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Unions promise to fight bid to make rail staff work weekends

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wobman

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No hate towards Signallers whatsoever but it’s noticeable how they seem to avoid any criticism by the media/general public yet for some reason Traincrew always bear the brunt.
People forget about that to run a railway 7 days a week, it needs traincrew / signallers/ Pway / Station staff / cleaners / catering / train maintenance staff / control / etc etc so if traincrew are going to run a full 7 day rota so all the other elements will have to work Sundays aswell.

I know depots run with skeleton staff on Sundays and that woukd have to change, many elements run on overtime as its far far cheaper to work that way.
 
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No hate towards Signallers whatsoever but it’s noticeable how they seem to avoid any criticism by the media/general public yet for some reason Traincrew always bear the brunt.

How many trains are cancelled due to no signaller vs no train crew? It's been a long time since I worked at NR but Sunday working was never a problem as there was always people climbing over each other to grab them. It should also be noted that NR have sundays committed so as per post #177 above, if you can't find someone to cover it for you you will have to work it.
 

mpthomson

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Which if they are union members, will end up in a Court, with a higher burden of proof
An employment tribunal is a court and works to balance of probability as a burden of proof.

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Surprised employment tribunals don't require beyond all reasonable doubt given the consequences, but the outcome can be appeal to a court
Which works to the same balance of probability, and can only happen if there's an error in law in the judgement, not because someone doen't like the outcome. It's only criminal cases that are beyond reasonable doubt.

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Doesn't matter anyway. There was a recent case where a man off sick was caught at the pub and sacked. He won his employment case in court , because it doesn't say in his contract that he couldn't do that.
Not quite the same thing. He had a FTW cert from is GP (so was genuinely sick) and that didn't bar him from the pub and neither did his work absence policy. That's not the same as claiming to be sick by self-cert and then going on holiday.
 
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Horizon22

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People forget about that to run a railway 7 days a week, it needs traincrew / signallers/ Pway / Station staff / cleaners / catering / train maintenance staff / control / etc etc so if traincrew are going to run a full 7 day rota so all the other elements will have to work Sundays aswell.

I know depots run with skeleton staff on Sundays and that woukd have to change, many elements run on overtime as its far far cheaper to work that way.
Most of the groups above do have Sundays in the working week / committed and never seems to cause an issue. I’ve only known of train crew staff shortages causing multiple cancellations on Sundays. I’ve worked Sundays all the time because that’s what’s in the roster. It’s an expectation - and for me somewhat of a duty - because guess what public transport is pretty much 24/7.

As an aside for those interested in which TOCs are affected in different ways, this topic highlights (as best we know it thanks to forum contributions) train crew Sunday workings.
 

43066

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It’s an expectation - and for me somewhat of a duty - because guess what public transport is pretty much 24/7.

Same for me - my Sundays are inside which I’m absolutely fine with, but then that’s what I signed up to. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for those who signed up to contracts with Sundays outside to have that to continue to be honoured, though. Just as people who signed up to Monday to Friday 9-5 jobs would be absolutely outraged if their employer suddenly expected them to come in on Saturdays or Sundays.

The other thing a lot of people commenting won’t really understand is just what the nature of shift work is like - traincrew work 24/7. Often 0400 starts for a few days (which can often mean alarms going off at 0200), then one or two days off before switching to finishing work at 0100 or 0200. It’s difficult to really appreciate what that’s like until you’ve done it, and that’s why a guaranteed day off per week can be so valuable for people.
 

Bletchleyite

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The other thing a lot of people commenting won’t really understand is just what the nature of shift work is like - traincrew work 24/7. Often 0400 starts for a few days (which can often mean alarms going off at 0200), then one or two days off before switching to finishing work at 0100 or 0200. It’s difficult to really appreciate what that’s like until you’ve done it, and that’s why a guaranteed day off per week can be so valuable for people.

Wouldn't suit everyone, but you could of course have any other day as a guaranteed day off, not just Sundays. Some might prefer it, e.g. if they don't have kids.
 

