are now shifting. The HRA have told us the cancellation is because of the risk of offending the hoardes of Ukrainians who visit U.K. heritage railways. Now you’re telling us it’s because we’re all scared of the threat of nuclear war?!

I think it’s now clear you’ll look for any explanation for this, other than the obvious one.

Out of interest, have Lincoln City been doing this since the film was made / music composed - or since Carling used it to advertise lager (c1989)?

Probably since the end of the war, given that the raid was conducted from a base six miles away from Lincoln! (There were lots of bomber command bases in the fens and east Anglia.)

 

[Trainfan344]

There's plenty of people on here who keep repeating the same points.

Horrible racist people who are afraid of change or compassion.

I asked a simple question to engage a debate, with both sides of the argument clearly presented.

What this thread has shown is simply that some people have no idea what is going on in the world, the same people who accuse us of wanting to ignore history are ignoring the history that is happening at this very moment.

There's been some very interesting points raised on both sides by the more reasonable members but sadly this thread is let down by constant hyperbole and ignoring of the points being made.

 

[43066]

Horrible racist people who are afraid of change or compassion.

Can you point out the “horrible racist people”?

What this thread has shown is simply that some people have no idea what is going on in the world

Indeed it has.

 

[43301]

There's plenty of people on here who keep repeating the same points.

Horrible racist people who are afraid of change or compassion.

I asked a simple question to engage a debate, with both sides of the argument clearly presented.

What this thread has shown is simply that some people have no idea what is going on in the world, the same people who accuse us of wanting to ignore history are ignoring the history that is happening at this very moment.

There's been some very interesting points raised on both sides by the more reasonable members but sadly this thread is let down by constant hyperbole and ignoring of the points being made.

I've only looked at this thread recently, but not seen any comments on it from 'Horrible racist people who are afraid of change or compassion.'

You are right about some people having no idea of what is going on in the world though. Many people believe the Ukraine situation is a case of Ukraine=good, Russia=bad. In reality it's far more nuanced than this and the situation has been brewing for years (with the US stirring the pot, as usual). It is perhaps somewhat ironic that, whatever you think of the situation, it is clear that Ukraine has a significant Nazi element, and it is also clear that Putin is very much opposed to these Nazis.

Of course the victims in all this are the ordinary Ukrainian people, who have no control over any of it. But given what's happening in their country, it is extremely hard to believe that they will care one way or the other whether UK heritage railways cancel their WW2 re-enactment events - they have more important things to worry about, and the link is tenuous in the extreme.

It is also unclear, as others have said, why this particular war justifies cancelling events but none of the previous ones in recent decades (in many of which UK forces were involved) did. It does come across as virtue signalling, and as others have said if they wanted to do something positive it would have been better to hold the events and donate some of the proceeds to Ukraininan humanitarian causes.

I'm not a fan of these type of events at all - find them cringeworthy to be honest and would never go to one - but it's clear that many people enjoy them and they bring in signifiant revenue, so cancelling them seems a rather pointless thing to do. And it's a slippery slope - what reasons might someone find to cancel them, or other events, in future?

 

[yoyothehobo]

I mean back as far as 2005 people were kicking up a fuss over Nazi dressed re enactors at war time events. A quick google search can find that. Several 1940s events have been cancelled over the years its not a recent thing.

I guess it would be very easy for a small thing to generate a lot of negative publicity these days.

I agree that this war shouldnt be different morally. But the reality is that it is basically because of its proximity and scale. That cannot be denied.

I personally wouldnt go to a 1940s event, they have been done time and time again and i have had no interest in going. I dont understand a faux disneyland-esque reproduction of a pretty grim period in history heavily characterised by the indescriminate bombing of civilians.

I would prefer a 1930s or 20s event or maybe a 50s event personally, but each to their own.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I've only looked at this thread recently, but not seen any comments on it from 'Horrible racist people who are afraid of change or compassion.'

Indeed. However, the rants by that individual and his ilk are almost certainly one of the reasons these 1940's events are being cancelled.

Although I don't believe they should be cancelled I completely understand why they are being. Who, when organising an event, would want to risk that sort of person starting a social media campaign against them which would then turn into a social media mob, and as lazy, unprofessional journalists now prefer to get the "news" from Twitter rather than doing a real job, could quite easily get quite widespread negative publicity. This is a problem we as a society have brought on ourselves and it will only get worse.

 

[Davester50]

Horrible racist people who are afraid of change or compassion.

I asked a simple question to engage a debate, with both sides of the argument clearly presented.

So you only wanted a debate where people agreed with your view, and if they don't subscribe to it, they're horrible racists.
Right. Gotcha.

