Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

[Nick Ashwell]

The 231s won't, IMO, be 231s for long. Slightly into the realms of speculation but if the tunnel diversion route via Gloucester, or from Cardiff to Maesteg, is electrified then we will see them converted into bi or tri mode units

 

[Wyrleybart]

The 231s won't, IMO, be 231s for long. Slightly into the realms of speculation but if the tunnel diversion route via Gloucester, or from Cardiff to Maesteg, is electrified then we will see them converted into bi or tri mode units

You would like to think that, but there is a helluva lot of wonga involved in that. for a start, how much 25kV kit is fitted to the 231s at build stage ? If you chose to upgrade a 231 into a 756, where would it be done ? I guess Taffs Well would be too busy ,maintaining it's own tram trains. Maybe the Stadler depots on Merseyside ? Doubtful. I guess the TfW 231s would have to go to Poland or Switzerland to have the work done. Probably easier and cheaper to buy new off the factory floor, and cascade the 231s to another route.

 

[AlexNL]

My guess is that it'll be similar to the DC only Electrostars: all the space reservation is there but rather than the equipment being installed, there's either nothing or a lump of concrete.

 

[Energy]

I guess the TfW 231s would have to go to Poland or Switzerland to have the work done. Probably easier and cheaper to buy new off the factory floor, and cascade the 231s to another route.

I'd be suprised if the 231s were substantially different than the 756s. I also heavily doubt that buying brand new 756s and cascade would be cheaper than retrofitting the 231s with the required equipment, even if they have to go all the way to Switzerland.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I'd be suprised if the 231s were substantially different than the 756s. I also heavily doubt that buying brand new 756s and cascade would be cheaper than retrofitting the 231s with the required equipment, even if they have to go all the way to Switzerland.

As Alex above suggested, probably empty spaces for the lumps of equipment, but what about all the copper traction cabling ? I am sure some of it is there for the elleccy from the generator "shed" to the traction motors, but I am assuming Stadler didn't install the 25kV cabling so you would need a licensed workshop to carry that retro installation out.

Not suggesting it is impossible at all because it would theoretically be easier than hanging rafts under the class 319 cars, but you would need

a) Someone to pay for the alterations
b) a licensed premises to do the work
c) cover for the units while they were out of commission

 

[CardiffKid]

Except they could run them for over 20 miles under the existing wires between Cardiff and STJ en route to Cheltenham. The WAG make lots of noise about "climate emergency" and then buy diesel-only trains for a route that already has 20+ miles of electrification. The "Core Valley Lines" electrification will not be ready when the FLIRTs enter service, so why not use the electric-capable ones more wisely?

Well said!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

231 002 and 231 004 both out testing this afternoon. Saw the former at Cardiff and the latter at Newport just under an hour apart.

 

[Bob Price]

I wonder when the next units will be delivered? Apparently 001 and 003 are being tested but I am sure there must be others on the way.

 

[387star]

Drove past a few flirts on test today around Newport

 

[Austriantrain]

I wonder when the next units will be delivered? Apparently 001 and 003 are being tested but I am sure there must be others on the way.

001 and 003 have been reported in Bernhardsthal, Austria, on the border to the Czech Republic. They have apparently been there for several days and have been „red-flagged“‘(„do not move“-notice).

 

[Peter Sarf]

001 and 003 have been reported in Bernhardsthal, Austria, on the border to the Czech Republic. They have apparently been there for several days and have been „red-flagged“‘(„do not move“-notice).

Are these 231s or 756s ?. I suppose they are flagged as "do not move" so as to avoid them being shunted around. They might have chocks under the wheels or just being worked on.

 

[Austriantrain]

Are these 231s or 756s ?. I suppose they are flagged as "do not move" so as to avoid them being shunted around. They might have chocks under the wheels or just being worked on.

Reported as 231.

 

[TRAX]

Would it be time to have two separate topics for the 231s and the 756s ?

 

[Austriantrain]

001 and 003 have been reported in Bernhardsthal, Austria, on the border to the Czech Republic. They have apparently been there for several days and have been „red-flagged“‘(„do not move“-notice).

Both 231 were sighted yesterday on the Arlberg line hauled by an ex-DB 111 loco running westwards.

There are pictures on an Austrian forum, unfortunately a registration is needed.

 

[Bob Price]

Speculation these are due to Cardiff soon. Does anyone have any details?

 

[AlexNL]

I saw a picture of 231001 and another 231 (I thought it was 005, but it could as well be 003, the text was a bit blurry) near Basel yesterday.

And today I saw a picture of 756001 at Hegyeshalom.

