Contactless PAYG in the Thames Valley

[A S Leib]

GWR - contactless payments

From next Monday (28th March), contactless PAYG will be available on the Henley and Windsor & Eton Central branches.

- Are there currently any plans to extend it further? Leaving out Marlow in the long term wouldn't make much sense, and to a lesser extent neither does leaving out Reading (& Windsor & Eton Riverside) to Feltham and Redhill. I'd be surprised if the North Downs line's done before the Shepperton branch and Surbiton - Guildford are though (ignoring Tap2Go).

- How on earth would this be shown on the Tube and Rail map?

 

[Non Multi]

The contractors haven't yet completed installation on the Marlow branch.

IIRC there's a thread on the expansion of CPAY in the South East in the Fares Advice sub forum. AFAIK it's not being expanded westwards from Reading.

Edit - this is the thread I was referring to:

Possible end to paper tickets in South East?

An article on the Telegraph / in the Sunday Telegraph suggest there are plans afoot to roll out contactless payments and “integrate it into London’s Oyster card regime” They also mention £2bn of savings are required, a “tough settlement” for the railway and that it may be a preemptive action to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Towers]

Contactless on a route the length of Redhill would be an absolute disaster, it's an open invitation for people not to pay the fare. Once word was to get around that all you have to do is wave a bank card of some description and claim to have touched in, fare evasion would skyrocket. As I understand it, the technology to interrogate exactly where/when an individual has touched in simply isn't available to those whose job is to enforce revenue collection on board trains.

Contactless has its place, in big cities on gated metro systems and on buses etc. It doesn't, IMHO, work when clumsily implemented across open stations on random bits of the national rail network. The very last thing that the railway needs is yet more layers of ticketing, and the enforcement just isn't there to ensure that people aren't abusing the system on a massive scale.

The national network is not TfL (despite TfL's best efforts to include half of it in their ever expanding empire), it isn't a local metro system, and it's under immense pressure to perform financially. There are many established options away from paper tickets which work well both for passengers and the industry; e-ticketing, m-ticketing, Ticket-on-Demand and itso. I'd have thought that's a perfectly acceptable array of options?

 

[Class800]

Contactless on a route the length of Redhill would be an absolute disaster, it's an open invitation for people not to pay the fare. Once word was to get around that all you have to do is wave a bank card of some description and claim to have touched in, fare evasion would skyrocket.

Why would that be? If the touch is not registered, you effectively have no ticket. It doesn't offer very good customer protection. But I doubt people could get away with evasion. I did once get let off at Waterloo East at an RPI check when my touch in had not registered at Woolwich Arsenal (may have been a faulty sensor or taken card away too quickly), but the impression I got was the RPI was doing a bit of a favour, and it should have been a PF. He said the reason he was not going to enforce the PF was because the scanner showed a touch in had been made but had not registered, but did advise me to ensure I touched in correctly. There's too much personal responsibility on the railway really, but he was reasonable. I think contactless on Redhill line would lead to a lot of PFs especially on a sunny day when the scanners for contactless aren't always as reliable - no scanners are when it's sunny.

 

[Towers]

I'm happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that roving, on board revenue inspection staff (i.e. guards, TEs and RPIs in railway terms) do not have the ability to be able to indentify in real time whether a user has actually touched in - all they can do is check for the presence of a contactless-enabled card or device. On TfL, the bus inspectors will interrogate the touch devices upon boarding the bus, and are then able to identify who on board has or hasn't touched in, but that is only because they've obtained data from all the relevant card readers. I presume it may be possible to do something along similar lines if undertaking a static block, indeed TfL have some deeply impressive back office equipment. But unless all your staff are carrying a laptop about with them to check a massive database, I can't see that translating across to a bog standard ticket check.

Your encounter at Waterloo East sounds like the inspector might have been "using descretion"! I'm no expert but I can't imagine a card reader would be able to obtain all of your card data but somehow not "register" a tap in - I think they might have been having you on, TV licence detector van style!

 

[mmh]

indeed TfL have some deeply impressive back office equipment. But unless all your staff are carrying a laptop about with them to check a massive database, I can't see that translating across to a bog standard ticket check.

Why do you need a laptop to check a database? Just because your database is massive doesn't mean the device accessing it need be.

