Unions promise to fight bid to make rail staff work weekends

[43066]

I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand about the use of the phrase “race to the bottom”. Regardless of the phrase’s origins it’s a metaphor which, in this context, clearly refers to the argument for diminution of staff Ts and Cs based on a comparison with (lower) Ts and Cs elsewhere, whether that’s other TOCs or other industries. The overall result being Ts and Cs getting progressively worse everywhere.

 

[O L Leigh]

I do find it very odd how it's almost unique to transport workers now to take the view that there's a zero sum game of company vs workers - i.e. for one to gain the other must somehow lose.

Then clearly you have never seen the chicanery that TOCs employ when in dispute with their employees, for which I think you should count yourself very fortunate.

In large private sector employers these days, if the company has any respect there's a culture of what's good for one is good for the other - most people see the fruits of their labour now as being the good of the firm and therefore themselves long-term, not to get as much out of their employer as they possibly can. I guess it's just a different way of thinking.

That's predicated upon a very big "if".

I have previously mentioned that my last non-railway employer simply imposed new contracts of employment on my former colleagues on a "take it or leave it" basis. Needless to say, those that took it only did so to give themselves a short grace period in which to find employment elsewhere. No-one had ever thought of the need for union representation prior to this, but they sure sought some out once the news broke.

I have also previously mentioned that the lack of union representation in other industries does not mean that union membership and the representation and protections that it brings are not available. They most certainly are. That transport workers are more in-tune with their employment rights and organised enough to exercise them perhaps is indicative of a more proactive and informed approach to employment rather than the reactive, passive approach favoured by the majority.

Either way it's wrong and Lumo clearly aren't engaged in a 'race to the bottom' or anything similar.

No. It would appear that they represent the (ahem) lowest common denominator, as is often the case with open-access operators.

Definitely the opposite.

Well if a race to the bottom is characterised by doing everything as cheaply as possible with it's consequent impacts on quality and safety, then surely the exact opposite would be ensuring the absolute best of everything irrespective of the cost. And if one thing is clear, it's that this is not what you're proposing.

So hardly the exact opposite.

There is some movement on this point. I agree it's an area where compromise is possibility. Unfortunately currently negotiations over the matter have yielded nothing because of the request for overtime to be paid at premium rates.

Believe it or not (and I presume you won't), but some of these requests have come from the TOCs in an attempt to stamp out the practice of "cherry picking".

Enhancements have been discussed as a way of ensuring that staff volunteer for O/T so that they can be allocated an entire diagram rather than phoning up on the day, picking up a single trip and still being paid for the whole day. This would actually save the TOCs money on the basis that cherry picking costs the company more than the enhancements would.

 

[Starmill]

No matter what the topic under debate, whether it be long-overdue pay increases or rest-day working agreements, the automatic and instantaneous response is "Njet".

If you try to consider it from there point of view, rail is very costly and most of the public do not use it frequently. The industry is very good at coming to the government to ask for more money. Usually the government provides more money (though never as much as is asked for), but does that then result in an improvement on the ground? Or something else positive that they can measure? Generally not. There's also a feeling that the railway industry has made the establishment look like fools by the means of funding and the value it achieved in return. Capital projects with large cost overruns are one example.

We could take your approach of criticising the DfT and Treasury and then asking them for more money. Or we could take my approach of voluntarily applying efficiency gains and saying "here's what we could do with more" to tempt them. One approach has historically not been successful and the other has been.

To add yet another example, the NHS has been perhaps the only public service that has been properly effective at getting more cash out of the Treasury. Partly that's because their position with the public is stronger than most other types of service will ever be, but it's also because they have managers who know how to play the Treasury's game. Pay rises in recent years for NHS workers have been reasonable as a result (not that I'd choose to have some non-doctor staff to paid as badly they are).

 

[O L Leigh]

We could take your approach of criticising the DfT and Treasury and then asking them for more money. Or we could take my approach of voluntarily applying efficiency gains and saying "here's what we could do with more" to tempt them. One approach has historically not been successful and the other has been.

OK then, genius. How do you make a depot's worth of drivers fully productive with "no more money"?

 

[Starmill]

OK then, genius. How do you make a depot's worth of drivers fully productive with "no more money"?

