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Russia invades Ukraine

Shrop

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At this point I can't think of how Russia is at all benefiting from this conflict
This is the crux of it. It seems about as stupid as driving around for miles just to put that top up single litre of fuel in your tank. Except that Putin has left a wake of destruction whilst doing so, and quite how he will have a net gain from this fiasco is very hard to see. Just like the fuel idiots, it's motivated by greed without the sense to think it through.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Very courageous of them to speak ill of Putin's actions. Those around Putin must surely be wondering if the benefits of this war are outweighing the consequences, and if Putin is really the best leader for Russia. At this point I can't think of how Russia is at all benefiting from this conflict

Russia has had about 20 years of not benefitting at all from Putin's leadership, so it's not like not-benefitting is anything new, and he's managed to remain leader. Of course the difference is that while Russia as a whole didn't benefit, those around him massively benefitted from the proceeds of corruption, which they won't do from the invasion of Ukraine. Maybe that'll make a difference to their attitudes? I suspect not though - those at the top generally would have too much to lose if Putin goes. :'(
 

johncrossley

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Has it been established yet whether any men who wanted to leave Ukraine but were forced to stay in Ukraine have died?
 

JonasB

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A random thought: If an individual NATO member did something reckless like deciding to police a no fly zone alone without the consent of the others, and found itself getting attacked, would NATO be obliged to step in?

As far as I've understood the treaty, no.
 

AlterEgo

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Has it been established yet whether any men who wanted to leave Ukraine but were forced to stay in Ukraine have died?
I haven't read anything confirming that, although I did read that many Ukrainian citizens who wanted to leave and were unable were only in the country in the first place to work or visit family, and who really live elsewhere in Europe.
 

Gloster

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Russia has had about 20 years of not benefitting at all from Putin's leadership, so it's not like not-benefitting is anything new, and he's managed to remain leader. Of course the difference is that while Russia as a whole didn't benefit, those around him massively benefitted from the proceeds of corruption, which they won't do from the invasion of Ukraine. Maybe that'll make a difference to their attitudes? I suspect not though - those at the top generally would have too much to lose if Putin goes. :'(
I suspect that many of those close to Putin, and who might be a direct threat to him, knew that war was coming and might lead to sanctions. They will have had time to move many of their assets and won’t be so badly affected. Those who may have been useful in the past, but are now rather more estranged (in both distance and influence), can be thrown to the wolves.
 

brad465

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Assuming the speech in the video via the link below has been translated correctly, it's very alarming what Putin is saying, which sounds like he's planning a purge of undesirables:


I have translated and added subtitles to the latest video speech by Vladimir Putin from two hours ago. Please don’t let it go in vain - I want everyone to see what a speech of true fascism looks like. No further comment needed, it’s all here, in his speech
 

Pete_uk

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I've seen a tweet, allegedly from the Russian consulate in Finland asking for anyone who has found themselves receiving anti Russian treatment by the authorities to report it to them.



Remember the original reason for Russia to go into Ukraine in 2014?
 

birchesgreen

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Loppylugs

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Joe Biden calls Putin a war criminal and the Kremlin doesn't like it. This comes as Russia drops a bomb on a theatre in Mariupol housing hundreds of civilians. Can't understand why Putin is being labelled with this rhetoric. (LOL)
 

Strathclyder

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Last edited:

DynamicSpirit

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Looking and sounding more unhinged & detached from reality with each passing day. Stomach-churning doesn't begin to describe what he's implying there. Fascism crystallized.

Agreed. I seem to recall arguing on this very forum a month or so ago that Putin was awful, autocratic, deeply unpleasant etc. etc., but was not by any stretch of the imagination a fascist. I think I may have to rethink that opinion :(
 

Yew

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Surprising Russia hasn’t demanded things like the disbanding of the Azov battalion or actions taken against Ukraine’s far right paramilitary groups in the talks. This would be quite an easy victory to portray back home in Russia.
Indeed, that seems like a solid win for Putins stated "denazification" aim, at little real cost to Ukraine

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Attempting to limit the size of Ukraine’s military is indeed completely absurd. Russia are the aggressor here, if anything they should be the ones demilitarising as they can’t be trusted (that’s never going to happen obviously).

