Through GWR Bedwyns to be axed from May 2022

[AM9]

Fair point, bordering on inter-city (in the sense that it links major settlements, i.e. the Solent area with Bristol and South Wales) is how I'd put it, perhaps 'regional express' would be a better term. Comparable perhaps to Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds in 'class' of service.

I wasn't suggesting that IETs should be ordered just for it as that would be unnecessary spending; the point I was trying to make is that, relative to the Cardiff-Bristol-West Country semi-fast/stopping services, it is more of an express route so if the 'Bedwyn' IETs were to go on one of the two, I'd have thought Cardiff-Portsmouth would be the priority.

In relatively recent times (early privatisation) the Cardiff-Portsmouth route got a more 'express' type of unit - the 158 - while the other services mostly got more 'local' type of units - 150s with occasional 153s, IIRC - which seems the way it should be.

I'm not sure that sending expensive nearly new bi-mode trains to run some 28+ miles over 3rd rail with which they are not compatible, sends the right environmental messages.

 

[Western Sunset]

I'm not sure that sending expensive nearly new bi-mode trains to run some 28+ miles over 3rd rail with which they are not compatible, sends the right environmental messages.

Are railways in general, and the DfT in particular, really bothered about sending the "right environmental messages"?

 

[nw1]

I'm not sure that sending expensive nearly new bi-mode trains to run some 28+ miles over 3rd rail with which they are not compatible, sends the right environmental messages.

... but sending them on Cardiff to Plymouth, which has no more OHLE than Cardiff-Portsmouth, does - I'm not sure that's a convincing argument for avoiding Cardiff-Portsmouth.

However thanks @JonathanH @BayPaul for clarifying the likely key reasons.

 

[PG]

I'm not sure that sending expensive nearly new bi-mode trains to run some 28+ miles over 3rd rail with which they are not compatible, sends the right environmental messages.

If we're not careful then some 'bright spark' (no pun intended) will suggest to DfT they'd be better using 769s on Cardiff-Portsmouth!

 

[Alex365Dash]

... but sending them on Cardiff to Plymouth, which has no more OHLE than Cardiff-Portsmouth, does - I'm not sure that's a convincing argument for avoiding Cardiff-Portsmouth.

You can raise a pantograph up on Cardiff - Plymouth and Cardiff - Portsmouth as well, but you’d struggle to lower a third rail shoe on an IET because there isn’t one, so you wouldn’t be able to make use of third rail electrification.

Of course, a 769 would be able to, but for a regional express service, it’s not really the sort of thing you’d want to run.

 

[Horizon22]

You can raise a pantograph up on Cardiff - Plymouth and Cardiff - Portsmouth as well, but you’d struggle to lower a third rail shoe on an IET because there isn’t one, so you wouldn’t be able to make use of third rail electrification.

Of course, a 769 would be able to, but for a regional express service, it’s not really the sort of thing you’d want to run.

Not that they can reliably run yet on a line which is much shorter anyway!

 

[nw1]

You can raise a pantograph up on Cardiff - Plymouth and Cardiff - Portsmouth as well, but you’d struggle to lower a third rail shoe on an IET because there isn’t one, so you wouldn’t be able to make use of third rail electrification.

True, though on Cardiff-Plymouth beyond Bristol there's no electrification full stop - so in terms of maximising 'electric miles', it's the same in either case - no advantage for Plymouth.

 

[JN114]

Generally - where drivers at GWR sign 2+4s, they sign IETs as well. There are some exceptions but it’s by far a majority.

As such it makes much more sense to just directly replace the 2+4s with IETs.

 

[cle]

It's surely the stopping patterns.

Cardiff-Newport-Bristol-Bath-Salisbury-Southampton-Portsmouth
Cardiff-Newport-Bristol-Taunton-Exeter-Plymouth

Neither of these services have those patterns, they aren't IC at all, in any shape or form. They are slow regional services which run through the main places in their regions. But they make calls at tons of smaller places, they are connectors of the small places to the large. Not between the cities - or they shouldn't be (they ostensibly, are because there are no alternatives but there should be!) - a faster pattern would warrant a faster set and 'promotion' in stature. I see the Wessex service as mainly for Trowbridge, Warminster, Bradford to X connectivity - and then Bristol-Cardiff, and then Soton-Pompey. Multiple flows strung together, no end to end.

 

[Statto]

Is there any scope for extending the platforms at Bedwyn, Hungerford, & Kintbury, so trains to & from Plymouth & Cornwall can stop those stations?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is there any scope for extending the platforms at Bedwyn, Hungerford, & Kintbury, so trains to & from Plymouth & Cornwall can stop those stations?

Trains can stop even with short platforms. However you don’t want to slow down the large volumes travelling from Cornwall for the limited off peak traffic at Bedwyn and Kintbury (remember peak services to/from London continue to serve these stations).

 

[AM9]

Is there any scope for extending the platforms at Bedwyn, Hungerford, & Kintbury, so trains to & from Plymouth & Cornwall can stop those stations?

It looks like all three could be done, but apart from the infrastructure cost, are you sure that it would be worth the cost as well as making some of the longest journeys in the GB timetable even longer?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It looks like all three could be done, but apart from the infrastructure cost, are you sure that it would be worth the cost as well as making some of the longest journeys in the GB timetable even longer?

Selective Door Opening.

