Gatwick Express - hiding in plain sight?

[Peregrine 4903]

Pathing through Clapham Junction makes calls there tricky

They really aren't tricky though. There is plenty of capacity for the Gatwick Express services to call at Clapham Junction.

 

[Surreytraveller]

They really aren't tricky though. There is plenty of capacity for the Gatwick Express services to call at Clapham Junction.

They'll clash with other trains at East Croydon if they called at Clapham

 

[JonathanH]

They'll clash with other trains at East Croydon if they called at Clapham

Wouldn't they just leave Victoria earlier (not that that is necessarily easy)?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

They'll clash with other trains at East Croydon if they called at Clapham

Um no they won't. Literally in the Saturday timetable right now, the Gatwick Express trains branded as Southern call at Clapham Junction and it hasn't caused a clash at East Croydon.

 

[dastocks]

Um no they won't. Literally in the Saturday timetable right now, the Gatwick Express trains branded as Southern call at Clapham Junction and it hasn't caused a clash at East Croydon.

The 'pathing difficulties through Clapham Junction' argument is based on the pre-pandemic - and Gatwick Station redevelopment - level of service which was rather more intensive than the current timetable. There are at least 4tph missing from the current timetable.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Wouldn't they just leave Victoria earlier (not that that is necessarily easy)?

They'll be clashes at Victoria if they leave earlier, clashes at East Croydon if they don't

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2022 ==

The 'pathing difficulties through Clapham Junction' argument is based on the pre-pandemic - and Gatwick Station redevelopment - level of service which was rather more intensive than the current timetable. There are at least 4tph missing from the current timetable.

They call in Platform 2 at East Croydon, and already delay the Horshams in Platform 3, so if they arrive Croydon later because they've called at Clapham, it'll be worse

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The 'pathing difficulties through Clapham Junction' argument is based on the pre-pandemic - and Gatwick Station redevelopment - level of service which was rather more intensive than the current timetable. There are at least 4tph missing from the current timetable.

There are 4tph missing from the current timetable. 2 of those were the peak Victoria - Caterham/Tattenham services, which lets be honest, are never going to come back, so that just leave the other two Gatwick Express trains. Getting all 4 Gatwick Express paths to stop would be difficult, but 2 of the 4 is certainly doable.

They'll be clashes at Victoria if they leave earlier, clashes at East Croydon if they don't

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2022 ==


They call in Platform 2 at East Croydon, and already delay the Horshams in Platform 3, so if they arrive Croydon later because they've called at Clapham, it'll be worse

What clashes would there be at Victoria considering the Gatwick Express departs from Platform 13/14?

 

[Surreytraveller]

There are 4tph missing from the current timetable. 2 of those were the peak Victoria - Caterham/Tattenham services, which lets be honest, are never going to come back, so that just leave the other two Gatwick Express trains. Getting all 4 Gatwick Express paths to stop would be difficult, but 2 of the 4 is certainly doable.

What clashes would there be at Victoria considering the Gatwick Express departs from Platform 13/14?

Wouldn't know without checking the timetable. Something coming up the Fast and going into 13 or 12?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Wouldn't know without checking the timetable. Something coming up the Fast and going into 13 or 12?

Nothing comes up the up fast into Platform 12 at London Victoria for most of the day. The only clash would be stuff coming up into Platform 13 and to be honest, that would be a manegable clash. Victoria is not at full capacity I'd say.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Nothing comes up the up fast into Platform 12 at London Victoria for most of the day. The only clash would be stuff coming up into Platform 13 and to be honest, that would be a manegable clash. Victoria is not at full capacity I'd say.

