Undesirably long intermediate dwell times

[Javelin_55]

The current Sunday timetable sees Cambridge-Brighton services have a 6 min dwell at Royston. Their slot in the timetable is such that the next service right behind them has to loop (slowly) through the adjacent platform and then in front. This often means the 6 min stoppage is more like 7 or 8.

 

[Marton]

Which trains overtake it between Middlesbrough and London and does it change from diesel to electric on the move?

The Berwick to KX overtakes between Longlands Junction and Thirsk. When I was on it that was at Thirsk station.

The Grand central from Sunderland on Stoke Bank

It didn’t stop at Longlands J to change to electric, just very slow. It uses the bypass low level line not the high level junction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2022 ==

At Nunthorpe the 1816 Battersby to Metrocentre arrives at 1759. It waits to cross the Hexham Whitby train which often seems delayed making a longer lay over.

 

[BluePenguin]

Sitting at Dover Priory on an Electrostar which connects with the terminating Javelin. I wish they simply extended it to Ramsgate for our convenience, although know the train makes a return working back to St Pancras.

Sometimes the dwell is useful when making the connection myself. However 10 minutes is a long long time when it is late, you are a few stops from home and feel shattered


Similarly waiting at Northampton for 15 minutes is very annoying when travelling to Birmingham on the cheap.

It both examples the dwell time makes an already slow journey much slower

 

[TheBigD]

The new Middlesbrough to Kings Cross sits in York from 0806 to 0813, but actually from about 0801.

The announcement was “if you have an open ticket wait on the platform for the next train at 0822. It arrives before this one”.

Add to that 5 minutes at the platform in Thirsk (not a stop) and a meander from Stoke to Peterborough on the slow line makes me wonder if it’s set to fail.

If driving to the station quicker to use Darlington instead andthe 0730. Not only in London earlier but plenty more trains home.

Like a number of other ECML services, it has been added to the existing timetable and has to fit in to the gaps that are available. Until the ECML timetable is rewritten (deferred from May 2022) it will probably remain as is.

On a similar theme, Sundays 1335 Kings Cross to Leeds LNER service gets overtaken at Grantham and again at Retford. This service having been added a few years after the Eureka timetable was introduced.

 

[Essexal]

The 05:14 from DBL>EDB has a 21 min dwell at Stirling, but I would imagine thats so it can connect up with the 05:26 LNER from STG>KGX

Note the above is only on a Mon-Fri, as the above LNER service doesn’t run on weekends (starts at EDB) and the first train from DBL on a Saturday is 05:32

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Holyhead to Cardiff services sit at Chester for what seems like forever, I think it is about 6 minutes.

A lot of the Blaenau Ffestiniog services have a wait at Llandudno Junction of up to 6 minute also which can be frustrating.

 

[Watershed]

Holyhead to Cardiff services sit at Chester for what seems like forever, I think it is about 6 minutes.

A lot of the Blaenau Ffestiniog services have a wait at Llandudno Junction of up to 6 minute also which can be frustrating.

Hardly forever, considering they have to reverse there.

 

[The Planner]

Holyhead to Cardiff services sit at Chester for what seems like forever, I think it is about 6 minutes.

A lot of the Blaenau Ffestiniog services have a wait at Llandudno Junction of up to 6 minute also which can be frustrating.

Standard allowance for a reversal is 4 minutes anyway.

 

[seagull]

I'd venture to suggest that anything up to, say, 10 minutes as an occasional planned dwell time on a longer journey is probably not at all undesirable but rather helpful, building resilience in to allow for a number of things that can cause a train to lose a handful of minutes. I've noticed it to be quite a common occurrence in parts of Europe, even in countries with relatively short "long" journeys like the Netherlands and Belgium. Oftentimes the dwell is shorter (3-5 minutes) but more frequent.
Certainly here it seems tough to fulfil a station stop with bicycles, wheelchairs and luggage-wielding reservation-holders, plus dispatch with the endless hustle alarms, in the apparently standard 1-2 minutes

 

[james_the_xv]

The Avanti journeys from Euston to Blackpool/Glasgow via BHM have a 7 minute lull at Birmingham. Although back in Virgin days when those paths were alternating Glasgow and Edinburgh I remember the lull being more like 15 mins.

