Unions promise to fight bid to make rail staff work weekends

[GB]

I've not changed. I've always been opposed to the use of overtime for running any day to day business on an ongoing basis. Overtime is for unexpected emergencies.

You happy to pay an extra 20+% on your tickets then?

 

[Class800]

Fraudulent "sickies" are gross misconduct.

If proven. The burden of proof is on the employer

 

[Bletchleyite]

You happy to pay an extra 20+% on your tickets then?

If it is necessary to ensure a railway that is properly staffed, then yes, that will need to happen.

I'd rather pay 20% extra for a railway that is watch-settingly punctual and reliable than 20% less for one that is utterly unpredictable and useless, such as Northern. And I'd definitely pay more to have a Sunday service if I didn't, because without one I cannot take a weekend away by rail, one of the most common use-cases I have for it.

 

[wobman]

The trouble is, this just doesn’t work in practice, especially as many people are completely obsessed with having weekends off at all cost.

If you do something for new starters, much as it’s a sound concept in theory, what will happen before very long is the newbies get the proper hump, and it will simply start causing issues.

Lots of people simply don’t like working weekends, it’s unfortunately as simple as that. Take London Underground who is the ultimate “weekends inside the week” rail operator, and they still have massive problems with weekend coverage.

Sundays off away from work are valuable to many people, as its family time in their eyes. When I started on the railways Sundays were entirely voluntary now they are committed overtime.

So things do change but it's never easy implementing such structural changes in such a big industry.

 

[bramling]

Arguably it's likely to result in those staff who were unable to read their contract when they signed it to walk, and be replaced with staff who did read it and took the job knowing what it entailed, and will probably do the job with more enthusiasm and better customer service because they won't resent it.

Again, that’s fine in theory.

What would actually happen is they will be replaced with staff who will slip into the same mould within a short space of time, and you’re back to square one, having had a year or two of even greater turmoil in the interim whilst you find a way of training the replacements.

The whole issue has been in the “too difficult” box for very many years. What has raised its salience has been the general increase in weekend demand over time.

One further comment strictly from a user perspective. I am *not* prepared to pay an extra 20% to support weekend leisure users. So it isn’t all staff-led!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If proven. The burden of proof is on the employer

This does make it difficult, but it certainly needs monitoring properly to ensure it is caught and anyone found doing is it sacked in disgrace. It is a fundamental abuse of the relationship of trust which has to exist for employment to be viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

Again, that’s fine in theory.

What would actually happen is they will be replaced with staff who will slip into the same mould within a short space of time, and you’re back to square one, having had a year or two of even greater turmoil in the interim whilst you find a way of training the replacements.

Then let's close the railway.

Seriously, this rotten culture has to be addressed. It's astonishing it isn't when there are typically more than ten applicants for each job. Even if you took a third off the pay (not that I propose that) you'd get more than one applicant for each role. If you've got people clamouring to work for you, you've got a golden opportunity to be very picky about quality and performance. The railway does not pay peanuts, so why does it tolerate monkeys?

 

[baz962]

Arguably it's likely to result in those staff who were unable to read their contract when they signed it to walk, and be replaced with staff who did read it and took the job knowing what it entailed, and will probably do the job with more enthusiasm and better customer service because they won't resent it.

Next thing I'll be reading is that firemen object to being got up in the middle of the night to put a fire out, and prefer a couple of hours' notice so they can have a leisurely breakfast first. It's just ludicrous.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==



Fraudulent "sickies" are gross misconduct.

A that's a bit of a low blow as not driving or guarding a train isn't the same as just leaving people to burn. And also a difference between not being available beforehand and being on shift but refusing to go out. And on a separate note , some firemen/ women only work Monday to Friday. St Neots fire station is only crewed full time Monday to Friday. Outside those times the fire fighters are on call and do indeed require notice of a shout , so not as ridiculous as you think as it happens already.

 

[muz379]

Arguably it's likely to result in those staff who were unable to read their contract when they signed it to walk, and be replaced with staff who did read it and took the job knowing what it entailed, and will probably do the job with more enthusiasm and better customer service because they won't resent it.

Im sorry but to be frank what you are saying just has no bearing in reality .

The other glaring problem with what you are saying is that if someone that has say been there as a train driver for say 2 years leaves because they did not fully appreciate that working weekends was a pain in the backside or because their circumstances have changed and it is now a pain in the backside . You then have to recruit someone else and spend another year training them and probably another year before they sign all their routes depending on the depot . In the meantime you have a sunday job to cover and a load of disgrunteled staff because your attitude towards them is poor .


