New stock on ayrshire coast?

[BDLhouston]

Will the 385s or any other emu's ever be put on Ayrshire coastline services? Its only the 380s currently and I'm surprised that this route is the only one with 1 emu.

 

[Huntergreed]

Will the 385s or any other emu's ever be put on Ayrshire coastline services? Its only the 380s currently and I'm surprised that this route is the only one with 1 emu.

Not for the foreseeable. Ayr drivers and conductors are only trained on the 156’s (for stranraer services) and 380’s. At the moment, there are an adequate number of units to cover the services, so it makes little sense to train crew on different stock for no real benefit.

Perhaps they’ll change stock allocation as the decarbonisation plan is rolled out, but only time will tell.

 

[Ayrshire Roy]

The coast line has always used single classes since it was electrified in the 80s, 318s, 334s and now 380s.
The only time you used to normally see anything else was when the Open golf is on.
I'm sure on occasion the other ScotRail EMUs have made an appearance but it is rare.

 

[JonathanH]

The coast line has always used single classes since it was electrified in the 80s, 318s, 334s and now 380s.
The only time you used to normally see anything else was when the Open golf is on.
I'm sure on occasion the other ScotRail EMUs have made an appearance but it is rare.

Historically I seem to recall a 303 peak working to the Ardrossan in their later days when there weren't quite enough 318s and some continued 318 use when the 334s were the main stock. There now isn't anything other than 380s bit the 380 fleet is larger than the 318 fleet. Obviously the 334s were shared across more than one route.

 

[hexagon789]

Historically I seem to recall a 303 peak working to the Ardrossan in their later days when there weren't quite enough 318s and some continued 318 use when the 334s were the main stock. There now isn't anything other than 380s bit the 380 fleet is larger than the 318 fleet. Obviously the 334s were shared across more than one route.

Yes, I think it's only really since the 380s became the prime traction that they have been the sole electric class in operation down that way.

Obviously they aren't the only class as a diesel is needed for Girvan/Stranraer but you get my drift.

Pre-electrification there was a huge variety of DMU classes, even sometimes within individual units.

On dieselisation the 126s were by far the mainstay of Ayr/Gurvan/Stranraer but 107s did appear down to Ayr occasionally though they were more associated with Ardrossan/Largs/Kilmacolm until the 126s began to get rundown and other units were drafted in.

 

[Ayrshire Roy]

Historically I seem to recall a 303 peak working to the Ardrossan in their later days when there weren't quite enough 318s and some continued 318 use when the 334s were the main stock. There now isn't anything other than 380s bit the 380 fleet is larger than the 318 fleet. Obviously the 334s were shared across more than one route.

With the problems the 334s had when new I think the swap over period was a lot longer than expected. I do remember for a good while the 318s were still running when they were ment to be finished.
I don't know much about the Largs / Ardrossan side of things as the Ayr line is where I am.

 

[hexagon789]

With the problems the 334s had when new I think the swap over period was a lot longer than expected. I do remember for a good while the 318s were still running when they were ment to be finished.
I don't know much about the Largs / Ardrossan side of things as the Ayr line is where I am.

I remember having the odd 318 to Largs a number of years after 334s took over properly. I have to say I preferred the 334s as the 318s felt a bit tired in the mid/late-2000s. Also 334s did the odd late-afternoon Cathcart just as the 380s did/do.

The only time I went to Ardrossan Harbour that was a 318 rather than 334, would've been about 2008 I think.

 

[drb61]

Having Ayr crews trained on 385s might facilitate reinstatement of direct Edinburgh - Ayr services that were withdrawn a couple of years ago.

 

[Peter0124]

Having Ayr crews trained on 385s might facilitate reinstatement of direct Edinburgh - Ayr services that were withdrawn a couple of years ago.

I feel like these services could have been sped up by making use of the terminus curve (avoiding Glasgow Central completely) though I don't think the demand is there for that. Would be a good idea for a Glasgow Crossrail to perhaps have an interchange with the subway at West Street, and have direct service from Ayrshire to Motherwell without reversal, say.