If you can't speak to me more politely then I'm just going to ignore you.

 

[O L Leigh]

If you can't speak to me more politely then I'm just going to ignore you.

There's no need to be like that. It's your approach after all, and I'd like you to walk me through a practical application so that I can see how it works.

Please...?

 

[the sniper]

Sunday threads on here are the worst of the worthless, merry-go-round hot air outlets...

The whole premise of the article is ridiculous, that 'staff won't work weekends'. I'd hope by now most people on here know Saturdays are just another work day, if the companies are routinely short of staff on on a Saturday, they're probably short every day but can't cover it up with RDW volunteers on a Saturday. In many places Sundays have been brought into the week with the co-operation of the unions or always were part of the week, with many others willing to accept them in principle. They're not free to implement though, hence why it hasn't happened more widely.

 

[O L Leigh]

To add yet another example, the NHS has been perhaps the only public service that has been properly effective at getting more cash out of the Treasury. Partly that's because their position with the public is stronger than most other types of service will ever be, but it's also because they have managers who know how to play the Treasury's game. Pay rises in recent years for NHS workers have been reasonable as a result (not that I'd choose to have some non-doctor staff to paid as badly they are).

It's not a great parallel, though. And I'm not convinced that increases in funding have much to do with public standing or having greater savvy when dealing with the Treasury either.

I would say that it's got more to do with politicians getting egg on their face if they didn't ensure a properly funded health service. As such, the funding of the NHS has more to do with the survival instincts of serving politicians and civil servants than anything else.

 

[muz379]

Why are the railways so special? In any other industry, which has to stand on its own feet in the marketplace, it is accepted that 24/7 working is required. Time for the government to say that those who insist on fouling the nest can go off the payroll. I've had it up to here with the RMT, who seem to have little regard for the customer.

Maybe theres some wider social utility to railways , maybe they contribute to the wider economy . Think about some of the bigger Northern cities , would their night time economy and the money that generates locally be able to exist without the railways bringing people in ?

Amazes me how rail unions, and some of their more militant members, fail to see that they work in a service industry that operates 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not the convenience of the staff. They get paid a fortune for a job that you can just walk in off the street to do (eg no degree required) yet whine about any attempt to move with the times.

Its interesting that people seem to think that every single rail worker cares about the wider industry in which they work or things that are to the "benefit of the paying customers" . For some its a job , theyll do what the company requres whilst there . Of course the news stories and union quotes are going to appear as if its causing issue over any change , that is what unions are there to do protect staff T's&C's and ensure that any changes are negotiated fairly . But the majority of staff simply come in and get on with the job and trust that between union and management a fair balance will be struck .

You could open this into a wider debate about who the customers really belong to .

 

[LucyP]

But how can you realistically monitor and enforce it? You can self-certify for up to 7 days. Unless you actually catch someone out lying on the beach in Majorca, how would an employer find out?

 

[O L Leigh]

But how can you realistically monitor and enforce it? You can self-certify for up to 7 days. Unless you actually catch someone out lying on the beach in Majorca, how would an employer find out?

"Hello Sam. Are you feeling better now? That's a wicked suntan you have there."

 

[43066]

No. It would appear that they represent the (ahem) lowest common denominator, as is often the case with open-access operators.

Their recent advert for guards (which is what they are because they are safety critical and have dispatch competence for occasional use), paid approximately £10K per year less than similar roles at TOCs and involved two lodge turns per week(!) It would be interesting to know who is driving for them…

But how can you realistically monitor and enforce it? You can self-certify for up to 7 days. Unless you actually catch someone out lying on the beach in Majorca, how would an employer find out?

What, sickness absence?

Attendance at work policies will pick up patterns, so someone being off sick every Sunday they’re rostered to work would be spotted soon enough. Enough absences in a short period will trigger various stages, ultimately leading to dismissal on grounds of capability.

People have certainly been fired for gross misconduct for calling in sick and posting photos of themselves on holiday on faceache.