43066

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Wouldn't suit everyone, but you could of course have any other day as a guaranteed day off, not just Sundays. Some might prefer it, e.g. if they don't have kids.

That’s a sensible suggestion, but rostering is stuck in the dark ages sadly, so it won’t happen. Why do we have to have alternate weeks of lates and earlies (bad for the body clock, longer periods of each would be better), and why do we get paid four weekly rather than monthly, for that matter?! The answer is “Because that’s just the way it is on the railway!”
 

baz962

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An employment tribunal is a court and works to balance of probability as a burden of proof.

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Which works to the same balance of probability, and can only happen if there's an error in law in the judgement, not because someone doen't like the outcome. It's only criminal cases that are beyond reasonable doubt.

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Not quite the same thing. He had a FTW cert from is GP (so was genuinely sick) and that didn't bar him from the pub and neither did his work absence policy. That's not the same as claiming to be sick by self-cert and then going on holiday.
I didn't say it was the same. Potentially opens up other but different claims. As I'm sure you are aware , some ailments are improved with sunny weather. Might be sad ( seasonal affected disorder) or some joint and some skin complaints. So you could self cert and go somewhere sunny to help recuperate. If it isn't in the contract , then who can say you can't. So that particular case was different , but someone might just get away with it in future.
 

nedchester

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I suppose that’s easy to say when you’re in a part of the business that doesn’t operate seven days per week.

You’re still missing the point that increasing headcount costs more and we keep being told the DfT isn’t willing to pay. TOCs (and BR prior to them) have historically found it cheaper to employ fewer staff and rely on overtime, yet I notice you’ve also described overtime payments as “outrageous”. So which is it to be!?

Higher costs, or “outrageous” overtime payments?
I know that it costs more to employ more staff but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

I can also take the line of paying staff 12, 15, 18 hours flat rate pay whether they do 1 hour or 12 hours is equally ridiculous. In many ways I think the TOC should never have agreed to such a deal.

I still maintain there will be a showdown with the rail unions not so much over basic pay but over such things as Sunday working, overtime and other 'allowances'. I don't expect a P&O situation (which for the record is abhorrent) but there could be some take it or leave it deals offered to some in the industry as the Government tries to get more VFM out of the railways.
 

Horizon22

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Same for me - my Sundays are inside which I’m absolutely fine with, but then that’s what I signed up to. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for those who signed up to contracts with Sundays outside to have that to continue to be honoured, though. Just as people who signed up to Monday to Friday 9-5 jobs would be absolutely outraged if their employer suddenly expected them to come in on Saturdays or Sundays.

The other thing a lot of people commenting won’t really understand is just what the nature of shift work is like - traincrew work 24/7. Often 0400 starts for a few days (which can often mean alarms going off at 0200), then one or two days off before switching to finishing work at 0100 or 0200. It’s difficult to really appreciate what that’s like until you’ve done it, and that’s why a guaranteed day off per week can be so valuable for people.

Yes. But I also think it is perfectly reasonable to consult to shift terms to the working week. I appreciate all the differences between what TOCs/unions/DfT have traditionally wanted but post-Covid weekends are manic and I think it is only right as a public service provider, Sunday is no longer treated as it once was and the general, travelling public do expect it to be more reliable (with the obvious caveats for engineering works). And as stated I don’t disagree it will cost more (more rostered shifts, more bodies simple as)

With Sunday rostered as part of the week, rosters will obviously need to be withdrawn and that would be consulted with. I think I’ve mentioned it before though this would generally put an end to the “Saturday” late finish (0100/0200 on Sunday) to have a Sunday “rest day” before starting early on Monday at 0300/0400 which so many crew (understandably) hate. Also let’s not forget there are generally less Sunday diagrams compared to the week anyway so it may be a decent high ratio of 1:x for those that already don’t do it
 

bramling

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Well said, good common sense.
It's very difficult to see why new entrants shouldn't be on different terms - that's how businesses progress, by modifying and updating the way in which they work.

