GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[Geeves]

On behalf of Northern we absolutely don't want any more 769s. GWR are welcome to increase their fleet with ours, good luck. You'll need it.

 

[507020]

If GWR does not want them, I should think Northern could use at least three more 769s. That would enable all 9 Southport diagrams to be worked by 769s and free up six 2-car 150s to strengthen other Northern services.

Allerton now has years of experience in maintenance of the Northern 319/769 fleet.

That certainly makes a lot of sense unless it breaches the local ASLEF agreement for working the 769s of course.

On behalf of Northern we absolutely don't want any more 769s. GWR are welcome to increase their fleet with ours, good luck. You'll need it.

Northern could do with a few more 769s, certainly the 769/4s from TfW at least, given their low availability and to make them less of a micro fleet when the 319s go, but it’s a very good thing that not all Southport diagrams are 769s. If there are any problems with the 769s the Sprinter diagrams are the only ones which run reliably. The 156s also have a much better interior with a bike space, table seats and USB chargers, which is much more suitable for the route. With more of these arriving from EMR and 150s and 158s soon to become available from TfW there will be ample 2 car DMUs to strengthen many Northern and GWR services. The purpose of the 769s is to prevent Diesel running under the wires on routes with a relatively large amount of electrification, for which they are otherwise unsuitable.

 

[FenMan]

So, to summarise where we are.

1) 769s are in service with TfW and Northern, with improving, but not great, reliability following a dismal record of multiple failures when they were first introduced into service.

2) Several years late, GWR's order has now been fulfilled (in terms of delivery of units ordered).

3) No agreement was struck before the event between ASLEF and GWR about the cab environment being suitable for their members to drive these trains. Lots of moves of units to and from the Reading depot tells me ASLEF's position is being taken seriously. The costs of fitting after-thought solutions could be considerable. Which begs a key question, did no one think to get ASLEF involved much earlier in the process? Or are ASLEF being bloody-minded?

4) Many other moves to and fro from Reading to various facilities appear to relate to sorting out the firmware so these units will be reliable when finally introduced into revenue-earning service (this bit could be forum wibble - is there any evidence any party has admitted there is a problem here?).

5) Meanwhile, Network Rail fouled-up at Shalford Junction by mis-measuring the clearances from existing infrastructure. Now fixed, so we are told.

6) Most of the recent scheduled test runs up and down the NDL have been binned. The reliability of the runs that have taken place has been less than great, with a few too many stopping short and, in at least one case, resulting in a unit having an extended stay in the sidings at Guildford.

Hmm ... I'm just a user of the line that wants to see trains turn up and, reasonably comfortably, deliver me to my destination as scheduled. The 16xs do the job just fine. I also get it the 16xs are earmarked to go west, but, there are so many buts.

 

[Andypandy1968]

Noting that yet again the STP North Downs test service from Reading to Gatwick has again be cancelled today. Haven't checked detail but I don't recall it running in last few weeks. Is GWR quietly giving up on the 769's?

Unofficially, they gave up on them some time ago.

 

[Towers]

Unofficially, they gave up on them some time ago.

I'm not sure they did, in all honesty? They're is still an intention that they'll enter service, albeit later than planned, and rather cruicially there seems little in the way of any sort of 'Plan B' available if they don't?

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm not sure they did, in all honesty? They're is still an intention that they'll enter service, albeit later than planned, and rather cruicially there seems little in the way of any sort of 'Plan B' available if they don't?

Plan B is keep the 165s at Reading....

 

[Wyrleybart]

Replying to "Fenman"s post specifically item 1

Northern do seem to be achieving improvements with their class 769 fleet

TfW on the other hand seem to plateau at 3 or 4 out of the fleet of 9 most days. Admittedly there are only 8 at Cardiff but I saw a mention somewhere the other day that another vehicle has been nominate for set 769426 (I think) to replace the "bent" one.

Now it might be that TfW can only diagram four of the nine to service the current "covid" timetable, but many of the Rhymney line trains recently appear to be either single 2 car 150s or a pair of 153s. so is it the expectation that a 2 car DMU is acceptable as a replacement for a 4 car 769 ?