Then they'd call at Clapham on the up, having to cut across the Down Fast to get into 13 or 14, thus delaying departures from Victoria.
Trains would have shorter turnarounds, driver diagrams would have to be longer

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Then they'd call at Clapham on the up, having to cut across the Down Fast to get into 13 or 14, thus delaying departures from Victoria.
Trains would have shorter turnarounds, driver diagrams would have to be longer

To be honest, your assuming that there would be a conflict in the base timetable anyway. London Victoria has a 3 minute junction margin or 1 minute route reset rule. In the WTT, loads of trains have non-mandatory allowances approaching Victoria that can be removed, meaning you can keep your path into Victoria. And a 1 minute route reset and 3 minute junction margin, really isn't that restrictive. Its certainly doable at least for 2tph. 4tph, I agree would be unwise, but for 2 of the 4 Gatwick Express trains, I think you defintley could.

 

[M-Train]

See also the Heathrow Express and, for our HK correspondent, the Hong Kong Airport Express!

Like elsewhere in the world, there's a premium fare for avoiding the "normal" commuter routes.

Re HK: the Airport Express does pay its way, but also never has been busy. Locals often just change buses at the nearby new town of Tung Chung, constructed for the airport (and where I’ve lived all my life!)

 

[Kite159]

I was at East Croydon early afternoon earlier in the week when a Gatwick Express rolled through very slowly. A case of trying to spot the passenger. I'm sure there was at least 1 passenger on board, maybe hiding in the toilet.

A few minutes later a 8 coach 377 rolled in also heading to Victoria which was full & standing with lots of suitcases in the vestibules.

Clear to see the tourist tax for using the slightly faster red train is doing it's job at pushing passengers towards the regular Southern trains

 

[Shernan]

GX are always overpriced and only slightly faster. No point to pay extra. I've only been riding on a GX service once to change at Gatwick for Reading and I was the only person in the carriage.

 

[modernrail]

Each to their own. I'm happy to pay more (albeit at priv rate) to travel on GX to avoid the oiks that often fill up the trains between Victoria and East Croydon.

Classy

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

I was at East Croydon early afternoon earlier in the week when a Gatwick Express rolled through very slowly. A case of trying to spot the passenger. I'm sure there was at least 1 passenger on board, maybe hiding in the toilet.

A few minutes later a 8 coach 377 rolled in also heading to Victoria which was full & standing with lots of suitcases in the vestibules.

Clear to see the tourist tax for using the slightly faster red train is doing it's job at pushing passengers towards the regular Southern trains

Yeah it is a phenomenal use of resources and capacity isn’t it. Just so logical and sensible. Well done The Railway.

 

[miklcct]

GX are always overpriced and only slightly faster. No point to pay extra. I've only been riding on a GX service once to change at Gatwick for Reading and I was the only person in the carriage.

I'll just use PAYG on the first arriving train. If the first train into the station is a GX, I'll pay for it; otherwise I'll just take a green train.

No GX train passes a green train unless the green train is a stopper, as a result I just treat a GX train "a train".

However, it's more likely I'll avoid the use of London Victoria, and use Clapham Junction / London Bridge to avoid the Tube, so as a result the GX can't be used.

 

[Shernan]

probably should make GX 1tph

 

[Kite159]

probably should make GX 1tph

Or keep it as 2tph but ditch any sort of premium fare.
And call them at Clapham, even if pick up only on the way towards Brighton.

 

[modernrail]

The main problem with using the Southern services for Gatwick is the utter lack of luggage space. As plenty of people do use the service for the airport this also means luggage blocking seats, aisles etc. It is a mess. Meanwhile a very similar looking but red and often quite empty train eats up capacity on the same line meaning more seats need to be crammed on to the other train and so no luggage space.

I wonder how all of this could be sorted out, it just seems so complicated.

 

[miklcct]

The main problem with using the Southern services for Gatwick is the utter lack of luggage space. As plenty of people do use the service for the airport this also means luggage blocking seats, aisles etc. It is a mess. Meanwhile a very similar looking but red and often quite empty train eats up capacity on the same line meaning more seats need to be crammed on to the other train and so no luggage space.

I wonder how all of this could be sorted out, it just seems so complicated.

I believe that most airport travellers will use Southern / Thameslink anyway because these trains can get where they want, while Gatwick Express is only useful for Victoria.

Furthermore, if the traveller is luggage heavy, he will avoid the tube at all cost, i.e. preferring to use a direct Thameslink if possible.