As you say however, everybody needs an opening position in negotiations, and I’d expect both sides to have included demands which they’re willing to concede in the name of compromise.
In negotiation theory, it would be considered an "extreme anchor"
 

oldman

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More probably calculated ranting from Vova Putin:

Trying to "cancel" Russia, the West tore off all the masks of decency, began to act boorishly, demonstrated its true nature.

It just begs a direct comparison with the anti-Semitic pogroms that the Nazis staged in Germany in the 30s of the last century, and then their henchmen from many European countries who joined Hitler's aggression against our country during the Great Patriotic War
Source

There have been a number of snide newspaper articles about (often liberal-minded) celebrities flying abroad, particularly (nudge-nudge) to Israel. I assume they are some of those Putin has in mind, though his speech-writers are too smart to mention Israel.

And the theatre bombing in Mariupil was, of course, done by the Ukrainians as a provocation.
 

Yew

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So "cancelling" is bad, but bombing civilians are fine?
 

jon0844

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A load of rambling drivel, if any other proof was needed that he is pretty ill (especially in the head) then there it is.

But a lot of people here and abroad will love it. I bet Biden gets attacked by the Republicans (especially Trumpers) and I can see many presenters on GB News thinking that this is merely more proof of how great it would be to have a leader like this.

It does seem the right wing here have gone very quiet as they see such support would be unpopular, but I fear it's just gone more underground or has gone more down the dog whistle route. GB News, Farage etc are apparently sending cease and desist orders against people who point out the suspect funding and pro-Russia bias - and a lot of old Tweets and posts have been removed (of course, most still available via Internet archiving sites).
 

DynamicSpirit

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But a lot of people here and abroad will love it. I bet Biden gets attacked by the Republicans (especially Trumpers) and I can see many presenters on GB News thinking that this is merely more proof of how great it would be to have a leader like this.

From what I gather Biden is mainly being attacked by Republicans for not helping the Ukrainians enough and not sending them the fighter jets they Zelensky has been asking for. Pro-Russia people on the right seem to be very much a minority in the US.

It does seem the right wing here have gone very quiet as they see such support would be unpopular, but I fear it's just gone more underground or has gone more down the dog whistle route. GB News, Farage etc are apparently sending cease and desist orders against people who point out the suspect funding and pro-Russia bias - and a lot of old Tweets and posts have been removed (of course, most still available via Internet archiving sites).

Would this be the same 'right wing' who as the current UK Government have done more to supply arms to Ukraine and for longer than almost anyone else (though I can imagine the US are probably overtaking us with the latest announcent) and who have repeatedly condemned the invasion of Ukraine at least as strongly as pretty much every other Government in Europe, with Boris Johnson having said that Russia has commited possible war crimes fully two weeks ago (in contrast to Joe Biden who only used the term today).

(I would though grant that there are a minority further to the right, including Farage, who have rather shamefully been more pro-Putin for a long time)
 

brad465

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Would this be the same 'right wing' who as the current UK Government have done more to supply arms to Ukraine and for longer than almost anyone else (though I can imagine the US are probably overtaking us with the latest announcent) and who have repeatedly condemned the invasion of Ukraine at least as strongly as pretty much every other Government in Europe, with Boris Johnson having said that Russia has commited possible war crimes fully two weeks ago (in contrast to Joe Biden who only used the term today).

(I would though grant that there are a minority further to the right, including Farage, who have rather shamefully been more pro-Putin for a long time)
I think jon0844 was talking more about the "minority further to the right" you included in your last sentence in brackets rather than the government (at least I can't see any reference to our government in his comment). Farage and Arron Banks were named in Parliament this week as having received Russian money/should be sanctioned, under Parliamentary privilege.
 

birchesgreen

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But a lot of people here and abroad will love it. I bet Biden gets attacked by the Republicans (especially Trumpers) and I can see many presenters on GB News thinking that this is merely more proof of how great it would be to have a leader like this.
Well yes there are plenty of idiots around, but its still rambling drivel

It is fascinating to see the mental gynmastics by some on the far right. I regularly check out an American right wing blog as its interesting to see what nonsense they come out with (well good to laugh at anyway). On Ukraine and Putin (someone they praised a lot in the past) they've suddenly become very undecided "I don't know what to believe" and making subtle hints Ukraine and it's President are being manipulated by The Dark Forces.
 

