Build Additional Eurotunnel Terminals Further Inland

[TheGrew]

So Eurotunnel is considered to be a reasonable success however it still requires you to drive all the way down to Folkestone, putting considerable traffic on the M20 and M25, I imagine generating considerable greenhouse emissions.
I imagine a reasonable proportion of HGV and some Car traffic will be starting their journey north of the capital, I think therefore that it would make sense to build a second terminal somewhere on the M1 or M40 and have people able to join trains there.
Equally on the continental side there might be a similar situation where more traffic could be moved closer to it's destination.
Now I appreciate the channel tunnel loading gauge is enormous so it would need dedicated lines (I am NOT advocating using HS1 for this!) and probably some substantial tunnels but I could see a line on the UK side also being useful to able route freight traffic to the WCML/ECML.

I appreciate the above is very crayonista but I am interested in what others think.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've only used Eurotunnel a handful of times but I wouldn't fancy spending more time than it already takes onboard. It's pretty grim in those transport vehicles and that was in a bus that at least got put on one of the full height car transporters rather than one of the ones with two levels! Much better driving to Folkstone/Calais and getting on the train just for the short hop through the Tunnel.

 

[HSTEd]

If you were going to do this I imagine the business case, such as it is, would have to be based on lorry transports rather than cars. Although you would get cars they probably can't get enough for it to support the enormously expensive infrastructure.

And I disagree with the previous poster, I don't think sitting in a car or standing beside in a transport vehicle is any more grim than driving down a never ending and little changing motorway where you can't even do anything else.

 

[TheGrew]

I've only used Eurotunnel a handful of times but I wouldn't fancy spending more time than it already takes onboard. It's pretty grim in those transport vehicles and that was in a bus that at least got put on one of the full height car transporters rather than one of the ones with two levels! Much better driving to Folkstone/Calais and getting on the train just for the short hop through the Tunnel.

I agree that as it currently stands that the rolling stock isn't super exciting, I think adding an additional (dining?) coach to the consist might be good. I believe something like this is already done for the freight shuttles which drivers sit in rather than their cabs.

If you were going to do this I imagine the business case, such as it is, would have to be based on lorry transports rather than cars. Although you would get cars they probably can't get enough for it to support the enormously expensive infrastructure.

And I disagree with the previous poster, I don't think sitting in a car or standing beside in a transport vehicle is any more grim than driving down a never ending and little changing motorway where you can't even do anything else.

I also agree that the main market would be HGVs with the occasional car shuttle. I imagine (assuming the 87mph shuttle speed) that it would be a great deal quicker to stay on the train than drive the M20 + M25.

 

[ainsworth74]

And I disagree with the previous poster, I don't think sitting in a car or standing beside in a transport vehicle is any more grim than driving down a never ending and little changing motorway where you can't even do anything else.

Each to their own I suppose! But I found that once the novelty had worn off it was far more boring and depressing than being on the motorway proper. And there isn't anything to do, of course, on the Le Shuttle other than walk around the box you're in.

I agree that as it currently stands that the rolling stock isn't super exciting, I think adding an additional (dining?) coach to the consist might be good. I believe something like this is already done for the freight shuttles which drivers sit in rather than their cabs.

That starts to become an issue though with train length. Easy to stick a couple of carriages in the formation for the freight shuttles to accommodate all the drivers. They'll be almost certainly travelling solo with their HGV. The passenger shuttle of course will have families, coach parties, etc etc. Some sort of cafe car (don't think we'd need full dining!) might be nice as it would give you something to do but I doubt you'd be able to make it stack up having seat accommodation for all. At that point you've basically just recreated Motorail.

 

[edwin_m]

This is similar to part of the former Central Railway proposal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Railway_(UK)

Central Railway was a British company which proposed to build a new intermodal freight railway line, with a generous loading gauge, connecting the Channel Tunnel with the north of England, particularly Liverpool docks, using much of the trackbed of the former north-south Great Central Railway. The company argued that such a line could significantly cut road congestion by carrying lorries on flatbed rail trucks.

The company was formed in the late 1980s, and its proposals were controversial and faced opposition. The plans were rejected by the government in 1996 and again in 2003, largely because of doubts over financing its £8 billion cost, even though it was a private-sector project.

 

[bluenoxid]

Two destinations spring to mind. Daventry for the Midlands hubs and Irish Sea ports for a potential easy and quick non-UK transfer.

Any thoughts on potential options on the French side. Rotterdam?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Two destinations spring to mind. Daventry for the Midlands hubs and Irish Sea ports for a potential easy and quick non-UK transfer.

Any thoughts on potential options on the French side. Rotterdam?