Treating staff in the manner that you have hinted at as well leads to poor morale which in turn leads to higher turnover .

 

[irish_rail]

All this would achieve is large numbers of traincrew sat around doing not alot on Sundays, as this is when engineering gets done!
Current system is far better , using it as overtime the TOCs are not pointlessly paying for staff who are not needed half the time, and yet when they are needed an overtime rate is paid. Everyone is happy.

If people want a step change to travel on Sundays, then do the engineering mid week instead, as that's what causes the crap service, not lack of crew (in most cases anyway).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Current system is far better , using it as overtime the TOCs are not pointlessly paying for staff who are not needed half the time, and yet when they are needed an overtime rate is paid. Everyone is happy.

I'm not, because staff can just decide to "go to a BBQ" if they're a bit miffed with the company with no recourse, and I get no service.

Another option worth looking at would be that Sunday overtime is by advance application say a month ahead, with withdrawal not possible once a Sunday was agreed unless the employee finds a substitute themselves. I think that may be true at some TOCs? But then you can be surer of cover if it's just in the working week but you let staff swap the shifts if they want and can find a swap.

But otherwise, people can't create their ideal job unless they set up their own business. Working on the railway has many attractions, but shift and weekend work is the downside. You make your choice on that when you accept the job. The majority of jobs are 9-5:30 office/home office work and similarly timed work servicing that. If you want one of those jobs take one. They're a lot easier to get than driving/guarding.

I did have an opportunity come up in my line of work a few years ago which would have resulted in doing a lot of weekends. I didn't take it then moan, I declined to apply for it.

 

[Moonshot]

All this would achieve is large numbers of traincrew sat around doing not alot on Sundays, as this is when engineering gets done!
Current system is far better , using it as overtime the TOCs are not pointlessly paying for staff who are not needed half the time, and yet when they are needed an overtime rate is paid. Everyone is happy.

If people want a step change to travel on Sundays, then do the engineering mid week instead, as that's what causes the crap service, not lack of crew (in most cases anyway).

The current system being a hybrid of some TOCs with Sundays inside and some not?

 

[bramling]

This does make it difficult, but it certainly needs monitoring properly to ensure it is caught and anyone found doing is it sacked in disgrace. It is a fundamental abuse of the relationship of trust which has to exist for employment to be viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==



Then let's close the railway.

Seriously, this rotten culture has to be addressed. It's astonishing it isn't when there are typically more than ten applicants for each job. Even if you took a third off the pay (not that I propose that) you'd get more than one applicant for each role. If you've got people clamouring to work for you, you've got a golden opportunity to be very picky about quality and performance. The railway does not pay peanuts, so why does it tolerate monkeys?

You have answered your own question really.

Many of the people clamouring to work for you are attracted by the salary, but when it comes to it they find there are some nasties which come with that. Weekends is one, having to set the alarm clock for 0200 is another, night work is yet another, and then there’s Christmas.

Perhaps salaries need to be an order of magnitude higher to raise the bar above this?!

 

[O L Leigh]

Another option worth looking at would be that Sunday overtime is by advance application say a month ahead, with withdrawal not possible once a Sunday was agreed unless the employee finds a substitute themselves.

This is why I've been trying to point out to you that the issue is not as widespread as you seem to believe. What you're describing is essentially committed Sundays.

(For the avoidance of doubt, committed Sundays appear in the roster and must be worked by the rostered driver unless cover can be arranged, either by the roster clerk or the driver him/herself.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

If people want a step change to travel on Sundays, then do the engineering mid week instead, as that's what causes the crap service, not lack of crew (in most cases anyway).

...and likewise the Sunday timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have answered your own question really.

Many of the people clamouring to work for you are attracted by the salary, but when it comes to it they find there are some nasties which come with that. Weekends is one, having to set the alarm clock for 0200 is another, night work is yet another, and then there’s Christmas.

Perhaps salaries need to be an order of magnitude higher to raise the bar above this?!

With more than 10 applicants for each role, salaries are plenty high enough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

This is why I've been trying to point out to you that the issue is not as widespread as you seem to believe. What you're describing is essentially committed Sundays.

(For the avoidance of doubt, committed Sundays appear in the roster and must be worked by the rostered driver unless cover can be arranged, either by the roster clerk or the driver him/herself.)

Sounds good. This should be required for all new staff, and made clear at the point of accepting the role that it is the case.