 

[Starmill]

I know you were thinking of the electrics, but for the diesel operated services it's likely that 170 training will be needed, although it may not be for another two years yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2022 ==

I feel like these services could have been sped up by making use of the terminus curve (avoiding Glasgow Central completely) though I don't think the demand is there for that. Would be a good idea for a Glasgow Crossrail to perhaps have an interchange with the subway at West Street, and have direct service from Ayrshire to Motherwell without reversal, say.

Unfortunately, I think that people would be very unhappy if their train were no longer serving Glasgow Central!

 

[Peter0124]

I know you were thinking of the electrics, but for the diesel operated services it's likely that 170 training will be needed, although it may not be for another two years yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2022 ==


Unfortunately, I think that people would be very unhappy if their train were no longer serving Glasgow Central!

Even if just one or two (additional) trains a day did it, would it work?

Eg fast from Paisley Gilmour Street to say Uddingston or Motherwell, might not want to board by mistake though!

 

[Starmill]

Even if just one or two (additional) trains a day did it, would it work?

Eg fast from Paisley Gilmour Street to say Uddingston or Motherwell, might not want to board by mistake though!

The problem would be that you would still be taking away a service at that time between Ayrshire and Glasgow. That would not be popular, people won't want to go to Motherwell instead.

 

[drb61]

I feel like these services could have been sped up by making use of the terminus curve (avoiding Glasgow Central completely) though I don't think the demand is there for that. Would be a good idea for a Glasgow Crossrail to perhaps have an interchange with the subway at West Street, and have direct service from Ayrshire to Motherwell without reversal, say.

Notwithstanding Crossrail proposals, I've always thought an interchange at West Street is a no-brainer in as a standalone option and make journeys like Ayr - Edinburgh more seamless - i.e. Train Ayr - West Street; Subway to Buchanan Street; Train from Queen Street to Waverley - this could potentially be quicker than a direct semi-fast via Carstairs.

 

[InOban]

Rather than walking 5 minutes or taking the free bus between Central and Queen Street?

 

[hexagon789]

Notwithstanding Crossrail proposals, I've always thought an interchange at West Street is a no-brainer in as a standalone option and make journeys like Ayr - Edinburgh more seamless - i.e. Train Ayr - West Street; Subway to Buchanan Street; Train from Queen Street to Waverley - this could potentially be quicker than a direct semi-fast via Carstairs.

Rather than walking 5 minutes or taking the free bus between Central and Queen Street?

I think it was always quicker to transfer Central to Queen Street and then take the 45-50 min shuttle to Waverley than stay on an Ayr-Glasgow-Carstairs-Edinburgh service. One because of the 10-15 min dwells at Central pending reversal and two because of the much longer journey time via Carstairs.

For example in the 2019 timetable:

1050 Ayr-Edinburgh
Arr GLC 1140
Dep GLC 1146
Arr EDB 1306

By transferring at Central to Queen Street and catching the 1200 you would arrive Edinburgh at 1243, 23 mins faster.

Next one 1237 Ayr-Edinburgh
Arr GLC 1339
Dep GLC 1406
Arr EDB 1526

By transferring at Queen Street to the 1400 Edinburgh you would arrive at 1442, saving 44 mins!

Ergo, always faster to change to Queen Street back then.

 

[Peter0124]

I think it was always quicker to transfer Central to Queen Street and then take the 45-50 min shuttle to Waverley than stay on an Ayr-Glasgow-Carstairs-Edinburgh service. One because of the 10-15 min dwells at Central pending reversal and two because of the much longer journey time via Carstairs.

For example in the 2019 timetable:

1050 Ayr-Edinburgh
Arr GLC 1140
Dep GLC 1146
Arr EDB 1306

By transferring at Central to Queen Street and catching the 1200 you would arrive Edinburgh at 1243, 23 mins faster.

Next one 1237 Ayr-Edinburgh
Arr GLC 1339
Dep GLC 1406
Arr EDB 1526

By transferring at Queen Street to the 1400 Edinburgh you would arrive at 1442, saving 44 mins!

Ergo, always faster to change to Queen Street back then.

How about we electrify the City Union and send them that way? To join the E&G after Springburn.

 

[hexagon789]

How about we electrify the City Union and send them that way? To join the E&G after Springburn.

But not calling at Glasgow Central would be a bit daft, by far the greater traffic flow from Ayr.