 

[LordCreed]

The 16:42 Birmingham New Street to Plymouth service has a 39 minute wait at Bristol Temple Meads:

Realtime Trains | 1642 Birmingham New Street to Plymouth | 23/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 1642 departure from Birmingham New Street to Plymouth on 23/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The 08:51 Redhill to Reading service has a 20 minute wait at Guildford. In previous timetables this used to be 10 minutes at Shalford and 10 at Guildford:

Realtime Trains | 0851 Redhill to Reading | 23/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 0851 departure from Redhill to Reading on 23/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Dai Corner]

The 16:42 Birmingham New Street to Plymouth service has a 39 minute wait at Bristol Temple Meads:

While it's stood there, the 1337 ex-Newcastle terminates at 1833.

Presumably it's something to do with stock diagramming and getting the Newcastle to Barton Hill depot for servicing?

 

[geoffk]

Some of the Exmouth to Paignton trains have quite lengthy waits at Dawlish Warren in the evening, making use of the four track layout there that permits overtaking.

For example the 17.25 Exmouth - Paignton is booked 15 minutes at the Warren; the 17.54 Exmouth has 10 minutes; & the 20.24 from Exmouth has a massive 13 minutes! Not quite long enough to walk to Dawlish along the sea wall instead.

The 11.23 from Exmouth has a 6-minute stand at Central, 10 minutes at St. Davids (including reversal and crew change) and 6 at Dawlish Warren to allow an overtaking movement. Some arrivals at Paignton are less than 15 minutes apart after leaving Exmouth half an hour apart. Analysis shows the main reason is the uneven arrival times at St. Davids from Paddington and the few IC services to Paignton which prevent a half hourly clock face timetable for the local service. I think time is already allowed for the Marsh Barton stop which might soak up some of the extra minutes.

 

[northwichcat]

The Sheffield-Scarborough services wait at Hull for anywhere between three and nine minutes.

On a route that's effectively two services joined together, it's not surprising to have a long dwell time at an intermediate station as it's quite possible there's a crew change mid-journey.

 

[Watershed]

On a route that's effectively two services joined together, it's not surprising to have a long dwell time at an intermediate station as it's quite possible there's a crew change mid-journey.

It's also a relatively long through service, which passes over a number of flat junctions (including the ECML at Doncaster) and single line sections (north of Bridlington), so it's prudent to allow slightly more than the bare minimum reversal time, by way of 'recovery time' in case of delays.

 

[Efini92]

There used to be a Clitheroe-Manchester Victoria service that departed Clitheroe 15 mins earlier than the usual time to then wait at Blackburn for 15 mins.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The 14.51 Cardiff Central to Treherbert service has a 13 minute wait at Radyr which is pretty unusual for those services (given nearly all other services have a 1-2 min dwell time at each station, if that!). The reasoning is a combination of an earlier than usual departure time from Cardiff and going around the City Line instead of the usual route but why those things happen I have no idea! There's a similar return journey too that has a 13 minute wait at Porth instead.

 

[Class800]

The 16:42 Birmingham New Street to Plymouth service has a 39 minute wait at Bristol Temple Meads:

Yes I noticed that when making a Cardiff Central to Exeter St Davids itinerary - as it means the connection can only be made at Meads not Parkway

 

[miklcct]

Winchester - Bournemouth stopping services - long wait at both Southampton Central (14 minutes) and Brockenhurst (25 minutes).

The reason is to let fast trains overtake the stopping service. At Brockenhurst it has to cross over the opposite main line to platform 1 and cross back (platform 1 is the siding to London, platform 2 is the mainline to London, platform 3 is the mainline to Bournemouth where non-overtaken train stops, and platform 4 is the siding to Bournemouth / Lymington normally occupied by the Lymington shuttle).

It's so bad that in the timetable consultation it will be dropped from December 2022 onwards and replaced by a Southampton - Bournemouth stand-alone service, avoiding the overtaking movement at Brockenhurst.

 

[childwallblues]

That's because at the moment they're running a quarter hour out of line. That is, the path they should take up between Manchester Victoria and Yorkshire isn't in place currently. It is easily remedied by the return to half-hourly departures from Liverpool Lime Street, if and when TransPennine Express have sufficient crew to do this again. The former wait of between 7 and 9 minutes on eastbound services was frustrating, but luckily that was removed in 2018.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2022 ==

That's because at the moment they're running a quarter hour out of line. That is, the path they should take up between Manchester Victoria and Yorkshire isn't in place currently. It is easily remedied by the return to half-hourly departures from Liverpool Lime Street, if and when TransPennine Express have sufficient crew to do this again. The former wait of between 7 and 9 minutes on eastbound services was frustrating, but luckily that was removed in 2018.

Dwell times at Manchester Victoria currently still average 13-14 minutes each way.