There is no technical reason why you can’t do it. But it’s an absolutely sure-fire way to create an absolutely sickly working atmosphere. I’ve worked somewhere with something similar, and from the experience of the problems is causes it’s something very much to be avoided if at all possible.

Essentially you’ll soon end up with new staff adopting a “why should I bother to do more than the bare minimum when others are getting more than me and no matter how hard I work I will never get it” attitude. Then it’s quite likely game-playing will develop as resentment takes hold.

It’s all very well to - quite correctly - say that the new people would be fully aware what they signed up to. In the real world things don’t work like this. It always amazes me how much resentment festers over comparatively small amounts of money.
 
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Horizon22

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That’s a sensible suggestion, but rostering is stuck in the dark ages sadly, so it won’t happen. Why do we have to have alternate weeks of lates and earlies (bad for the body clock, longer periods of each would be better), and why do we get paid four weekly rather than monthly, for that matter?! The answer is “Because that’s just the way it is on the railway!”

Anywhere that does shift work does alternating weeks - it’s only fair to ensure all the coverage is balanced evenly across a team. Obviously if two people wanted to work something out they could swap or you could have a “mafia” type arrangement like they do on the London Underground to allocate shifts per preference.

But yes 4 weekly is rather unique although not quite the only industry.

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I don't expect a P&O situation (which for the record is abhorrent) but there could be some take it or leave it deals offered to some in the industry as the Government tries to get more VFM out of the railways.

In which case when you say “leave it” are you going to fire drivers which don’t sign up? This would lead to even more cancellations over a pretty lengthy period (12-18 months say) given it takes 12 months to train up a driver (and considerably longer at present due to Covid backlog).
 

mmh

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Anywhere that does shift work does alternating weeks

Not everywhere. In my experience it's very common in manufacturing, for example, for some people to be permanently nights, some permanently day, etc.
 

bramling

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Not everywhere. In my experience it's very common in manufacturing, for example, for some people to be permanently nights, some permanently day, etc.

The thing with the railway is early turns tend to be more popular. So things would be unlikely to balance out. Nights are also niche, though there’s normally a core of people happy to do them regularly.

Again, people like early turns because they can do stuff with the rest of the day. Then they come in tired the next day and have an incident…

Meanwhile, as regards our supposed 24/7 society. Went to a building society today, advertised to be open until 1530. Closed for lunch at 1200! Then to a second one which was open as advertised, but closing at midday most days of the week (except Friday). Then, some business to conduct with Barclays, guess what, branch closed at 1530, and no counter service now til 0930 Monday. 24/7, eh?
 
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wobman

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I know that it costs more to employ more staff but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

I can also take the line of paying staff 12, 15, 18 hours flat rate pay whether they do 1 hour or 12 hours is equally ridiculous. In many ways I think the TOC should never have agreed to such a deal.

I still maintain there will be a showdown with the rail unions not so much over basic pay but over such things as Sunday working, overtime and other 'allowances'. I don't expect a P&O situation (which for the record is abhorrent) but there could be some take it or leave it deals offered to some in the industry as the Government tries to get more VFM out of the railways.
What you are saying is that if you come into work for 5hrs that saves a train being cancelled you get the 5hrs.

Im just wondering We're is the incentive for staff volunteering to come into work on their days off if it's just flat rate pay only ??

The unions want Sundays inside the week as it increases staff complement and thus subscriptions for the unions. It's the structure of the deals and enhancements is what takes negotiating.
 

LAX54

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It’s nice to see that another thread is all train crew oriented once again, when the whole signalling grade for which is most needed for a reliable Sunday service is on a Monday to Saturday working week with sunday shifts being rostered overtime, so if your going to attempt to remake the wheel there are other grades that need to be included in this. No Sunday cover for a workstation, panel or signalbox then no trains at all.
Sunday is outside the working week for Signallers, but I do not think there are that many now that do not work Sundays, in fact NR have their cake and eat it with Sundays..
Outside working week, but generally part of the roster, you can indeed ask for it off, BUT if there is no cover available you must work it
was in in 99 that they wanted to buy out Sundays, but then realised that they could not afford it !
 

bramling

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Sunday is outside the working week for Signallers, but I do not think there are that many now that do not work Sundays, in fact NR have their cake and eat it with Sundays..
Outside working week, but generally part of the roster, you can indeed ask for it off, BUT if there is no cover available you must work it
was in in 99 that they wanted to buy out Sundays, but then realised that they could not afford it !