 

[Buzz68]

Looks like the first TfW 756 has made an appearance in Hungary. Presumably in the commissioning process of vehicle technical tests and authority checks on the Gyor-Hegyeshalom line. I wonder when we’ll see the first one in Wales. They look so similar to the 231’s
Photo courtesy of an Andi Rauter

 

[Caaardiff]

Looks like the first TfW 756 has made an appearance in Hungary. Presumably in the commissioning process of vehicle technical tests and authority checks on the Gyor-Hegyeshalom line. I wonder when we’ll see the first one in Wales. They look so similar to the 231’s
Photo courtesy of an Andi Rauter
View attachment 112723

When are the wires going to be built on the Rhymney line? Surely the 756s can't enter service until then, and there's been no sign of works anywhere near starting to electrify that side.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

When are the wires going to be built on the Rhymney line? Surely the 756s can't enter service until then, and there's been no sign of works anywhere near starting to electrify that side.

That's going to depend on fuel tank size. If they have the same tanks as the 231 then no issue at all

 

[CardiffKid]

Deleted

 

[AdamWW]

That's going to depend on fuel tank size. If they have the same tanks as the 231 then no issue at all

According to an article in Modern Railways, the 756's don't seem to have the fuel capacity to run on the Rhymney line without electrification:

Sandro Muster, Stadler’s Project Manager, confirmed at the unveiling event that the Class 756s would not be able to operate daily services on the Rhymney line using their diesel engines pending completion of electrification.

TfW is considering deploying ‘231s’ initially on the Rhymney line, where Class 769s – converted Class 319 EMUs – have still not reached their required availability. Driver training is due to commence on Class 231s in August, with service entry later in the year. The units are identical to the ‘756s’ in many respects, and training Rhymney valley crews on Class 231s would prepare for the tri-mode units’ subsequent introduction.

I'm guessing the "daily" bit means that they could run a few trips but not carry on all day....though presumably it wouldn't be impossible to pop into Canton during the day to refuel.

 

[CardiffKid]

That's going to depend on fuel tank size. If they have the same tanks as the 231 then no issue at all

Haven’t the WG stated that no diesel will be used in the Core Valleys?

 

[AdamWW]

Haven’t the WG stated that no diesel will be used in the Core Valleys?

I don't seem why temporarily running FLIRTs on diesel instead of 769s would be any worse than carrying on with the 769s.

If they were proposing to abandon electrification of the Rhymney line and continue with diesel use long term that would be different.

 

[anthony263]

231001 and 231003 are due to arrive at canton next week

 

[Rhydgaled]

today I saw a picture of 756001 at Hegyeshalom.

Looks like the first TfW 756 has made an appearance in Hungary. Presumably in the commissioning process of vehicle technical tests and authority checks on the Gyor-Hegyeshalom line.

Interesting; for some reason I thought they were going to build all the 231s before starting on the 756s.

When are the wires going to be built on the Rhymney line? Surely the 756s can't enter service until then, and there's been no sign of works anywhere near starting to electrify that side.

Ah yes, that was it; that was the reason. Can't make use of the 756s without a semi-electrified route.

I guess it kind of makes sense to get one or two pre-series 756s out on test to pick up any issues specific to the class so they can be ironed out prior to building the rest. Or are most of the 231s nearing completion anyway?

I wonder when we’ll see the first one in Wales. They look so similar to the 231’s

Some of the renders show an extra set of doors on each side of a 4-car 756 compared to the 231s, which if correct might make them look a little less similar.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Interesting; for some reason I thought they were going to build all the 231s before starting on the 756s.Ah yes, that was it; that was the reason. Can't make use of the 756s without a semi-electrified route.

I guess it kind of makes sense to get one or two pre-series 756s out on test to pick up any issues specific to the class so they can be ironed out prior to building the rest. Or are most of the 231s nearing completion anyway?

Some of the renders show an extra set of doors on each side of a 4-car 756 compared to the 231s, which if correct might make them look a little less similar.

Surely the ready made data is available from the GA 755s ? Surprised Stadler haven't "hired" one from GA and sent it over for TfW to have a look see. A couple of trips up to Rhymney would dispel any rumours. How well does a 755 run on a tank of fuel a day ?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Surely the ready made data is available from the GA 755s ? Surprised Stadler haven't "hired" one from GA and sent it over for TfW to have a look see.

Despite the many similarities, there are still some obvious differences (and possibly some more-minor ones) between 755s and 756s. As far as I'm aware (and I have zero insider knowledge, so could be wrong) the 756s have three power modes (diesel, battery and 25kv electric) whereas 755s only have two (diesel and 25kv electric). The control system will presumably therefore have to be a little bit different so a potential for 'bugs' that aren't present in the 755 design.

 

[St. Paddy]

Interesting; for some reason I thought they were going to build all the 231s before starting on the 756s.

Maybe they have!

 

[AlexNL]

Having one or two 756s out earlier than the others does give the benefit of sending them to Wales earlier for trial runs, so that any potential modifications can be done while the others are still at the factory.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 12/04 0256 Ripple Lane Exch - Canton
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K38000/2022-04-12/detailed