AlterEgo

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A number of military VIP transport aircraft have been spotted on FlightRadar24 heading from Moscow to the Altai Mountains. I estimate that Putin will double down on yesterday's rant and broadcast from a nuclear bunker to make it look like a NATO strike is imminent.
 

Chingy

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Yes, noticed many reports of that on twitter this morning.

It's either what you say or he's planning a significant escalation. Either way, something is amiss.
 

AlterEgo

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My guess is that Putin sees the end game in sight - negotiations continue - and wants to claim *aversion* of a nuclear strike on Russia over the coming weeks as part of his strategy of communicating "a victory" to the Russian people. A nuclear strike by Russia sees them isolated by everybody, even China, and probably the end of the Russian Federation as a political entity.

I dread to think that he is planning an escalation. The movements were done publicly, with the transponders on, which is important - he wants everyone to *see* commanders are (supposedly? was anyone aboard?) hunkering down in remote areas. I believe this is more of the Russian escalate to de-escalate strategy, which is basically the only military strategy Russia has had for about 30 years.
 

bahnause

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From what I gather Biden is mainly being attacked by Republicans for not helping the Ukrainians enough and not sending them the fighter jets they Zelensky has been asking for. Pro-Russia people on the right seem to be very much a minority in the US.
List of House Reps voting against Ukraine Military Aid:

Brian Babin (R-TX)
Andy Biggs (R-AZ)
Gus Bilirakis (R-FL)
Dan Bishop (R-NC)
Earl Blumenauer (D-OR)
Lauren Boebert (R-CO)
Jamaal Bowman (D-NY)
Ken Buck (R-CO)
Tim Burchett (R-TN)
Brian Babib (R-TX)
Michael Burgess (R-TX)
Cori Bush (D-MO)
Kat Cammack (R-FL)
Michael Cloud (R-TX)
Andrew Clyde (R-GA)
Warren Davidson (R-OH)
Scott Eugene DesJarlais (R-TN)
Jeff Duncan (R-SC)
Pat Fallon (R-TX)
Matt Gaetz (R-FL)
Jesús García (D-IL)
Louis Gohmert(R-TX)
Jimmy Gomez (D-CA)
Bob Good (VA)
Lance Gooden (R-TX)
Paul Gosar (R-AZ)
Garret Graves (R-LA)
Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA)
Diana Harshbarger (R-TN)
Kevin Hern (R-OK)
Yvette Herrell (R-NM)
Jody Hice (R-GA)
Clay Higgins (R-LA)
Bill Huizenga (R-MI)
Sara Jacobs (D-CA)
Pramila Jayapal (D-WA)
Jim Jordan (R-OH)
Fred Keller (R-PA)
Mike Kelly (R-PA)
Barbara Lee (D-CA)
Billy Long (R-MO)
Tracey Mann (R-KS)
Thomas Massie (R-KY)
Lisa McClain (R-MI)
Jim McGovern (D- MA)
David McKinley (R-WV)
Alex Mooney (R-WV)
Barry Moore (R-AL)
Troy Nehls (R-TX)
Ralph Norman (R-SC)
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)
Ilhan Omar (D-MN)
Christy Perry (R-PA)
Mark Pocan (D-WI)
Bill Posey (R-FL)
Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)
John Rose (R-TN)
Matt Rosendale (R-MT)
Chip Roy (R-TX)
David Schweikert (R-AZ)
Van Taylor (R-TX)
Tom Tiffany (R-WI)
Rashida Tlaib (D-MI)
Jeff Van Drew (R-NJ)
Tim Walberg (R-MI)
Bonnie Watson Coleman (D-NJ)
Randy Weber (R-TX)
Daniel Webster (R-FL)
Roger Williams (R-TX)
Lee Zeldin (R-NY)

When Russia sanctioned Canada, it barred leaders from all major federal parties, including conservative leaders.