 

[Bishopstone]

Looking at the May timetable, the fastest off-peak journey times from Paddington to Bedwyn are a respectable 65-70 minutes, involving a change from the Exeter/Paignton/Plymouth IET semi-fast onto the shuttle at Newbury, broadly two-hourly.

I see the connection time at Newbury is as little as 6 minutes, which is tight in the event of frictional delays encountered by the Down IET, en route.

I don’t think Newbury has a Down-facing bay platform (?), so which hidey-hole does the Turbo use to keep it out of the way of the IET, which it slots in behind?

 

[JonathanH]

I don’t think Newbury has a Down-facing bay platform (?), so which hidey-hole does the Turbo use to keep it out of the way of the IET, which it slots in behind?

There are a few different approaches:

The easiest is for the Turbo to simply dwell in the up platform.

Alternatively, the unit can shunt to a siding at the east end of the up platform or run / shunt to the Newbury Racecourse loop and call in the down platform.

There are quite a lot of different shunt moves at Newbury. The RTT schedules should indicate the particular moves made.
https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/berksandhants#T_NEWBURY

 

[Bishopstone]

There are a few different approaches:

The easiest is for the Turbo to simply dwell in the up platform.

Alternatively, the unit can shunt to a siding at the east end of the up platform or run / shunt to the Newbury Racecourse loop and call in the down platform.

There are quite a lot of different shunt moves at Newbury. The RTT schedules should indicate the particular moves made.
https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/berksandhants#T_NEWBURY

Thanks!

 

[AM9]

Selective Door Opening.

OK, but that still has the issue of devaluing a long distance service that has far higher loadings that would be ridiculous to disturb just to save some passengers from a trio of villages in Wiltshire needing to change to get to London.

 

[Goldfish62]

OK, but that still has the issue of devaluing a long distance service that has far higher loadings that would be ridiculous to disturb just to save some passengers from a trio of villages in Wiltshire needing to change to get to London.

Agreed. There's more than enough stops on the West of Englands as it is.

 

[The exile]

There are a few different approaches:

The easiest is for the Turbo to simply dwell in the up platform.

Which ISTR is what used to happen in the days of 117s and Network Expresses ( some of the time at least)

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Presume the best place for these to terminate would be Hungerford, Westbury, Trowbridge or Frome but infrastructure prevents that?

Terminating at Trowbridge would be a no go, as there's no turnback siding there unless it ran to Bradford Junction (where the Cardiff to Portsmouth/Weymouth and Transwilts Lines split) and as far as the Nestle factory at Staverton (no station but on the Melksham branch) to turn round, thinking signalling wise. Its possible to turn back at Frome as its only got one platform, but depending on timing it could be pushing it. Westbury would be better as others have said its a better interchange point.

 

[PG]

The easiest is for the Turbo to simply dwell in the up platform.

Surely that then blocks the Up line for a good while though?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I agree.

Marlborough - a town without a current rail connection, could benefit hugely from a couple of miles of reinstated track, plus being the termination point of Paddington services.

I'd go even further and extend the line to Calne (another town without a rail connection) to Chippenham and you've got yourself another long distance route bolstering the chances that both Hungerford and Kintbury retain their rail services and opening up new connections.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Surely that then blocks the Up line for a good while though?

On the up loop. The up main is kept clear.

 

[PG]

On the up loop. The up main is kept clear.

Thanks

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Thanks

Though you are correct it does block trains calling at Newbury whilst it’s in the loop as there’s only platforms on the loop.

 

[Starmill]

It is a shame that the rollout of battery EMUs hasn't been quicker. This would be perfect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2022 ==

Bedwyn is an utterly arbitrary terminus in the middle of a field. In many ways it's actually amazing, being on a mainline, Beeching didn't shut it. (You can put Cheddington in that bracket, too, FWIW )

Is it actually a problem if those who drive there do so to Newbury instead? It's not much further from Marlborough, for example - I'm struggling to find many other places!

Hungerford (which is bigger) does lose, though.

It's a shame the line doesn't just run from Hungerford to Marlborough. Then that line could be electrified to its terminus and Bedwyn could be closed to be honest. Such is always the way in this country however.

 

[30907]

It's a shame the line doesn't just run from Hungerford to Marlborough. Then that line could be electrified to its terminus and Bedwyn could be closed to be honest. Such is always the way in this country however.

Be interested to know why you think the railway (and before it the canal) took the route it did, leaving Marlborough to the side. Probably ought to be in Speculation though

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Jeez, the number of people calling for Bedwyn to be closed, you’d wonder if this was actually a pro-rail forum or not

 

[Starmill]

Jeez, the number of people calling for Bedwyn to be closed, you’d wonder if this was actually a pro-rail forum or not

It's a common logical fallacy that someone who is a supporter of something must support it to the furthest possible point to qualify at all. Incidentally it's also a common misunderstanding that you arguing for improvements to something means you must not ever criticise it. Indeed, blind zealotry is usually worse advocacy than measured, consistent support.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It's a common logical fallacy that someone who is a supporter of something must support it to the furthest possible point to qualify at all. Incidentally it's also a common misunderstanding that you arguing for improvements to something means you must not ever criticise it. Indeed, blind zealotry is usually worse advocacy than measured, consistent support.

This is true, but you have specifically just said

… and Bedwyn could be closed to be honest.

I’m just curious what data / evidence would support entirely removing Bedwyn’s train service, rather than simply paring it back to meet local demand, even if Marlborough had remained open? There are far smaller rural villages with a functioning station, are you calling for all of their closures as well?