I'm also predicting similar to happen when Elizabeth Line runs a full operation in May 2023, where luggage-heavy travellers ram onto the slow trains at the airport to avoid moving luggage in Paddington, leaving Heathrow Express (a truly fast service) empty.

As someone living outside of London, I honestly don't see the point of travelling into a London Terminal under most circumstances, as it's nicer and cheaper to avoid the tube and Central London under most circumstances.

If starting from Gatwick and going to:

- North London: Thameslink direct
- North East London: change at Farringdon then Liverpool Street
- East London: change at Farringdon
- South East London: change at London Bridge
- South London: direct train
- South West London: change at Clapham Junction
- West London: change at Clapham Junction
- North West London: change to the Met at Farringdon, or Thameslink to St Pancras then Euston

And for most Central London destinations, the Thameslink provides a much nicer interchange to the sub-surface lines as well, so my conclusion is that GX is mostly useless.

 

[43066]

Each to their own. I'm happy to pay more (albeit at priv rate) to travel on GX to avoid the oiks that often fill up the trains between Victoria and East Croydon.

Classy

To be fair @Sussex Ben does have a point! Lots of “interesting characters” frequent that part of the network.

 

[yorkie]

I'll just use PAYG on the first arriving train. If the first train into the station is a GX, I'll pay for it; otherwise I'll just take a green train.

If anyone is charged an excess or new fare for travel on GX, when holding a ticket that should be valid under the TSA/NRCoT, be sure to write to GTR and request a refund.

 

[43066]

Yeah it is a phenomenal use of resources and capacity isn’t it. Just so logical and sensible. Well done The Railway.

It probably isn’t. It’s an anachronism that dates back to when Gatwick had a lot of transatlantic carriers and therefore business travellers. Clearly it’s less relevant today when the airport is mostly used by cost conscious tourists flying on EasyJet etc. Ultimately the TOCs can only operate the service they’re contractually required to and the DfT have to take the decision to change it - obviously extending many of the services to serve destinations south of Gatwick some years ago was a move towards this.

 

[yorkie]

Classy

Indeed; at PRIV rate the premium fares are peanuts, especially if you buy to somewhere beyond London e.g. Kentish Town.

Yeah it is a phenomenal use of resources and capacity isn’t it. Just so logical and sensible. Well done The Railway.

At present there is no additional resource; if is literally rebranding the only two London Victoria to Brighton trains each hour (and removing stops, but with no difference in journey times compared to the timetable last month)

if / when Gatwick terminators start up again then yes they are a total waste of capacity

 

[modernrail]

Indeed; at PRIV rate the premium fares are peanuts, especially if you buy to somewhere beyond London e.g. Kentish Town.

At present there is no additional resource; if is literally rebranding the only two London Victoria to Brighton trains each hour (and removing stops, but with no difference in journey times compared to the timetable last month)

if / when Gatwick terminators start up again then yes they are a total waste of capacity

Ah I am confused.

Is the service currently dual branded then? Can you use normal tickets on it? Can you buy GX tickets?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

It probably isn’t. It’s an anachronism that dates back to when Gatwick had a lot of transatlantic carriers and therefore business travellers. Clearly it’s less relevant today when the airport is mostly used by cost conscious tourists flying on EasyJet etc. Ultimately the TOCs can only operate the service they’re contractually required to and the DfT have to take the decision to change it - obviously extending many of the services to serve destinations south of Gatwick some years ago was a move towards this.

We can’t afford expensive anachronisms on routes that are eating up money in infrastructure upgrades.

 

[yorkie]

Ah I am confused.

Is the service currently dual branded then? Can you use normal tickets on it? Can you buy GX tickets?

The service uses GX branded trains and GTR take the view that tickets marked "Southern Only", "Thameslink Only" or "Not Gatwick Express" are not valid on it; they are likely to issue an excess fare to anyone using such a ticket.

Anyone who is charged an excess fare would be well advised to write to customer services seeking a refund on the basis that there is no provision for brand specific fares within the TSA/NRCoT. See dedicated threads on the subject.