 

[bramling]

All this would achieve is large numbers of traincrew sat around doing not alot on Sundays, as this is when engineering gets done!
Current system is far better , using it as overtime the TOCs are not pointlessly paying for staff who are not needed half the time, and yet when they are needed an overtime rate is paid. Everyone is happy.

If people want a step change to travel on Sundays, then do the engineering mid week instead, as that's what causes the crap service, not lack of crew (in most cases anyway).

That is dodgy, as whilst there would probably be no problem covering things on a miserable weekend in February, there would be issues on higher value weekends.

There really is no easy solution to all this.

 

[TheEdge]

Another option worth looking at would be that Sunday overtime is by advance application say a month ahead, with withdrawal not possible once a Sunday was agreed unless the employee finds a substitute themselves. I think that may be true at some TOCs?

This is what most TOCs are though, mine included. I have committed Sundays, if they can't be covered by someone else I'm obliged to work them, even if they are technically overtime.

Judging by your location you are in WMR land which as I understand is one of the few TOCs that truly has Sundays as purely volunteer overtime and has serious issues covering the work.

 

[AlterEgo]

If proven. The burden of proof is on the employer

There is a lower standard of proof in an employment tribunal, only "balance of probabilities".

 

[O L Leigh]

Sounds good. This should be required for all new staff, and made clear at the point of accepting the role that it is the case.

...subject to negotiation and an appropriate compensation, all of which would be the matter for a ballot.

 

[Moonshot]

...subject to negotiation and an appropriate compensation, all of which would be the matter for a ballot.

Indeed. I'm not against Sundays inside myself as I work them anyway as overtime. Most staff would say the same imo

 

[WelshBluebird]

At the end of the day, for 99% of us on this forum (railway staff or other industries) - if the company we work for wanted us to work a different shift pattern that resulted in working more unsociable hours (either weekends or nights) than what we currently do, then of course we'd be unhappy and either want more money in return for that or the option to continue as is. That isn't a railway only view and isn't really a union only view either (its just unions can make it easier for groups of staff to organise together against these kind of proposals).

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the end of the day, for 99% of us on this forum (railway staff or other industries) - if the company we work for wanted us to work a different shift pattern that resulted in working more unsociable hours (either weekends or nights) than what we currently do, then of course we'd be unhappy and either want more money in return for that or the option to continue as is.

I totally agree, which is why my view is that this should apply to new staff. It can't be unfair if you know the deal when you accept the job - if you don't like the deal on offer you either negotiate (if possible) or walk away and stay in your old job/find a different one.

Existing staff could of course be offered a sweetener to choose to move to the new contract, or could choose to stay as they were, albeit with less Sunday overtime likely to come up. But as these were staff who didn't want to work Sundays, that arguably isn't important.

 

[Class800]

There is a lower standard of proof in an employment tribunal, only "balance of probabilities".

Which if they are union members, will end up in a Court, with a higher burden of proof

 

[al78]

You happy to pay an extra 20+% on your tickets then?

Why would it be 20+%?

I assume the 17% increase in cost posted earlier refers to the cost of paying staff for an extra working day (an extra day of the week translates into 1/6th increase (16.7%) in wages paid). Does it follow that all costs on the railway will increase by the same amount, which is what it should take to justify the same ticket price increase? In addition, if Sunday is made part of the working day, the extra outgoing to cover salaries is at least partly compensated by no longer having to pay staff overtime, so the real increase in salary paid will come to less than 17%.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which if they are union members, will end up in a Court, with a higher burden of proof

No, they end up at an employment tribunal, which relies on the balance of probabilities, not beyond all reasonable doubt.

I personally know of someone who was sacked for taking false sickies, a union rep actually. I have posted about it before.

 

[muz379]

I'm not, because staff can just decide to "go to a BBQ" if they're a bit miffed with the company with no recourse, and I get no service.

In the interests of balance , how often does that happen vs the numbers of times it would happen that staff would have to come in on a sunday even when their work is cancelled because of engineering work ?

Another option worth looking at would be that Sunday overtime is by advance application say a month ahead, with withdrawal not possible once a Sunday was agreed unless the employee finds a substitute themselves. I think that may be true at some TOCs? But then you can be surer of cover if it's just in the working week but you let staff swap the shifts if they want and can find a swap.

I think a month ahead for application is probably too far ahead . What do you do a month out from a bank holiday weekend when you have none ?