Newspapers slagging off signallers doesn’t make for sexy headlines, as most of the population have no idea what signallers do. To be fair, they don’t really know what train drivers *actually* do either.

That said, there was something on LU where the Evening Standard made a thing about a member of control staff earning more than the prime minister. What they didn’t mention was that this would have presumably involved a hefty amount of overtime.
 

dk1

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Wouldn't suit everyone, but you could of course have any other day as a guaranteed day off, not just Sundays. Some might prefer it, e.g. if they don't have kids.

Happy to work only Sundays here but that’s never going to happen. I’ve always preferred working weekends.

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That’s a sensible suggestion, but rostering is stuck in the dark ages sadly, so it won’t happen. Why do we have to have alternate weeks of lates and earlies (bad for the body clock, longer periods of each would be better), and why do we get paid four weekly rather than monthly, for that matter?! The answer is “Because that’s just the way it is on the railway!”
It works on the whole so no fix required. Remember there being plenty of resistance to not getting paid weekly & in cash.
 

HowardGWR

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It works on the whole so no fix required. Remember there being plenty of resistance to not getting paid weekly & in cash.
Are people still being paid in cash? I can hardly believe this. I'll bet they are men, if so.
 

dk1

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Are people still being paid in cash? I can hardly believe this. I'll bet they are men, if so.
No of course not now. Back in the 1990s however many rail staff still insisted on it. Don’t think sex had much to do with it but then it was & still is to some extent a male dominated industry.
 

43066

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I know that it costs more to employ more staff but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

I can also take the line of paying staff 12, 15, 18 hours flat rate pay whether they do 1 hour or 12 hours is equally ridiculous. In many ways I think the TOC should never have agreed to such a deal.

I’m still unclear what you think is “ridiculous” about a mutually beneficial, agreed arrangement that provides better value for money than having lots sitting around spare. You do seem to have a particular beef with arrangements involving train crew, so perhaps aren’t looking at it objectively.

As someone who actually does the job, I’m also not remotely convinced it’s true. I’ve worked for two TOCs and I’ve never heard of anyone getting paid 18 hours for one shunt. It sounds like a myth someone has made up to bash traincrew, quite honestly.

We have a 6 hour minimum for a rest day, because otherwise it’s simply not worth doing and nobody would volunteer. That will usually be covering an entire short job, or part of a longer job, usually several hours in the chair. It certainly won’t be one shunt move (which standby or spare would generally be used for).

If they’re really desperate they might offer 12 hours but that’s usually where they’re asking for a favour (for example asking someone already doing a nine hour shift to move their start by more than the agreed amount with less than the agreed notice), so only two or three extra hours paid.

I still maintain there will be a showdown with the rail unions not so much over basic pay but over such things as Sunday working, overtime and other 'allowances'. I don't expect a P&O situation (which for the record is abhorrent) but there could be some take it or leave it deals offered to some in the industry as the Government tries to get more VFM out of the railways.

The current arrangements, including overtime, provide better value for money than employing more people, so I suspect that reliance on overtime will continue.

Yes. But I also think it is perfectly reasonable to consult to shift terms to the working week. I appreciate all the differences between what TOCs/unions/DfT have traditionally wanted but post-Covid weekends are manic and I think it is only right as a public service provider, Sunday is no longer treated as it once was and the general, travelling public do expect it to be more reliable (with the obvious caveats for engineering works). And as stated I don’t disagree it will cost more (more rostered shifts, more bodies simple as)

With Sunday rostered as part of the week, rosters will obviously need to be withdrawn and that would be consulted with. I think I’ve mentioned it before though this would generally put an end to the “Saturday” late finish (0100/0200 on Sunday) to have a Sunday “rest day” before starting early on Monday at 0300/0400 which so many crew (understandably) hate. Also let’s not forget there are generally less Sunday diagrams compared to the week anyway so it may be a decent high ratio of 1:x for those that already don’t do it

In the absence of a perfect solution I think two links is the way to go with this, having seen it work pretty well first hand. Equally, if cost is the main motivating factor, it also seems quite likely that we will carry on with some approximation of the current arrangements, if that is cheaper than increasing headcount.