But when Russia sanctioned the U.S., it barred Democratic leaders only. It didn’t name a single GOP leader.

The signal couldn’t be clearer.
 

Cloud Strife

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While it's not a good idea to take anything for granted in war, there are definitely increased amounts of evidence that things are going very badly for Russia. They seem to have become entirely dependent on air strikes, there's no sign of them even building for an attack on Kyiv, and there's also evidence that the Ukrainians are now counterattacking them.

It seems that the RF were completely unable to deal with fortified urban environments, but also that they're struggling to cope with the hit-and-run tactics employed by the Ukrainians. The Americans are also starting to suggest that the Ukrainian numbers are not actually far away from the truth - which is monumental given that everyone assumed that the Ukrainian numbers were heavily exaggerated for propaganda purposes.

https://www.facebook.com/stefan.korshak has been posting daily updates around 18:00 GMT, and while he's not taking anything as truth from either side, he is repeatedly highlighting that the RF appear to be at the limits of their capabilities in terms of ground war. They are continuing to progress in the south, but both Kryvyi Rih and Dnipro have had a long time to fortify themselves. The other eyeopening thing is that it seems that Ukraine is counterattacking west of Kyiv, which is unbelievable given how most observers expected Kyiv to fall quickly.

Russia simply doesn't seem to have an answer (beyond air strikes on civilian infrastructure) for the Ukrainian tactics. The Ukrainians appear to be able to operate quite freely, and yesterday's attack on the Russian forces in Kherson Airport shows that the RF are not safe, even within territory theoretically controlled by them.

The latest tranche of military equipment from the US all but guarantees that the Russians will be attacked using guerilla tactics within occupied areas, and from what I gather, the Russians don't have the manpower to actually control entry to/from these occupied areas. There's even suggestions that the Russians are now pulling forces to Kyiv to focus on the south, because they're facing mission impossible in/around Kyiv.

It's either what you say or he's planning a significant escalation. Either way, something is amiss.

My reading of the situation is that Putin wants military leaders under control of his security forces. He will be well aware that the West can work with Russian military leaders, and there would likely be significant support from the West for a military coup that removed the FSB-cult from Russian politics. The sanctions are biting, and even Air Serbia have given up on flights to/from Belgrade to Russia.

The transponders being on suggests that someone wanted this fact to be broadcast.

IMO, the Russians will try one last surge to try and take Mariupol, but if it fails, the end of the war could well be in sight. The only question is how it ends in this situation: do the Russians unilaterally pull out (and face an almost-certain attack on the self-proclaimed LPR/DPR), or do they agree a peace settlement to return to the pre-war situation? Hard to say, I think.
 

Annetts key

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A lot will depend on if there is a collapse (even partial) of the Russian forces in Ukraine. That would significantly ramp up the pressure on Putin. And it would be a morale booster for Ukrainian forces. That could significantly change this war and the possible result.
 

sonic2009

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So how many of these special VIP aircraft have flown from Moscow to Novosibrisk? Has Putin left Moscow?
 

Cloud Strife

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So how many of these special VIP aircraft have flown from Moscow to Novosibrisk? Has Putin left Moscow?

Eight flew out to different locations. It could be preparation for martial law in Russia pending a mass call-up of 18/19 year olds, especially as it'll be easier to do such a thing east of Moscow rather than in European Russia.

A lot will depend on if there is a collapse (even partial) of the Russian forces in Ukraine. That would significantly ramp up the pressure on Putin. And it would be a morale booster for Ukrainian forces. That could significantly change this war and the possible result.

It seems that the Ukrainians are going for 'death by a thousand cuts' rather than risking their forces in large attacks. It's a sensible tactic, especially if Russian forces start to struggle with basic nutritional needs.
 

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