Perhaps summer only additional services as there were until the 1960s might be an idea, they could then avoid Glasgow Central because you aren't taking away the normal service pattern.

There was actually an Edinburgh-Ayr-Stranraer Sprinter via the Shotts line in the early 1990s which didn't serve Glasgow Central but that was essentially a Boat Train connection. I think it lasted about 2 years.

 

[Peter0124]

But not calling at Glasgow Central would be a bit daft, by far the greater traffic flow from Ayr.

Perhaps summer only additional services as there were until the 1960s might be an idea, they could then avoid Glasgow Central because you aren't taking away the normal service pattern.

There was actually an Edinburgh-Ayr-Stranraer Sprinter via the Shotts line in the early 1990s which didn't serve Glasgow Central but that was essentially a Boat Train connection. I think it lasted about 2 years.

See that's the problem with Glasgow I don't like, I wish it was just one big through terminus like Waverley is. Hopefully a solution is found though.

Getting a bit off-topic with the speculative ideas but would there ever be any kind of scope in the future to run Pendolinos via an electrified Maryhill line to serve Stirling/Perth(when elec) from Glasgow and beyond? Pendolinos could call at a (lengthened) Glasgow low level then use the Argyle/Maryhill lines to join onto the E&G.
Probably a daft idea as I feel like a 390 trekking suburban Glasgow would take as long as just walking to Queen St and boarding a Stirling train there.

Image: Approximate route of Lenzie to Motherwell via Maryhill and Glasgow Central Low Level.

 

[hexagon789]

See that's the problem with Glasgow I don't like, I wish it was just one big through terminus like Waverley is. Hopefully a solution is found though.

Getting a bit off-topic with the speculative ideas but would there ever be any kind of scope in the future to run Pendolinos via an electrified Maryhill line to serve Stirling/Perth(when elec) from Glasgow and beyond? Pendolinos could call at a (lengthened) Glasgow low level then use the Argyle/Maryhill lines to join onto the E&G.
Probably a daft idea as I feel like a 390 trekking suburban Glasgow would take as long as just walking to Queen St and boarding a Stirling train there.

It would perhaps be better fully electrifying the old Caledonian Main Line to Perth from Mossend throughout and simply calling at Motherwell and Coatbridge en-route perhaps. Or use bi-modes and then resurrect The Clansman to Inverness!

And yes, we are now getting OT so perhaps we'd better stop here!

 

[Starmill]

I think it was always quicker to transfer Central to Queen Street and then take the 45-50 min shuttle to Waverley than stay on an Ayr-Glasgow-Carstairs-Edinburgh service.

It definitely would have been when they were running quarter-hourly Monday - Saturday daytimes yes. But of course there's now a lot of time when they don't.

 

[hexagon789]

It definitely would have been when they were running quarter-hourly Monday - Saturday daytimes yes. But of course there's now a lot of time when they don't.

But there are no Edinburgh/Ayr through services nor a regular two-hourly Glasgow-Carstairs-Edinburgh at present either - so it's still quicker to change and go from Queen Street!

 

[drb61]

There was actually an Edinburgh-Ayr-Stranraer Sprinter via the Shotts line in the early 1990s which didn't serve Glasgow Central but that was essentially a Boat Train connection. I think it lasted about 2 years.

That would be the 06.55 from EDB, which did call at GLC (arr. 08.02, dep. 08.12, I think). Ran between May 1990 and May 1992. Called at LVG 07.14 and SHS 07.30 and if it got a clear run was sometimes a few mins early in GLC. Used it for my daily commute from Livingston during that period. Unfortunately the return working was less convenient and ran about 8pm non stop from GLC - HYM. There was also a through WHL service from EDB around the same time (06.52 off Waverley I think) which ran via FKG forming the 08.xx from GLQ to OBN & MLG). My guess is these 'convenient' through services may have been more about stock movements from the east running in passenger service as perhaps a number of the early 156 fleet were maintained at HYM?