 

[Efini92]

Surprised employment tribunals don't require beyond all reasonable doubt given the consequences, but the outcome can be appeal to a court

I was surprised too but it’s definitely balance of probability.
I know of a driver who was sacked for something very trivial. What he was saying was a possibility and the company basically said we don’t have to prove beyond reasonable doubt so here’s your p45. It’s worth noting ASLEF were of less use than an ash tray on a motorbike.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2022 ==

Enhancements have been discussed as a way of ensuring that staff volunteer for O/T so that they can be allocated an entire diagram rather than phoning up on the day, picking up a single trip and still being paid for the whole day. This would actually save the TOCs money on the basis that cherry picking costs the company more than the enhancements would.

I believe that was the sticking point in XC’s rdw agreement. Personally I don’t see why ASLEF are so bothered about cherry picking.
Even if there was an enhancement people will still cherry pick. Why come in for 10 hours when you can come in for 5?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What I know is that passenger train drivers are responsible for the lives of many people and deserve to paid well. They need to be well rested for this too. RDW should definitely be voluntary therefore and not relied on. A rotating system should therefore be in place which shares out Sunday working fairly. Sunday is just a normal day now in secular Britain.

 

[mmh]

Sunday is just a normal day now in secular Britain.

Whether you agree with it or not (I don't), Britain is not a "secular" country.

 

[bramling]

What's of note is that those are the areas of industry that most drive leisure travel, which is now the railway's bread and butter.

Leisure isn’t the railway’s bread and butter. If it’s going to be, we might as well close the whole system down and make it into cycle paths, as taking teenagers to the Metro Centre isn’t going to pay its way.

Their recent advert for guards (which is what they are because they are safety critical and have dispatch competence for occasional use), paid approximately £10K per year less than similar roles at TOCs and involved two lodge turns per week(!) It would be interesting to know who is driving for them…



What, sickness absence?

Attendance at work policies will pick up patterns, so someone being off sick every Sunday they’re rostered to work would be spotted soon enough. Enough absences in a short period will trigger various stages, ultimately leading to dismissal on grounds of capability.

People have certainly been fired for gross misconduct for calling in sick and posting photos of themselves on holiday on faceache.

Yes my place has just lost a serial waster for exactly that. Months off work, yet posting pictures on Facebook of attending football matches. Advised by union to resign.

But this doesn’t mean people don’t pull sickies, and it’s no coincidence that weekends and certain other times experience spikes in sickness. And of course Covid has been a godsend for people so inclined to play the system - the attendance at my place over Christmas was abysmal, a whole load of positive LFT followed by negative PCR - with the PCR conveniently unable to be booked until after Christmas.

Reality is most people don’t want to work weekends, and it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s an office worker or train driver.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Leisure isn’t the railway’s bread and butter.

Freight perhaps?

Reality is most people don’t want to work weekends, and it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s an office worker or train driver.

very true and I confess I hate working weekends too though not had to do so recently.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't care who is to blame - I fear for the industry.

My grand father was a member of the NUR and was killed on the railway. I am not anti-union.
I saw what happened to the Printing industry in this country.
I saw what happened to the coal industry in this country.
I saw what happened to the steel industry in this country.

Things change over time. Sunday is no longer "holy". Commuting is not what it was.

Something has to change. Change can be painful. But something has to change.

When I worked in the UK I once was a member of ASTMS (Association of Scientific, Technical and Managerial Staff)

IIRC (slightly OT) Liverpool Dockers in the 1960s refused to handle containers. The business just moved to Rotterdam.

Well said, good common sense.
It's very difficult to see why new entrants shouldn't be on different terms - that's how businesses progress, by modifying and updating the way in which they work.

 

[irish_rail]

As a train driver, I find working 5 days a week (with starts varying from 0430 onwards) already pretty exhausting.
To try and force me to up that to working 6 days a week by commiting me to work Sundays every other week would be frankly unsafe. All I can say is I wouldn't want to be on the train of a train driver who is that fatigued!
Sunday WITHIN the working week ie I am still working 5 days a week, but one of those will sometimes be Sunday is a different matter, and I believe Aslef support this. However, as it costs the treasury more money, the DFT don't want to know! So really this is a case of the government wanting to be seen to be trying to do something about a problem it could easily solve without things getting nasty!

 

[nanstallon]

I don't care who is to blame - I fear for the industry.

My grand father was a member of the NUR and was killed on the railway. I am not anti-union.
I saw what happened to the Printing industry in this country.
I saw what happened to the coal industry in this country.
I saw what happened to the steel industry in this country.

