Why aren’t 444s coupled to 450s more often?

[RailWonderer]

I understand if a 10 car 444 for one reason or another is short formed to a 5 car or an 8 car 450 runs as a 4 car when there is a last minute train fault but when some workings of a diagram are busier than others, why don’t they split and join units more often to make the most of capacity, is it because it makes diagramming more complicated?

Just wondering if anybody here is familiar with SWR/SWT operations and diagramming in general.

The 11:05 from my experience and 20:05 Weymouths from my observation are both 5 car 444s and both full and sometimes standing.

 

[DanNCL]

I'm not too familiar with the diagramming of the 444 and 450 fleets, but have been on a service worked by a 9 car mixed 444/450 formation before so they do happen sometimes.

 

[NSE]

Like any suburban TOC, I would imagine they are fairly intensively used (Covid excepted). Also, plenty of the units are possibly part of diagrams that attach and reattach to other units and that would skew everything. I.e a morning 12 car 450 arrives to Waterloo and then splits into 3 single 450’s to separate off peak services. If a 444 tacked on instead of 2x 450 units, it would totally work for the service into Waterloo but it would knacker the split after. A rough example that a railway worker could probably explain better!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I understand if a 10 car 444 for one reason or another is short formed to a 5 car or an 8 car 450 runs as a 4 car when there is a last minute train fault but when some workings of a diagram are busier than others, why don’t they split and join units more often to make the most of capacity, is it because it makes diagramming more complicated?

Just wondering if anybody here is familiar with SWR/SWT operations and diagramming in general.

The 11:05 from my experience and 20:05 Weymouths from my observation are both 5 car 444s and both full and sometimes standing.

It’s far more common than it was under South West Trains, I can tell you now. It was fairly unusual under SWT and probably happened once a month or less. Nowadays, there are 444+450 combos out several times a week roughly.

 

[RailWonderer]

It’s far more common than it was under South West Trains, I can tell you now. It was fairly unusual under SWT and probably happened once a month or less. Nowadays, there are 444+450 combos out several times a week roughly.

Do you use the line regularly or have RTT diagrams to note? I’ve never seen one ever and even people who use the line regularly note they rarely ever see them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Do you use the line regularly or have RTT diagrams to note? I’ve never seen one ever and even people who use the line regularly note they rarely ever see them.

Yes, I live near Woking.

 

[swt_passenger]

When we last discussed this, just last month, I’m sure it was said there are none diagrammed. But there are already 5 sizes of Desiro to suit different flows and times of day, 4,5,8,10 and 12 car. Being able to put out 9 car sets doesn’t seem to achieve much…

Portsmouth or Weymouth Stations - Are any served by an Express Train?

It’s increasingly common. SWT did it occasionally but SWR seem to do it rather regularly now. Can you suggest some services which are likely to be formed this way?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Omnishambles]

2 and a half years travelling into Waterloo and never seen any.
Completely understand why not though if splits and attaches through the remainder of the day could be affected

 

[NSE]

I’ve commuted from Raynes Park for four years and frequently used the station before that. I have only ever seen the 444/450 combo twice. Maybe once or twice more, but I recall twice and I think both on a Sunday. I seem to have a vague, vague recollection it was a booked working on a Sunday for a brief period but that could be completely wrong.

 

[DerekC]

I used to catch the 18:15 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour regularly in SWT days and it was not unusual for it to be 9 cars (444+450) - probably happened once every six or eight weeks at one time. The stock arrived empty from Clapham Junction so I imagine it just happened occasionally that they hadn't got two 444 units to put on the service.

 

[paul1609]

A few years ago there were a few occasions when hybrid desiros were run on the Portsmouth Direct line there were real issues with the SDO at short platforms like Fratton where only the front four coaches of a 9 coach train would open because of the short platform and then at Havant the Guard being unable to release the doors in the rear unit. Passengers would panic and operate the emergency release causing the train to be there for 15 mins.

 

[TEW]

9 cars do still have some ASDO related restrictions in place. Basically they are unable to terminate and restart in the opposite direction from stations with short platforms. So a 9 car cannot run to Alton for example.

 

[Dibbo4025]

I'm pretty sure for at least one timetable period, from memory around 2017 or so, there was a booked 444+450 formation

 

[Kieran1990]

I remember when ever a 444+450 turned up on the direct in the up direction guildford was always announced as having a short platform let alone 12 car’s ram all the time.

 

[D7666]

There was a complete service group on Sundays only that was booked 444 + 450; can't remember which timetable but early or mid 201x in at least 1 if not 2 whole timetables; hourly Waterloo > Eastleigh split one portion to Portsmouth one portion to Southampton (or Bournemouth;I forget).

 

[greaterwest]

There was a complete service group on Sundays only that was booked 444 + 450; can't remember which timetable but early or mid 201x in at least 1 if not 2 whole timetables; hourly Waterloo > Eastleigh split one portion to Portsmouth one portion to Southampton (or Bournemouth;I forget).

There was a booked 450/444 on this route a few Sundays ago because of engineering work between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth. Front 5 for Southampton and rear 4 for Portsmouth I believe.

 

[fgwrich]

There was a booked 450/444 on this route a few Sundays ago because of engineering work between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth. Front 5 for Southampton and rear 4 for Portsmouth I believe.