Anywhere that does shift work does alternating weeks - it’s only fair to ensure all the coverage is balanced evenly across a team. Obviously if two people wanted to work something out they could swap or you could have a “mafia” type arrangement like they do on the London Underground to allocate shifts per preference.

You could have longer periods of each. Or links favouring each, as the TMs have where I am have. The problem there being balancing numbers, given that people tend to favour earlies.

Evening Standard made a thing about a member of control staff earning more than the prime minister. What they didn’t mention was that this would have presumably involved a hefty amount of overtime.

And presumably being rather better at the job ;).
 

bramling

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It obviously depends significantly by TOC, but across the industry, leisure demand has recovered to near 100% of pre-Covid levels - and higher than pre-Covid on some days.

It is commuting and business travel that largely hasn't recovered to anything close to pre-Covid levels. Frankly, with the advent of virtual meetings and WFH, is unlikely to ever do so except on some short-distance commuter flows . The Treasury's stubborn refusal to countenance true flexible season tickets, and a reduction in utterly ludicrous peak restrictions isn't helping matters.

Leisure travel is never going to be as remunerative as business travel, but then again the loss of a lot of commuter traffic has allowed for a reduction in peak extras, which helps to reduce costs. So it's swings and roundabouts and I don't think there is any point shutting the system down just because demand is going to be focused differently going forward.

I was being a little sarcastic about closing the system down! However my more serious point is that I feel a lot of this “leisure travel is the way forward” seems to be being peddled by work from homes who *want* this to be the narrative as it suits their own agenda, which is to maintain home working for as long and as much as they can get away with.

In the same way as people expected sandwich bars to still be there after their sabbatical, it seems that some people think it’s viable for them to work at home, but the railway to still be there in full form to take them for their weekend away to the Lake District, or whatever, and not even to have to pay a premium for the privilege. Unrealistic, and certainly a case to argue that it’s also rather selfish — but then Covid has exposed the worst in some people in numerous ways, leaving spent barbecues all over beauty spots, or buying dogs to be abandoned a few months later are other examples.

On my local routes I see plenty of non-leisure travel (there’s plenty of travel which is both non-leisure and non-office-worker-commuting, for example). Meanwhile the peaks *are* returning, albeit slowly.

Plenty of employers are now making steps to return people to their offices. Mine is. Indeed there was an interesting exchange played out on an intranet forum where the parameters for the “graduated return” to the office had been laid out, and someone made the salient point asking why on earth the office staff needed a graduated return when plenty of others had been expected to come to their normal workplace every day…

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People forget about that to run a railway 7 days a week, it needs traincrew / signallers/ Pway / Station staff / cleaners / catering / train maintenance staff / control / etc etc so if traincrew are going to run a full 7 day rota so all the other elements will have to work Sundays aswell.

I know depots run with skeleton staff on Sundays and that woukd have to change, many elements run on overtime as its far far cheaper to work that way.

In many cases things are a lot easier with control staff, as generally the increased weekend services haven’t required additional headcount, as they’ve simply made fuller utilisation of resources which were already there. Once a signal desk is manned, it doesn’t make much difference whether the service is 1tph or 2tph, whereas for train crews you have to double the number of staff.

Obviously there are cases where boxes have had to have hours extended or opened up when they were formerly closed at certain days/times, but this is the minority, and even then one extra signaller shift can still run a shift’s worth of trains.
 