I generally decide if I am going to do extra sundays a week in advance maybe two in some cases .

The only way to adrequetly ensure that there is coverage for sundays is to have some contractual requirement to work them coupled with enough spare coverage to ensure that they can be covered . My favoured means is bringing them inside the working week so that the working week stays as a 35hr/4 day week . Committed sundays means that you are not working a true 35hr/4 day week . Unfortunately this would come at a cost .

But otherwise, people can't create their ideal job unless they set up their own business. Working on the railway has many attractions, but shift and weekend work is the downside. You make your choice on that when you accept the job. The majority of jobs are 9-5:30 office/home office work and similarly timed work servicing that. If you want one of those jobs take one. They're a lot easier to get than driving/guarding.

I have no issue working shifts , nights , weekends etc up to the level agreed . What I do have an issue with is the imposition of drastic changes to my roster that would be required to get more sundays into it .

It seems sometimes like the DFT protagonists and other indsutry commentators carry on like they want traincrew in every weekend . If that is the case it would be better for the industry if they said this then we all know where the battle lines are .

This is why I've been trying to point out to you that the issue is not as widespread as you seem to believe. What you're describing is essentially committed Sundays.

Out of interest with your committed sundays are there any spare turns ?

Our committed sundays only have standbys , there is no spare booked sundays . So a sunday can still end up uncovered if that driver is Annual leave / sick or off trains for an incident and there are no volunteers .

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have no issue working shifts , nights , weekends etc up to the level agreed . What I do have an issue with is the imposition of drastic changes to my roster that would be required to get more sundays into it .

I agree, which is why I believe this should only be mandatory for new staff; existing staff could be offered a sweetener to choose to switch to it, or could choose to stay without Sundays.

 

[O L Leigh]

Committed sundays means that you are not working a true 35hr/4 day week . Unfortunately this would come at a cost .

Indeed. You're working 35 hours plus 1 day as overtime.

However, the cost is, I believe, overstated. Bringing Sundays into the working week would require every TOC to increase depot establishment numbers, which means recruiting and training, equipping and managing all of these extra drivers, all of which would also come at a cost.

Out of interest with your committed sundays are there any spare turns ?

There are. In fact, we seem to prefer spare turns to standby ones and only instigated standby turns as a consequence of having "spare at home" due to the pandemic.

 

[GB]

Why would it be 20+%?

I assume the 17% increase in cost posted earlier refers to the cost of paying staff for an extra working day (an extra day of the week translates into 1/6th increase (16.7%) in wages paid). Does it follow that all costs on the railway will increase by the same amount, which is what it should take to justify the same ticket price increase? In addition, if Sunday is made part of the working day, the extra outgoing to cover salaries is at least partly compensated by no longer having to pay staff overtime, so the real increase in salary paid will come to less than 17%.

Wage is only one factor. There is also NI and pension contributions, uniform costs, training and on-going training costs, annual leave entitlements etc all of which costs the company money when employing extra staff, where as those costs are already in the business when uitilsing existing staff.

 

[muz379]

I agree, which is why I believe this should only be mandatory for new staff; existing staff could be offered a sweetener to choose to switch to it, or could choose to stay without Sundays.

Youve raised this idea of new staff a few times now . Tell me more about how yoou envisage that working ? Employ new staff with sundays inside or committed ? , just employ weekend crews ?

Aside from other issues previously raised one glaring issue with just doing it by employing new staff is that it could take years to get to a position to be able to reliably deliver sunday services . And would be inconsistent accross depots . Surely something more drastic is necessary to bring it about in a timely and consistent fashion .

Of course its always going to be a trade unions policy to oppose two tier workforces because eventually it leads to worse terms and conditions .

There are. In fact, we seem to prefer spare turns to standby ones and only instigated standby turns as a consequence of having "spare at home" due to the pandemic.

Is that spare on the roster then so you can be moved to other jobs ?

Atm our committed sundays are only booked ones or work within them hours . No spare which as I said means if there are no volunteers and the booked driver is off for some reason the job is uncovered .

 

[geoffk]

...and likewise the Sunday timetable.

The Sunday economy is of course vastly different from what it was 10, 30 or 50 years ago but public transport (buses and well as railways) has not caught up with this change and much of it continues to regard Sundays as a day of rest. When you had a skeleton Sunday rail service then voluntary arrangements probably worked satisfactorily but we should be aspiring to a seven-day timetable as many European countries already have (when do they do engineering work?). OK this costs money, as has been explained above.