What traffic from Ireland though?

 

[edwin_m]

What traffic from Ireland though?

A "landbridge" to Ireland was talked about a few years ago using conventional wagons between Holyhead and some destination on the Continent, possibly with a stop at somewhere like Daventry. Containers would be transferred to road trailers for the ferry crossing, as there's not much point in having a train ferry due to the difference in track gauge. Brexit has probably killed this idea.

 

[Bald Rick]

Leaving aside the fantastic cost of building a Channel Tunnel gauge railway through Kent, there is then the problem of “de-concentrating” service provision, and the fares charged.

One of the benefits of the Shuttle is the relatively high frequency, typically 4-5 shuttles an hour for each of the passenger shuttles and lorry shuttles. If you arrive early, or a little late for your booked shuttle, you will usually be offered the chance of the ‘next available’, which keeps waiting time to a minimum. At a guess, at least 95% of the traffic is on the M20 to/from Maidstone, but beyond there it starts to fan out rapidly. Even if we assume that the remaining traffic is split roughly three ways between M25 west, M25 north, and other destinations in London and the south east, you are straight away down to one, perhaps two services an hour from wherever the terminals might be. This is much less attractive, and causes additional waiting time. It also means building expensive new terminals and loop tracks (and they are BIG) for relatively few trains, and also then means the Folkestone terminal would see very little use.

Next, fares. Eurotunnel charges the market rate, which is pretty high for 30 miles, simply because it is the quickest way across the channel, and the only competition is a boat that takes at least twice as long, and costs about the same. The competitor for an inland version will be the motorway. For a typical family car, boarding at a terminal by the M1/M25 interchange (say) might save about £20 of fuel, and perhaps 20 minutes, compared to driving the 100 miles. But you could expect a single ticket to be well over £100, probably twice that, so who is going to do that? Especially for a - perhaps - hourly service.

I‘m afraid it simply doesn’t remotely stack up.

It’s instructive to note that even though HS1 could take standard HGV trailers (unaccompanied) on widely available wagons, no one has yet tried to run such a service from the continent to, say, Barking. And that railway exists!

 

[furnessvale]

Shock horror suggestion from me. How about removing the tractor and driver from each HGV, saving money, remove the road wheels from the trailer and call it a swap body, saving money and incidentally reducing overall height so that £billions do not need to be spent on larger lines, saving money.

Nah! It will never catch on.

 

[Lucan]

We should de-incentivise sending freight by road and get more onto rail instead. Lorry transport is massively subsidised by private motorists and others.

 

[TheSeeker]

Do EuroTunnel offer an unattended trailer service? Taking the Zeebrugge-Hull ferry there were a lot of trailers loaded and unloaded using the port tractors. Pre-covide I used the chunnel three or four times a year to visit family in the UK. I'd pay good money if it went all the way to Cardiff

 

[tomuk]

As it currently stands the only practical place on the UK side would be near Purfleet on the CTRL. You could build a terminal with access to M25/A13 junction Essex side of the Dartford crossing.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do EuroTunnel offer an unattended trailer service? Taking the Zeebrugge-Hull ferry there were a lot of trailers loaded and unloaded using the port tractors. Pre-covide I used the chunnel three or four times a year to visit family in the UK. I'd pay good money if it went all the way to Cardiff

yes, they have recently started it. The U.K. side terminal is near Ashford. Not sure how it works on the shuttles though, I assume the tractor units stay with the wagon, otherwise the loading / unloading would take forever.

 

[furnessvale]

yes, they have recently started it. The U.K. side terminal is near Ashford. Not sure how it works on the shuttles though, I assume the tractor units stay with the wagon, otherwise the loading / unloading would take forever.

Yes, I may have mentioned elsewhere that the pricing of this service will be interesting. If they manage to undercut the per swap body price they currently charge FOCs for through trains, despite having to provide tractors, drivers etc, I should imagine the FOCs have a good case for abuse of monopoly with regard to Getlink pricing.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, I may have mentioned elsewhere that the pricing of this service will be interesting. If they manage to undercut the per swap body price they currently charge FOCs for through trains, despite having to provide tractors, drivers etc, I should imagine the FOCs have a good case for abuse of monopoly with regard to Getlink pricing.

I'm not so sure, I think it would simply be a demonstration of the benefits of economies of scale.

 

[furnessvale]

I'm not so sure, I think it would simply be a demonstration of the benefits of economies of scale.

Given that Getlink manage to charge FOCs more per unit on a through railfreight train, then they charge per unit on a freight shuttle when all they have to provide for railfreight is a path and traction current, compared to the terminals, staff, trains etc for shuttles, you will be unsurprised that I disagree with you.