How does fuel consumption compare between a 2 car 150 and a class 769 I wonder.

From what I read if the GWR 769s, the theory is great - using 750V DC where the trains can use it has to be better than diesel, but not if the service suffers a landslide. I would not be at all surprised to see the GWR flex project binned, with the units perhaps placed with another operator needing DMUs and possibly able to use 25Kv.

 

[Towers]

From what I read if the GWR 769s, the theory is great - using 750V DC where the trains can use it has to be better than diesel, but not if the service suffers a landslide. I would not be at all surprised to see the GWR flex project binned, with the units perhaps placed with another operator needing DMUs and possibly able to use 25Kv.

Given the 769 story so far it's difficult to envisage another TOC wanting to start their own journey with them, I would think?

 

[infobleep]

Plan B is keep the 165s at Reading....

Does this plan B include running a second train to Gatwick Airport instead of Redhill?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The shocking reliability of the Northern and TfW sets has been communicated by NR to the DfT, this being done at a very senior level in both organisations. GWR is still being mandated, at the moment, by the DfT to get them into service but, as the extent of extra services in the west is not going to be as previously assumed, the urgent need for the full 3 car Turbo cascade west is rapidly diminishing.

The local ASLEF don’t really want them at all and the cab work was always going to be done in DA3, as the DfT wouldn’t pay for anything extra in the initial DA2 authorisation. Considering the units were meant to be in service to allow the 387 sets to go away for conversion for HeX and more cl.150 sets to go to Northern to replace pacers (it was all that long ago!) it’s now a project whose time and purpose seems to have gone.

The only real reason now to get them all in service is to cascade Turbos to release cl.158 for full HST replacement but by the time the latter start to run out of shopping life, there will be other, cheaper, options available.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The only real reason now to get them all in service is to cascade Turbos to release cl.158 for full HST replacement but by the time the latter start to run out of shopping life, there will be other, cheaper, options available.

They ran out of shopping life five years ago.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the current situation re GWR Class 319 / 769.

Ii anyone wants to discuss anything else such as speculation re the transfer of the GWR examples to Northern or anything else speculative then please feel free to start a new thread in the speculative discussion section of the forum.

thanks

 

[DownFast]

Unofficially, they gave up on them some time ago.

No they haven't.

 

[Wyrleybart]

No they haven't.

I think he said unofficially.
If it was official the 769s would have been dragged back to Long Marston for storage, but someone is going to have to break the news at some point.

 

[DownFast]

So, to summarise where we are.

1) 769s are in service with TfW and Northern, with improving, but not great, reliability following a dismal record of multiple failures when they were first introduced into service.

2) Several years late, GWR's order has now been fulfilled (in terms of delivery of units ordered).

3) No agreement was struck before the event between ASLEF and GWR about the cab environment being suitable for their members to drive these trains. Lots of moves of units to and from the Reading depot tells me ASLEF's position is being taken seriously. The costs of fitting after-thought solutions could be considerable. Which begs a key question, did no one think to get ASLEF involved much earlier in the process? Or are ASLEF being bloody-minded?

4) Many other moves to and fro from Reading to various facilities appear to relate to sorting out the firmware so these units will be reliable when finally introduced into revenue-earning service (this bit could be forum wibble - is there any evidence any party has admitted there is a problem here?).

5) Meanwhile, Network Rail fouled-up at Shalford Junction by mis-measuring the clearances from existing infrastructure. Now fixed, so we are told.

6) Most of the recent scheduled test runs up and down the NDL have been binned. The reliability of the runs that have taken place has been less than great, with a few too many stopping short and, in at least one case, resulting in a unit having an extended stay in the sidings at Guildford.

Hmm ... I'm just a user of the line that wants to see trains turn up and, reasonably comfortably, deliver me to my destination as scheduled. The 16xs do the job just fine. I also get it the 16xs are earmarked to go west, but, there are so many buts.

Point 3: Given that 769s had been accepted by ASLEF for TfW and Northern, I don't think anyone anticipated there would be so much resistance locally. But the issues are being worked through.