Bingo, I was just thinking about that one as I had it back from Winchester.

 

[Deepgreen]

The answer to the OP's question is that the two types offer different styles of accommodation for different route characteristics, but occasionally there arises a need to run them together (either booked or ad hoc). It's uncommon but not rare.

 

[1018509]

I can see the main line between Sway and New Milton and there are several 444/450 combos a day. During the peak of lockdown there were also plenty of 12 carriage 450's but few if any now. There are also a lot more 8 or 9 carriage 220/221 Voyagers on Cross Country lately and since lockdown but a less frequent service. Haven't seen a 10 car Voyager yet - are they ever formed?

 

[Starmill]

I can see the main line between Sway and New Milton and there are several 444/450 combos a day. During the peak of lockdown there were also plenty of 12 carriage 450's but few if any now. There are also a lot more 8 or 9 carriage 220/221 Voyagers on Cross Country lately and since lockdown but a less frequent service. Haven't seen a 10 car Voyager yet - are they ever formed?

Pairs of 5 cars do run, but it's not common. I don't know whether they've run to Bournemouth specifically.

 

[route101]

I can see the main line between Sway and New Milton and there are several 444/450 combos a day. During the peak of lockdown there were also plenty of 12 carriage 450's but few if any now. There are also a lot more 8 or 9 carriage 220/221 Voyagers on Cross Country lately and since lockdown but a less frequent service. Haven't seen a 10 car Voyager yet - are they ever formed?

I think most of the South Coast XC services are 8 or 9 car. If the Newcastle service returns, this will stop.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can see the main line between Sway and New Milton and there are several 444/450 combos a day.

Yet none today so far, according to realtimetrains?

 

[pompeyfan]

There are no current 9 car diagrams in the LTP carriage workings, but occasionally a 450 will substitute a defective 444. Rumours daily workings are incorrect, I think it’s been at least a month since a 9 car was run outside of weekend short term planning.

In regards to TEW saying that 9 cars can’t turn back at short platforms, I’m not sure that’s correct, certainly 9 cars have been turned back at Fratton in the past. The only time there are issues are if the unit reboots or if a reboot/loss of traction occurs.

 

[Starmill]

There are no current 9 car diagrams in the LTP carriage workings, but occasionally a 450 will substitute a defective 444. Rumours daily workings are incorrect, I think it’s been at least a month since a 9 car was run outside of weekend short term planning.

In regards to TEW saying that 9 cars can’t turn back at short platforms, I’m not sure that’s correct, certainly 9 cars have been turned back at Fratton in the past. The only time there are issues are if the unit reboots or if a reboot/loss of traction occurs.

Sometimes it is possible to turn a train back at a short platform by clearing the route for the train to continue and getting permission to stop beyond the signal. Maybe they can do that at Fratton? Even then not all SDO can accurately deselect leading vehicles, so it might not be possible with passengers onboard. Usually you'd need an appropriate reversing marker too.

 

[pompeyfan]

Sometimes it is possible to turn a train back at a short platform by clearing the route for the train to continue and getting permission to stop beyond the signal. Maybe they can do that at Fratton? Even then not all SDO can accurately deselect leading vehicles, so it might not be possible with passengers onboard. Usually you'd need an appropriate reversing marker too.

The layout at Fratton has the up starting signal off the platform and comfortably accommodates 12 car trains in section. The TMS uses ASDO beacons, and the TMS retains this information unless the TMS is rebooted.

 

[Starmill]

The layout at Fratton has the up starting signal off the platform and comfortably accommodates 12 car trains in section. The TMS uses ASDO beacons, and the TMS retains this information unless the TMS is rebooted.

Ah, I see. So the train can just stop where it usually would and the driver can change ends by just walking through to the new cab. That makes sense.

 

[TEW]

There are no current 9 car diagrams in the LTP carriage workings, but occasionally a 450 will substitute a defective 444. Rumours daily workings are incorrect, I think it’s been at least a month since a 9 car was run outside of weekend short term planning.

In regards to TEW saying that 9 cars can’t turn back at short platforms, I’m not sure that’s correct, certainly 9 cars have been turned back at Fratton in the past. The only time there are issues are if the unit reboots or if a reboot/loss of traction occurs.

I don't recall reading anything to suggest it has been withdrawn but it was an old instruction so the issue may have been fixed now.

 

[NSE]

Just seen a 444/450 heading on the up fast through Raynes Park two minutes ago. The 450 is the NHS one so easy to spot if anyone is reading this/nearby . I think that train is usually 2 x 444 as opposed to 3 x 450 but I may be wrong.

 

[Wychwood93]

Just seen a 444/450 heading on the up fast through Raynes Park two minutes ago. The 450 is the NHS one so easy to spot if anyone is reading this/nearby . I think that train is usually 2 x 444 as opposed to 3 x 450 but I may be wrong.

450067/444022 on the 1P16 0615 Portsmouth Harbour/Waterloo - yesterday it was 444002/450067. 2x444 on Monday.

 

[RailWonderer]

Bingo! Diagram here. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L52768/2022-03-23/detailed#allox_id=0
It then runs ECS to Northam.