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muz379

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If they’re really desperate they might offer 12 hours but that’s usually where they’re asking for a favour (for example asking someone already doing a nine hour shift to move their start by more than the agreed amount with less than the agreed notice), so only two or three extra hours paid.
Quite , the small number of times I've been paid more than hours worked for overtime have been either a phone call on the day and asked if I'd mind coming in earlier or asked on the day when booking on if I'd like to help out and stay later . It's usually understood in these circumstances a few hours extra is tagged on . Of course the DFT could mandate that this is no longer the case and only hours worked are paid . But I suspect this would cause majority of those that might do a favour for a few hours extra to no longer agree to do it .
 

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Quite , the small number of times I've been paid more than hours worked for overtime have been either a phone call on the day and asked if I'd mind coming in earlier or asked on the day when booking on if I'd like to help out and stay later . It's usually understood in these circumstances a few hours extra is tagged on . Of course the DFT could mandate that this is no longer the case and only hours worked are paid . But I suspect this would cause majority of those that might do a favour for a few hours extra to no longer agree to do it .

The one which does get my back is when someone offers to do overtime, but then expects a shift off in lieu *as well*. I have refused to cover such work belonging to someone else when the trail leads back to a dodgy deal.
 

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It's becoming increasingly clear that the situation with fuel won't improve substantially, and so it's time to bite some bullets and make public transport more viable to use. Without universal Sunday service, the railway is not of use for a weekend away, for example. This has to be solved even if it costs money.
Yes, but the problem also with Sundays is engineering work. Staff availability to work trains is one thing but the need for engineering works won't go away, and under the current model, will always make Sundays the potential no-go day of the week. Many people simply don't consider Sunday rail travel even if their service happens to unaffected, because the engineering work stigma is ingrained.
 

bramling

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Yes, but the problem also with Sundays is engineering work. Staff availability to work trains is one thing but the need for engineering works won't go away, and under the current model, will always make Sundays the potential no-go day of the week. Many people simply don't consider Sunday rail travel even if their service happens to unaffected, because the engineering work stigma is ingrained.

Absolutely. Take GN out of King’s Cross. You can absolutely guarantee there will be bus replacements for a journey from my station to London on a pretty substantial proportion of Sunday mornings, especially pre-0900 (to be fair, this is the trade-off for a virtually all-night service the rest of the week).

The problem is this introduces two issues. Firstly, if the railway essentially can’t get me into London on a Sunday morning (any bus replacement takes an order of magnitude longer as to make it a distress option only), then I will have no choice but to have alternative arrangements. For most people that will be a car, and once one has paid all the fixed costs the variable costs associated with usage are comparatively marginal. Secondly, if one pays for a season ticket then it will be rather objectionable to find there is no train for a proportion of journeys, which again incentivises the car.

Having said all this, the main thing which in all honesty puts me off weekend rail travel is the fact that many trains turn into mobile crèches full of (in this area in particular) rather arrogant families who expect the world to stop in order to facilitate their precious day out to Oxford Street Primark.
 

muz379

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The one which does get my back is when someone offers to do overtime, but then expects a shift off in lieu *as well*. I have refused to cover such work belonging to someone else when the trail leads back to a dodgy deal.
We had a period of rosters giving people Monday morning off with pay to come in and work a Sunday which they also got paid extra for .

Soon got stopped when 3 or 4 of us filed grievances about not being offered the same and being expected to pick up the work on Monday .
 

bramling

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We had a period of rosters giving people Monday morning off with pay to come in and work a Sunday which they also got paid extra for .

Soon got stopped when 3 or 4 of us filed grievances about not being offered the same and being expected to pick up the work on Monday .

Yes my place had something similar. Got stopped after audit team were tipped off, and quite rightly so.
 

dk1

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We had a period of rosters giving people Monday morning off with pay to come in and work a Sunday which they also got paid extra for .

Soon got stopped when 3 or 4 of us filed grievances about not being offered the same and being expected to pick up the work on Monday .
BOWP the following day is quite a common occurrence with drivers & guards at my TOC. The more flexible you are the more chance you’ve got.
 
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