GTR are being subject to legal action in this matter, see:

Collective competition claim against Govia Thameslink Railway

This press release hit the newswires yesterday: COLLECTIVE COMPETITION CLAIM AGAINST GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY FOR OVERCHARGING RAIL PASSENGERS ON BRIGHTON MAINLINE SINCE OCTOBER 2015 London 6 July 2021 – An application to commence an opt-out collective action (“Claim”) was launched in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

We can’t afford expensive anachronisms on routes that are eating up money in infrastructure upgrades.

There have been various proposals put forward, see:

• The future of Gatwick Express
• Abolish Gatwick Express?
• Could Gatwick Express be abolished?

 

[modernrail]

The service uses GX branded trains and GTR take the view that tickets marked "Southern Only", "Thameslink Only" or "Not Gatwick Express" are not valid on it; they are likely to issue an excess fare to anyone using such a ticket.

Anyone who is charged an excess fare would be well advised to write to customer services seeking a refund on the basis that there is no provision for brand specific fares within the TSA/NRCoT. See dedicated threads on the subject.

More confused!

In this case surely the problem is already here - it is eating up capacity because the service has replaced existing Southern express services, and so is displacing passengers onto other Southern services (and presumably reducing express options overall?), and to make matters worse, it’s also (potentially illegally) charging an excess to non-displaced passengers who so catch the ‘GX’.

What a nonsense. Southern really does seem to be stuffing pretty much everything up at the moment. Starting to make Victoria a tricky station to use. Oddly, Thameslink has started to feel a lot less flakey that Southern to me recently.

 

[JonathanH]

Oddly, Thameslink has started to feel a lot less flakey that Southern to me recently.

It has been suggested that, because of the fixed formation trains on Thameslink and the need to remove the 455s and 313s, the DfT / GTR are targeting cut backs on Southern services rather than Thameslink ones.

 

[yorkie]

More confused!

In this case surely the problem is already here - it is eating up capacity because the service has replaced existing Southern express services, and so is displacing passengers onto other Southern services (and presumably reducing express options overall?),

Well there is a strong argument to say the trains should have continued to call at East Croydon/Haywards Heath, yes.

and to make matters worse, it’s also (potentially illegally) charging an excess to non-displaced passengers who so catch the ‘GX’.

It's an illegal charge in my opinion and I would encourage everyone to buy the cheaper Thameslink Only ticket and , of told to pay extra, to pay the excess fare (under duress), take a photo of all tickets and write to GTR customer services seeking a refund.

I am more than happy to help anyone to get a refund

 

[dastocks]

It has been suggested that, because of the fixed formation trains on Thameslink and the need to remove the 455s and 313s, the DfT / GTR are targeting cut backs on Southern services rather than Thameslink ones.

It may also be that the contracts with Siemens for leasing and maintaining the Thameslink trains mean they have to be paid for regardless of whether they're actually used, so reducing other services and sending older stock to the scrapyard is the only way to get any savings at all - but this is straying off-topic for this thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

It probably isn’t. It’s an anachronism that dates back to when Gatwick had a lot of transatlantic carriers and therefore business travellers. Clearly it’s less relevant today when the airport is mostly used by cost conscious tourists flying on EasyJet etc. Ultimately the TOCs can only operate the service they’re contractually required to and the DfT have to take the decision to change it - obviously extending many of the services to serve destinations south of Gatwick some years ago was a move towards this.

Back in the early 1990s the Virgin Atlantic Upper Class fares I used between Gatwick and New York included limousine transfers at both ends, with an option for first class travel on the Gatwick Express at the London end. Those days have long gone . The whole concept of a dedicated rail service between London and Gatwick needs to be overhauled because I suspect these days most air passengers only want to get to/from Victoria if they're connecting with services from the coach station. For central and south east London, and most destinations north of the river, Thameslink is a better option and this will be even more so when the Elizabeth Line opens.
Maybe we need a return to the BR days, where northbound services were set-down only at the airport and southbound pick-up only?