 

[Taunton]

Back in time a bit, but up to the 1970s/80s there were summer Friday night services from the North to Devon/Cornwall, which deliberately were given 20/30 minute stops at Bristol TM, where refreshment trolleys would be in place on the platform (at 3am - and in theory; I never saw it), toilets adjacent, people could step out for a smoke, etc. This was shown in the timetable as such. I suspect it was the last ever booked refreshment stop on a timetable service.

 

[Starmill]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2022 ==


Dwell times at Manchester Victoria currently still average 13-14 minutes each way.

Is that not what I said? The reason it's not exactly 15 minutes is because of the extra stop between Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[Class800]

Back in time a bit, but up to the 1970s/80s there were summer Friday night services from the North to Devon/Cornwall, which deliberately were given 20/30 minute stops at Bristol TM, where refreshment trolleys would be in place on the platform (at 3am - and in theory; I never saw it), toilets adjacent, people could step out for a smoke, etc. This was shown in the timetable as such. I suspect it was the last ever booked refreshment stop on a timetable service.

My memory is a bit hazy as I'm going back around 25 years and I was only 11 or 12 at the time, but I recall a really long stop on an intercity service possibly Preston or if not one of the other main West Coast stops - for passengers to use station facilities, as I think only one toilet was available on the whole rake of carriages and the buffet was not able to be staffed

 

[Llandudno]

Holyhead to Cardiff services sit at Chester for what seems like forever, I think it is about 6 minutes.

A lot of the Blaenau Ffestiniog services have a wait at Llandudno Junction of up to 6 minute also which can be frustrating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2022 ==

Holyhead to Cardiff services sit at Chester for what seems like forever, I think it is about 6 minutes.

A lot of the Blaenau Ffestiniog services have a wait at Llandudno Junction of up to 6 minute also which can be frustrating.

1941 Cardiff to Holyhead sits at Chester for 16 minutes and frustratingly departs for the coast at 2257 a couple of minutes before the Merseyrail train from Chester arrives..

The next, and last train to the coast departs at 0040, a few minutes before the last train from Manchester arrives at Chester!

A deliberate ploy to stop the Welsh spending money at football, theatre and concert venues in England maybe!

 

[Route115?]

The 0934 Aylesbury - Marylebone via High Wycombe stops at West Ruislip for 12 minutes (10:17 - 10:29).

 

[Dr Hoo]

The 0934 Aylesbury - Marylebone via High Wycombe stops at West Ruislip for 12 minutes (10:17 - 10:29).

(Noting that you seem to be located in Ruislip.)

Why is this 'undesirable', given that the train in question is overtaken by three fast services at minimum headways before proceeding to call at Northolt Park and the Sudburys?

Do you think that it would be better for the three longer distance services to trundle along on single yellows behind 'your' local?

 

[LordCreed]

(Noting that you seem to be located in Ruislip.)

Why is this 'undesirable', given that the train in question is overtaken by three fast services at minimum headways before proceeding to call at Northolt Park and the Sudburys?

Do you think that it would be better for the three longer distance services to trundle along on single yellows behind 'your' local?

Any long dwell is likely to be undesirable to the passengers on the service. They of course won't care about the operational need to be overtaken by faster services.

 

[ivorytoast28]

The 22:00 Kings Cross to Newcastle often would sometimes sit at York for over 30 minutes which became rather frustrating at midnight [though worth it for the cheapest fare of the day back when I was a student]. I believe it was because it was officially routed via Church Fenton presumably for driver route retention but it only sometimes took that route. This seems to have been improved in recent timetables however

 

[gimmea50anyday]

MO-SA 04:51 9M03 Newcastle-Liverpool Lime Street is not due to depart Durham until 05:18, thats a dwell time of 15 minutes if drivers run at line speed.

Sililarly the 04:45 1Y03 Newcastle - Kings Cross also has over 10 minutes dwell time at Northallerton.

The reason for this is engineering allowance in case the services run bi-directional at any point between Newcastle and Northallerton. The timing should mean the services remain on time south of York and maintain their path

 

[berneyarms]

Any long dwell is likely to be undesirable to the passengers on the service. They of course won't care about the operational need to be overtaken by faster services.

And all of those passengers can change to one of those fast services at High Wycombe which calls five minutes behind it there.

The Aylesbury train then runs non-stop to West Ruislip to be overtaken by three services and then continues as a stopper to London Marylebone.

There shouldn’t be anyone on board enduring a long wait at West Ruislip.

I would suggest that’s exceptionally good railway planning.