Point 4: The moves to and from Reading to Eastleigh are primarily for modifications to try and bring them up to a more modern spec (e.g. cab air con, ASDO system). There are other issues related to reliability (some of which are related to firmware, such as the modems that allow the engine management systems to talk to each other on units in multiple) but the majority of these are being addressed on Reading TCD.

Point 6: There have been a number of failures on mileage accumulation recently, true. But a significant number of runs have been cancelled because there has been no-one available to drive the train. It's worth remembering too that the delivery of units has been going on for some time, with the latest unit often being the one sent out on the mileage accumulation run, after its acceptance exam at Reading. It's often the first time the unit will have been driven in anger on the main line for some time (years in some cases), so seeing a number of faults is not unexpected. What's been happening is that Reading TCD have been working on resolving the faults, getting the units into a more reliable state, at which point they get sent up to Long Marston for storage. Then the next unit gets delivered and the process starts all over again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2022 ==

I think he said unofficially.
If it was official the 769s would have been dragged back to Long Marston for storage, but someone is going to have to break the news at some point.

Unofficially or officially, whichever way you want to look at it, GWR has not given up on 769s.

 

[Deepgreen]

Today's booked runs on the NDL have failed to happen (according to RTT anyway), yet again. If GWR haven't given up on them, they are doing a very good impression of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2022 ==

Replying to "Fenman"s post specifically item 1

Northern do seem to be achieving improvements with their class 769 fleet

TfW on the other hand seem to plateau at 3 or 4 out of the fleet of 9 most days. Admittedly there are only 8 at Cardiff but I saw a mention somewhere the other day that another vehicle has been nominate for set 769426 (I think) to replace the "bent" one.

Now it might be that TfW can only diagram four of the nine to service the current "covid" timetable, but many of the Rhymney line trains recently appear to be either single 2 car 150s or a pair of 153s. so is it the expectation that a 2 car DMU is acceptable as a replacement for a 4 car 769 ?

How does fuel consumption compare between a 2 car 150 and a class 769 I wonder.

From what I read if the GWR 769s, the theory is great - using 750V DC where the trains can use it has to be better than diesel, but not if the service suffers a landslide. I would not be at all surprised to see the GWR flex project binned, with the units perhaps placed with another operator needing DMUs and possibly able to use 25Kv.

Isn't the problem mainly with the 'D' bit of the 'MU' though? The electric side of things is (I thought) fairly OK. I can't imagine any DMU operator wanting under-powered and chronically-unreliable diesels.

 

[DownFast]

Today's booked runs on the NDL have failed to happen (according to RTT anyway), yet again. If GWR haven't given up on them, they are doing a very good impression of it.

Because there is no-one available to drive it. It's as simple as that.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Point 3: Given that 769s had been accepted by ASLEF for TfW and Northern, I don't think anyone anticipated there would be so much resistance locally. But the issues are being worked through.

Point 4: The moves to and from Reading to Eastleigh are primarily for modifications to try and bring them up to a more modern spec (e.g. cab air con, ASDO system). There are other issues related to reliability (some of which are related to firmware, such as the modems that allow the engine management systems to talk to each other on units in multiple) but the majority of these are being addressed on Reading TCD.

Point 6: There have been a number of failures on mileage accumulation recently, true. But a significant number of runs have been cancelled because there has been no-one available to drive the train. It's worth remembering too that the delivery of units has been going on for some time, with the latest unit often being the one sent out on the mileage accumulation run, after its acceptance exam at Reading. It's often the first time the unit will have been driven in anger on the main line for some time (years in some cases), so seeing a number of faults is not unexpected. What's been happening is that Reading TCD have been working on resolving the faults, getting the units into a more reliable state, at which point they get sent up to Long Marston for storage. Then the next unit gets delivered and the process starts all over again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2022 ==


Unofficially or officially, whichever way you want to look at it, GWR has not given up on 769s.

Maybe if ROG had driven them from Wabtec or Nemesis on a test run around Leics, Derbys and Notts, the problems may well have manifested themselves Before being dumped on the staff at Reading to sort out. Surely towing a diesel self powered train around with a diesel loco is counter productive

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2022 ==

Today's booked runs on the NDL have failed to happen (according to RTT anyway), yet again. If GWR haven't given up on them, they are doing a very good impression of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2022 ==


Isn't the problem mainly with the 'D' bit of the 'MU' though? The electric side of things is (I thought) fairly OK. I can't imagine any DMU operator wanting under-powered and chronically-unreliable diesels.