 

[Class800]

I'm happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that roving, on board revenue inspection staff (i.e. guards, TEs and RPIs in railway terms) do not have the ability to be able to indentify in real time whether a user has actually touched in - all they can do is check for the presence of a contactless-enabled card or device. On TfL, the bus inspectors will interrogate the touch devices upon boarding the bus, and are then able to identify who on board has or hasn't touched in, but that is only because they've obtained data from all the relevant card readers. I presume it may be possible to do something along similar lines if undertaking a static block, indeed TfL have some deeply impressive back office equipment. But unless all your staff are carrying a laptop about with them to check a massive database, I can't see that translating across to a bog standard ticket check.

Your encounter at Waterloo East sounds like the inspector might have been "using descretion"! I'm no expert but I can't imagine a card reader would be able to obtain all of your card data but somehow not "register" a tap in - I think they might have been having you on, TV licence detector van style!

He said there was evidence my card had touched the reader, but that the reader had not registered it, or something like that. I'm no expert on this either.

 

[Towers]

Indeed; and if such a device were to be made available and duly rolled out, then the entire national network would be able to switch to accepting contactless as soon as the readers were fitted at stations.

The issue is, that currently that isn't how it's working, and how it is working leaves a massive hole in the ability to collect revenue!

 

[Class800]

My biggest concern with how PAYG might work is one of the following 2 issues:

• Single-leg pricing/inability to break journeys/limited ability to use different routings on prices (some pink readers but not many)
• Lack of customer protection in cases of disruption (in London at least the principle seems to be pay for what you use, not what you were intending to use - whereas ticket acceptance is in place e.g. on buses for those with paper tickets)

 

[JonathanH]

Once word was to get around that all you have to do is wave a bank card of some description and claim to have touched in, fare evasion would skyrocket

You don't just 'wave a bank card'. If the bank card hasn't been touched in, an incomplete journey will be registered when the revenue inspector checks the card. All it does is move the confrontation from the point of the revenue inspection to a back office. Not touching a number of times leads to the card being blocked.

My biggest concern with how PAYG might work is one of the following 2 issues:

• Single-leg pricing/inability to break journeys/limited ability to use different routings on prices (some pink readers but not many)
• Lack of customer protection in cases of disruption (in London at least the principle seems to be pay for what you use, not what you were intending to use - whereas ticket acceptance is in place e.g. on buses for those with paper tickets)

Both of these things are of no concern to most users of Contactless who want a point to point journey which is convenient. We may not like the loss of these things but Contactless has been incredibly popular and the public clamour for its extension is very strong.

 

[Class800]

You don't just 'wave a bank card'. If the bank card hasn't been touched in, an incomplete journey will be registered when the revenue inspector checks the card. All it does is move the confrontation from the point of the revenue inspection to a back office. Not touching a number of times leads to the card being blocked.


Both of these things are of no concern to most users of Contactless who want a point to point journey which is convenient. We may not like the loss of these things but Contactless has been incredibly popular and the public clamour for its extension is very strong.

The first point is maybe more of an enthusiast's one about BoJ etc, but I am surprised public wouldn't care about being charged again if they had to take a different route due to a cancellation?

 

[mattdickinson]

GWR - contactless payments

From next Monday (28th March), contactless PAYG will be available on the Henley and Windsor & Eton Central branches.

- Are there currently any plans to extend it further? Leaving out Marlow in the long term wouldn't make much sense, and to a lesser extent neither does leaving out Reading (& Windsor & Eton Riverside) to Feltham and Redhill. I'd be surprised if the North Downs line's done before the Shepperton branch and Surbiton - Guildford are though (ignoring Tap2Go).

- How on earth would this be shown on the Tube and Rail map?

Once Contactless PAYG extends to much of the south east, I would expect the coverage of that map to retreat slightly to cover only the London Zones and the Elizabeth line to Shenfield and Reading.

 

[mmh]

The first point is maybe more of an enthusiast's one about BoJ etc, but I am surprised public wouldn't care about being charged again if they had to take a different route due to a cancellation?

In a TFL style world, BoJ is handled by capping, i.e. you're making multiple journeys, and there's no concept of being "off route" - how could there be with a system where you don't specify where you're going?