Things change over time. Sunday is no longer "holy". Commuting is not what it was.

Something has to change. Change can be painful. But something has to change.

When I worked in the UK I once was a member of ASTMS (Association of Scientific, Technical and Managerial Staff)

IIRC (slightly OT) Liverpool Dockers in the 1960s refused to handle containers. The business just moved to Rotterdam.

Yes, this is it in a nutshell. I'm old enough to remember the dockers and how such gentlemen as Jack Dash regularly held the country to ransom. Perhaps he did a great job for his colleagues in terms of their own pay, terms and conditions. Jobs in the docks were sought after and indeed passed from father to son. But they killed the goose that laid the golden eggs. People and the country in general get tired of being played for mugs.

But I do wish RMT luck in dealing the P&O situation. Nobody deserves to be sacked en masse by Zoom like that. Sorry if that is OT.

 

[nedchester]

As a train driver, I find working 5 days a week (with starts varying from 0430 onwards) already pretty exhausting.
To try and force me to up that to working 6 days a week by commiting me to work Sundays every other week would be frankly unsafe. All I can say is I wouldn't want to be on the train of a train driver who is that fatigued!
Sunday WITHIN the working week ie I am still working 5 days a week, but one of those will sometimes be Sunday is a different matter, and I believe Aslef support this. However, as it costs the treasury more money, the DFT don't want to know! So really this is a case of the government wanting to be seen to be trying to do something about a problem it could easily solve without things getting nasty!

I think to be fair that if Sunday was in the working week then the plan would be you would still have the same number of days work in a week so still five days. That would mean the TOC employing more staff but as I’ve said before it’s madness that any business that operates 7 days a week has one day that is optional.

 

[baz962]

But how can you realistically monitor and enforce it? You can self-certify for up to 7 days. Unless you actually catch someone out lying on the beach in Majorca, how would an employer find out?

Doesn't matter anyway. There was a recent case where a man off sick was caught at the pub and sacked. He won his employment case in court , because it doesn't say in his contract that he couldn't do that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Leisure isn’t the railway’s bread and butter. If it’s going to be, we might as well close the whole system down and make it into cycle paths, as taking teenagers to the Metro Centre isn’t going to pay its way.

Well, that's how it is. Business travel and commuting is down and will not recover. White collar daily office working is dead, and alternatives to business travel are being chosen far more often.

The "cash cow" of premium priced Anytime Returns like the outrageous Manchester example is over. And the new peaks are (always were to some extent) Friday evening and Sunday afternoon.

 

[Watershed]

Leisure isn’t the railway’s bread and butter. If it’s going to be, we might as well close the whole system down and make it into cycle paths, as taking teenagers to the Metro Centre isn’t going to pay its way.

It obviously depends significantly by TOC, but across the industry, leisure demand has recovered to near 100% of pre-Covid levels - and higher than pre-Covid on some days.

It is commuting and business travel that largely hasn't recovered to anything close to pre-Covid levels. Frankly, with the advent of virtual meetings and WFH, is unlikely to ever do so except on some short-distance commuter flows . The Treasury's stubborn refusal to countenance true flexible season tickets, and a reduction in utterly ludicrous peak restrictions isn't helping matters.

Leisure travel is never going to be as remunerative as business travel, but then again the loss of a lot of commuter traffic has allowed for a reduction in peak extras, which helps to reduce costs. So it's swings and roundabouts and I don't think there is any point shutting the system down just because demand is going to be focused differently going forward.

 

[43066]

I think to be fair that if Sunday was in the working week then the plan would be you would still have 5e same number of days work in a week so still five days. That would mean the TOC employing more staff but as I’ve said before it’s madness that any business that operates 7 days a week has one day that is optional.

I suppose that’s easy to say when you’re in a part of the business that doesn’t operate seven days per week.

You’re still missing the point that increasing headcount costs more and we keep being told the DfT isn’t willing to pay. TOCs (and BR prior to them) have historically found it cheaper to employ fewer staff and rely on overtime, yet I notice you’ve also described overtime payments as “outrageous”. So which is it to be!?

Higher costs, or “outrageous” overtime payments?