 

[hexagon789]

That would be the 06.55 from EDB, which did call at GLC (arr. 08.02, dep. 08.12, I think). Ran between May 1990 and May 1992. Called at LVG 07.14 and SHS 07.30 and if it got a clear run was sometimes a few mins early in GLC. Used it for my daily commute from Livingston during that period. Unfortunately the return working was less convenient and ran about 8pm non stop from GLC - HYM. There was also a through WHL service from EDB around the same time (06.52 off Waverley I think) which ran via FKG forming the 08.xx from GLQ to OBN & MLG). My guess is these 'convenient' through services may have been more about stock movements from the east running in passenger service as perhaps a number of the early 156 fleet were maintained at HYM?

Apologies, for some reason I thought it omitted Glasgow Central.

I believe Haymarket did handle most of the 156 fleet outside Inverness; not sure when Corkerhill opened.

 

[InOban]

It would perhaps be better fully electrifying the old Caledonian Main Line to Perth from Mossend throughout and simply calling at Motherwell and Coatbridge en-route perhaps. Or use bi-modes and then resurrect The Clansman to Inverness!

And yes, we are now getting OT so perhaps we'd better stop here!

Surely that route is already electric as far as Dunblane.

 

[hexagon789]

Surely that route is already electric as far as Dunblane.

Oh of course, so it is. I think I was too used to 158s doing Whifflet and Motherwell-Cumbernauld but of course they've been integrated into the Argyle/North Clyde Ektrics for years now.

In which case, much simpler - just string wires up to Perth.

 

[route101]

I wouldn't be surprised to see 385s feature on the Ayshire coast services at some point, perhaps not for a while.

 

[Strathclyder]

The coast line has always used single classes since it was electrified in the 80s, 318s, 334s and now 380s.
The only time you used to normally see anything else was when the Open golf is on.
I'm sure on occasion the other ScotRail EMUs have made an appearance but it is rare.

Historically I seem to recall a 303 peak working to the Ardrossan in their later days when there weren't quite enough 318s and some continued 318 use when the 334s were the main stock. There now isn't anything other than 380s bit the 380 fleet is larger than the 318 fleet. Obviously the 334s were shared across more than one route.

In the late 90s, there indeed was a peak-hour run to/from Ardrossan Harbour that was worked by a 303 (linked Flickr image copyright of Gordon Thomson). They could also occasionally appear on other Ayrshire Coast services if nothing else was available or as extras for golf event-related traffic.

Kilwinning - 303054 - 28-08-1997

This was the only timetabled working of a class 303 into Ayrshire. The 17.35 from Glasgow Central to Ardrossan Town and the 18.33 return gave the former 'blue trains' a trip to the seaside. 303054 calls at kilwinning on its way back to Glasgow.

www.flickr.com

Going back to the First ScotRail era, 314s, and on extremely rare occasions - it may have been a one-off actually - 322s could crop up in the event of extreme weather and/or no other stock being available. Barring 385s, I think 320s are the only current member of the ScotRail EMU fleet not to have appeared on a Ayrshire Coast service, though I'm willing to be corrected on that.


(314210 calls at Barassie with the 13.30 Glasgow Central - Ayr train - 6th January 2010. Copyright of scotrail.co.uk's agcthoms)


(322484 departs Irvine with the 17:13 from Glasgow to Ayr - 21st April 2010. Copyright of scotrail.co.uk's AndrewIrvine)

 

[BDLhouston]

Im pretty sure 320s have been on the Ayrshire line when they were refurbished in 2020/21, just not on passenger duties

 

[Johnstone Bhoy]

Will the 385s or any other emu's ever be put on Ayrshire coastline services? Its only the 380s currently and I'm surprised that this route is the only one with 1 emu.

Why? Absolutely no need. The 380’s do a great job. They should standardise all routes with one fleet, maybe two if required. Look at Inverclyde for example? The 380’s could also, or maybe mostly, cover that also rather that four different units. The 318’s for example are really tired now and should be replaced here. But I’d certainly leave Ayrshire well alone. I use it frequently and enjoy every journey I make.

 

[Peter0124]

Why? Absolutely no need. The 380’s do a great job. They should standardise all routes with one fleet, maybe two if required. Look at Inverclyde for example? The 380’s could also, or maybe mostly, cover that also rather that four different units. The 318’s for example are really tired now and should be replaced here. But I’d certainly leave Ayrshire well alone. I use it frequently and enjoy every journey I make.

The 318s shouldn't be replaced just yet, they're fine!