 

[miklcct]

My biggest concern with how PAYG might work is one of the following 2 issues:

• Single-leg pricing/inability to break journeys/limited ability to use different routings on prices (some pink readers but not many)
• Lack of customer protection in cases of disruption (in London at least the principle seems to be pay for what you use, not what you were intending to use - whereas ticket acceptance is in place e.g. on buses for those with paper tickets)

If we move to a backend processing system, it will be possible to break journeys like some of the systems already do.

In terms of disruption, a lower temporary fare can be set up on alternative routes that matches the disrupted route.

 

[JonathanH]

In a TFL style world, BoJ is handled by capping, i.e. you're making multiple journeys, and there's no concept of being "off route" - how could there be with a system where you don't specify where you're going?

Capping is Zone 1 centric and I don't see that changing in any way.

 

[Towers]

You don't just 'wave a bank card'. If the bank card hasn't been touched in, an incomplete journey will be registered when the revenue inspector checks the card. All it does is move the confrontation from the point of the revenue inspection to a back office. Not touching a number of times leads to the card being blocked.

Revenue Inspectors working for TfL? RPIs working for TOCs may or may not have access to equipment which has this function, the issue however is that on many, many routes the revenue duties are carried out by guards, and equipping depots with lots of new equipment for this, as well as installing readers everywhere, would be astronomically costly. And for what advantage? The railway collects the same fares. Nobody is deciding not to get on a train just because they can't use contactless.

At some point in the future, hopefully, GBR will begin a swift rollout of a nationally accepted contactless system. In the meantime, there are "modern" ticketing methods available already, and they are well used. More complexity, more cost and more confusion are really not required right now!

 

[hkstudent]

Capping is Zone 1 centric and I don't see that changing in any way.

As contactless payment is expanding to south-east region, things may change. But it's really a crystal ball question.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

Revenue Inspectors working for TfL? RPIs working for TOCs may or may not have access to equipment which has this function, the issue however is that on many, many routes the revenue duties are carried out by guards, and equipping depots with lots of new equipment for this, as well as installing readers everywhere, would be astronomically costly. And for what advantage? The railway collects the same fares. Nobody is deciding not to get on a train just because they can't use contactless.

At some point in the future, hopefully, GBR will begin a swift rollout of a nationally accepted contactless system. In the meantime, there are "modern" ticketing methods available already, and they are well used. More complexity, more cost and more confusion are really not required right now!

E-Ticket with single-leg pricing will be a good mid-way point towards contactless PAYG, as many EU countries like the Netherlands do.
Though I am doubtful about the possibility of a nationwide scale PAYG scheme. Even Japan which has an extensive PAYG system do need to add in "gaps" between various PAYG areas to cap the maximum fares that is chargeable.

(Japan do have on-board validators next to driver cab similar to buses in those remote routes)

 

[philthetube]

Indeed; and if such a device were to be made available and duly rolled out, then the entire national network would be able to switch to accepting contactless as soon as the readers were fitted at stations.

The issue is, that currently that isn't how it's working, and how it is working leaves a massive hole in the ability to collect revenue!

Sounds good but what happens in the case of a failed touch out, charged first class to Thurso or Penzance?

 

[Towers]

Sounds good but what happens in the case of a failed touch out, charged first class to Thurso or Penzance?

Well quite!

 

[MikeWh]

He said the reason he was not going to enforce the PF was because the scanner showed a touch in had been made but had not registered, but did advise me to ensure I touched in correctly.

Probably too far in the past to diagnose, but that sounds like someone not understanding what their device showed.

especially on a sunny day when the scanners for contactless aren't always as reliable - no scanners are when it's sunny.

I've not encountered this issue. It can be difficult (impossible) to see what is displayed on the screen, but I'm not aware of the RFID capability being hindered by sunlight. Can you please expand?

 

[davews]

Any update on when or if rail discounts will be added to debit card contactless? This aspect makes the whole contactless scheme useless for many of us for long distance (as againsts zone 1 TFL) use. And until they withdraw travel cards that remains the cheapest way into and around London for us by a long way.

 

[Taunton]

I've not encountered this issue. It can be difficult (impossible) to see what is displayed on the screen, but I'm not aware of the RFID capability being hindered by sunlight. Can you please expand?

It's an interesting point; the scanner at my local DLR station which over the years has failed several times, unlike the others, is the one that faces south. Never struck me before, I wonder if it was in summer. Solar heating on the read head takes it out of specification?