 

[Mintona]

As a train driver, I find working 5 days a week (with starts varying from 0430 onwards) already pretty exhausting.
To try and force me to up that to working 6 days a week by commiting me to work Sundays every other week would be frankly unsafe. All I can say is I wouldn't want to be on the train of a train driver who is that fatigued!
Sunday WITHIN the working week ie I am still working 5 days a week, but one of those will sometimes be Sunday is a different matter, and I believe Aslef support this. However, as it costs the treasury more money, the DFT don't want to know! So really this is a case of the government wanting to be seen to be trying to do something about a problem it could easily solve without things getting nasty!

04.30 onwards at Plymouth? That’s practically a late turn, first start is 02.25 up this way!

I do agree with your post though. Today is my second day off in the last 17 days, and none of that has been overtime, with the exception of my two booked Sundays in that time. Having the ability to get rid of a Sunday makes a big difference to fatigue levels. Also agree that having Sundays inside but maintaining a five day week would be much better.

 

[seagull]

For anyone reading who may not understand what Committed Sundays are for traincrew, this explanation might help:

Your contracted hours are 35 per week, Monday to Saturday, with an average day length of either 8.45 (four day week) or 7 (five day week).
You are also rostered to work, as overtime, several Sundays during the year, varying between depots and companies but can be anything up to 50% or so of them.
If you want one of those Sundays off, you cannot use Annual Leave, as they are not part of the working week.
So you have to ask colleagues who are off, whether they could cover your turn instead.
If they can't, you have to work, and bang go any plans you might have had for that weekend.
If however you do go sick, or even "sick", you don't receive sick pay, as it's an overtime day. The flip side of which also means you cannot realistically be disciplined, of course.

So in short, it's a mess, no-one has certainty of staff availability and it makes planning life very difficult too.

 

[O L Leigh]

For anyone reading who may not understand what Committed Sundays are for traincrew, this explanation might help:

Your contracted hours are 35 per week, Monday to Saturday, with an average day length of either 8.45 (four day week) or 7 (five day week).
You are also rostered to work, as overtime, several Sundays during the year, varying between depots and companies but can be anything up to 50% or so of them.
If you want one of those Sundays off, you cannot use Annual Leave, as they are not part of the working week.
So you have to ask colleagues who are off, whether they could cover your turn instead.
If they can't, you have to work, and bang go any plans you might have had for that weekend.
If however you do go sick, or even "sick", you don't receive sick pay, as it's an overtime day. The flip side of which also means you cannot realistically be disciplined, of course.

So in short, it's a mess, no-one has certainty of staff availability and it makes planning life very difficult too.

All of this is correct, but it does paint a rather bleak picture.

Most depots will have staff who are more than happy to hoover up any extra Sundays that are going begging. Indeed, some seem to thrive on it and will actively go looking for them. As such, with a bit of organisation and application it is possible to come to a permanent arrangement with one of these fine folk to take every single one of your Sundays. I know for a fact that several of my colleagues do precisely this and never work a Sunday. Once you have allocated your Sunday to someone and the paperwork sent off to rosters, you are assured of that day off.

Bringing Sundays into the week would mean that you would have to use annual leave to be assured of the day off which a) limits the number you can take and b) still leaves it open to being declined due if the daily leave quota at your depot is already full and cover cannot be arranged.

So there you have both sides of the coin.

 

[Sunset route]

It’s nice to see that another thread is all train crew oriented once again, when the whole signalling grade for which is most needed for a reliable Sunday service is on a Monday to Saturday working week with sunday shifts being rostered overtime, so if your going to attempt to remake the wheel there are other grades that need to be included in this. No Sunday cover for a workstation, panel or signalbox then no trains at all.

 

[Dieseldriver]

It’s nice to see that another thread is all train crew oriented once again, when the whole signalling grade for which is most needed for a reliable Sunday service is on a Monday to Saturday working week with sunday shifts being rostered overtime, so if your going to attempt to remake the wheel there are other grades that need to be included in this. No Sunday cover for a workstation, panel or signalbox then no trains at all.

No hate towards Signallers whatsoever but it’s noticeable how they seem to avoid any criticism by the media/general public yet for some reason Traincrew always bear the brunt.