There are reports of Northern and GWR examples suffering traction motor issues, some requiring replacement. Not sure whether they were overhauled when the units were having the diesel rafts added, or whether they just expected the near 30 year old motors to be reliable after storage in Long Marston.

Pardon my scepticism

 

[DownFast]

Maybe if ROG had driven them from Wabtec or Nemesis on a test run around Leics, Derbys and Notts, the problems may well have manifested themselves Before being dumped on the staff at Reading to sort out. Surely towing a diesel self powered train around with a diesel loco is counter productive

That's not as easy as you make it sound: there would have to be a whole load of work on gauge clearance, electromagnetic compatibility testing etc. to enable a statement of compatibility (SoC) to be produced before the trains could run under their own power on NR infrastructure. All that work has (largely) been completed for 769s on the Western & Wessex routes, so it probably makes more sense to do test running there, as is happening now.

 

[geoffk]

Plan B is keep the 165s at Reading....

which probably means more short-formed trains in Devon unless some of the TfW 150s are coming our way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2022 ==

These aren't test runs, there's nothing to test. They're for the driver managers / trainers to accumulate their hours. if it wasn't for them the units would just be sat round gathering dust at the various locations.

I thought they were actual crew training runs. So has that not even started yet?

 

[FGW_DID]

I thought they were actual crew training runs. So has that not even started yet?

No Drivers as of yet but I think there has been some Guard training done on some of these runs.

 

[Bikeman78]

which probably means more short-formed trains in Devon unless some of the TfW 150s are coming our way.

Recent discussion on this thread has suggested that the new aim is to bin the HSTs, presumably replacing with sweaty non air con single class 158s from Cardiff to Penzance. Meanwhile Reading to Gatwick passengers will see reliability plummet. I'm no fan of the 165s; I've never liked them but at least normally make it through the day without failing. Difficult to see who wins with the proposed cascade.

 

[RPI]

Recent discussion on this thread has suggested that the new aim is to bin the HSTs, presumably replacing with sweaty non air con single class 158s from Cardiff to Penzance. Meanwhile Reading to Gatwick passengers will see reliability plummet. I'm no fan of the 165s; I've never liked them but at least normally make it through the day without failing. Difficult to see who wins with the proposed cascade.

Non aircon 158's? Obviously all 158's have aircon fitted but the GWR ones are also pretty reliable, its the 166's that seem to suffer terribly with knackered aircon

 

[Bikeman78]

Non aircon 158's? Obviously all 158's have aircon fitted but the GWR ones are also pretty reliable, its the 166's that seem to suffer terribly with knackered aircon

I respectfully disagree about 158s. It's normal to see the windows open on GWR 158s in summer. Admittedly I haven't done an audit to compare the failure rate compared with other TOCs but they're still not great. And yes I agree about the 166s.

 

[warwickshire]

More back on topic wonder what the air con will be like on the gwr 769 when they finally do enter service.

 

[JonathanH]

More back on topic wonder what the air con will be like on the gwr 769 when they finally do enter service.

It was indicated to be air cooling like the 165s, not full air conditioning.

 

[RPI]

I respectfully disagree about 158s. It's normal to see the windows open on GWR 158s in summer. Admittedly I haven't done an audit to compare the failure rate compared with other TOCs but they're still not great. And yes I agree about the 166s.

I work on them every day and they're certainly a lot better than they were, the windows being open is usually guards who can't seem to grasp how aircon works and open them up at the slightest sign of it getting warm, rather than waiting for the aircon to actually do its thing.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Found a crew today run 1 completed run 2 under way.

RTT gets confused as the train comes back over the same timing points so it looks like its late but it isn't.

 

[Bob Price]

Looking at the rail time there have been four runs today all on time. All run by Colas.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Looking at the rail time there have been four runs today all on time. All run by Colas.

769930 did the honours saw it on diesel near Betchworth surprising how quiet it was on diesel