 

[RPI]

You don't just 'wave a bank card'. If the bank card hasn't been touched in, an incomplete journey will be registered when the revenue inspector checks the card. All it does is move the confrontation from the point of the revenue inspection to a back office. Not touching a number of times leads to the card being blocked.

The issue at the moment is that TfL won't allow any checking software to be loaded onto TOC's ticket checking systems, we have to have actual TfL "RID'S" (Revenue Inspection Device) which are only issued to staff in the East (of GWR anyway), which means that a lot of staff who are based west of Reading working into London don't have one of these and therefore the reality is that a lot of people do just get away with waving a debit card at us. Admittedly this is the railways problem though and not the customer.

 

[Towers]

The issue at the moment is that TfL won't allow any checking software to be loaded onto TOC's ticket checking systems, we have to have actual TfL "RID'S" (Revenue Inspection Device) which are only issued to staff in the East (of GWR anyway), which means that a lot of staff who are based west of Reading working into London don't have one of these and therefore the reality is that a lot of people do just get away with waving a debit card at us. Admittedly this is the railways problem though and not the customer.

Indeed.

And, as I touched upon above, equipment which is currently available to (some) RPIs might not be available at all to guards who, where provided, of course do the vast majority of a TOCs ticket checks!

So yes, many people do just wave a bank card/mobile phone/smart watch etc!

 

[Watershed]

The issue at the moment is that TfL won't allow any checking software to be loaded onto TOC's ticket checking systems, we have to have actual TfL "RID'S" (Revenue Inspection Device) which are only issued to staff in the East (of GWR anyway), which means that a lot of staff who are based west of Reading working into London don't have one of these and therefore the reality is that a lot of people do just get away with waving a debit card at us. Admittedly this is the railways problem though and not the customer.

And even with a TfL RID, that only allows you to check for cards that are blocked, and to later cause a maximum fare to be charged if the card wasn't touched in. So still rather an invitation to ne'er-do-wellers.

 

[JonathanH]

And even with a TfL RID, that only allows you to check for cards that are blocked, and to later cause a maximum fare to be charged if the card wasn't touched in. So still rather an invitation to ne'er-do-wellers.

What more should an RPI ideally be able to see when they check a Contactless card? No judgement needs to be made about whether someone is 'on route' or within a sensible journey time as that is all for back office processing to handle.

 

[Watershed]

What more should an RPI ideally be able to see when they check a Contactless card? No judgement needs to be made about whether someone is 'on route' or within a sensible journey time as that is all for back office processing to handle.

For them to have a meaningful impact, it should be possible for them to check whether the card is touched in, as they can with Oyster cards. That would allow them to issue Penalty Fares or take details for prosecution.

If you commute between two unbarriered stations and only get checked once or twice a year, what's the incentive to buy a ticket otherwise?

 

[RPI]

And even with a TfL RID, that only allows you to check for cards that are blocked, and to later cause a maximum fare to be charged if the card wasn't touched in. So still rather an invitation to ne'er-do-wellers.

Yes definitely, as an RPI based West of Reading I don't have a RID, I sometimes pretend to tap the card with the ticket machine phone just to see their reaction

 

[Towers]

What more should an RPI ideally be able to see when they check a Contactless card? No judgement needs to be made about whether someone is 'on route' or within a sensible journey time as that is all for back office processing to handle.

If the only recourse is a letter turning up weeks or months later, the job of the prosecutions team is clearly going to be much more difficult. No report from the RPI, no statement from the offender, no description of the offender, unlikely that any CCTV might still be available... Makes it a lot more tempting for the individual to refuse to engage altogether or to simply go down the "wasn't me guv" route. Are TOCs going to start attempting to obtain people's banking details to corroborate stories of card use, theft or cloning months after the event? The issues are not difficult to see.

Again, contactless on local networks, metro systems, gated systems, where the fares are simplistic and with few variations, yes all day long. All over the shop on the current national rail network, nightmare!

 

[JonathanH]

Again, contactless on local networks, metro systems, gated systems, where the fares are simplistic and with few variations, yes all day long.

Yes, but isn't the point that there will be a move to simplistic fares in the South East PAYG area? Extension nationwide isn't going to happen I agree.

Gating the stations at Henley, Marlow and Windsor (and Twyford) should have been part of this extension.