 

[Trainfan344]

Never said that did I?

 

[dakta]

Should preserved railways 1940s events go ahead this year?​

haven't read the entire thread but my gut response is yeah - If they want to.

I don't attend them, dressing up not my thing. But if they ran one I wouldn't link it to Ukraine or consider it disrespectful, perhaps it could even go the other way because you could get some fundraising in there with some of the parallels seen which for me would very much be in the spirit of things because one of the things I expect people do look fondly back of that terrible time was everything and everyone trying to pull together.

 

[Davester50]

Never said that did I?

You've failed to answer where the "horrible racist people" are in this thread.
Where are they?

 

[Trainfan344]

I'd say using the term brown people and complaining you can't dress up as the SS seem like fairly racist and horrible things to do.

 

[Darandio]

I'd say using the term brown people and complaining you can't dress up as the SS seem like fairly racist and horrible things to do.

That term was used once on page 1, I suggest you read it again to recognise the entirely valid point being made before painting the contributor as racist.

 

[Davester50]

I'd say using the term brown people

I wouldn't use that term, and if using it pejoratively then yes, absolutely. But it's not being here.

and complaining you can't dress up as the SS seem like fairly racist and horrible things to do.

I find it a bit weird, but not racist.

That term was used once on page 1, I suggest you read it again to recognise the entirely valid point being made before painting the contributor as racist.

Agreed.

 

[stuu]

It makes the comments by @stuu that there’s no woke or cancel culture look rather silly.

No, it is well intentioned, if misguided, for fear of upsetting people. I think there is quite a big difference between not organising specific events and changing a tradition like this example.

It's not cancel culture though, because that would imply it's being stopped because it is offensive or wrong, which from my reading of the article, isn't the case

 

[joystick]

Surely it is cancel culture, they are advising not to have them as they might cause anguish . why would you go somewhere that caused anguish surely must people can decide that for themselves .

 

[yoyothehobo]

Thats not cancel culture. Cancel culture is the act of ostracising a person or business based on a view they may have that is not the percieved main stream such as removing an authors book from a publisher because they are anti abortion. (just an example)

I would also say it was the habit of banning professional sportspeople for matches, for things that were said on social media 7,8,9 years ago.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That doesn't seem very clear to me, it's as if people have different opinions on things. Where does the notion of allowing events or not come from? The HRA has absolutely no authority to cancel anything anywhere, so this is an invented concern.


My comparison with air crashes was not shown to be utterly wrong, it was misunderstood, probably wilfully. When something dramatic happens, in the UK, the BBC or ITV will drop programmes that might be considered insensitive, they just do, that's a fact. If a BA plane crashed today, there is no way that a film about a plane crash would be shown on prime TV this evening. That sort of thing happens fairly regularly; I don't see the concern about WW2 events to be any different.

The whole notion of woke and cancel culture is just nonsense, it doesn't exist. A few idiots here and there say ludicrous things, which have no bearing on the rest of society. Some private organisations like student unions have said they won't have certain speakers is about as far as it goes. Student politics has always been like that, it was joked about 40 years ago.

I was being a bit over the top saying that, I don't believe that people attending events are in any way Nazi sympathisers

For about the millionth time of explaining, this war is more significant as it could directly involve us, given Putin's threats of nuclear escalation. None of those other wars did, apart from the rise of terrorism... Even during the first Gulf War I can remember things being considered inappropriate, so it's hardly unprecedented

Your bold - Ukraine is not in the UK so why draw a parralel with a plane crash in the UK ?.

People inventing bandwagons and then jumping on them without logic or rationale seems to have certainly got a lot more prevalent in this age of social media.

It is so easy for everyone to express themselves the result is more "variety" of opinion.

Indeed, and surely the clearest example of cancel culture in the past few years is the whole Covid narrative - anyone, no matter who they were (it included eminent scientists who were experts in relevant fields), who disagreed with any part of the narrative or approach taken by governments was routinely villified and excluded from having any say in the mainstream media. Meanwhile, social media companies were ruthlesslessly censoring and removing anything contrary to the official message, branding it 'misinformation' or 'false information', even if it was fully backed up with hard evidence.

The irony being that it transpires that the very government some of us were towing the line to/for was not sticking to their own rules very well !.

I suppose is that because of social media there will be a lot more opinions and many will vary more. It also means there will be a lot more disagreement. It is open conversation. The fear I have though is that this is an example of how groups/bodies play it safe as soon as someone points out something may be unpopular. It is my fear that the result is people just wanting to "fit in" or at least not stand out as different.