Collecting a ticket but paid using a virtual card

[charlie04]

Hi all

I’m seeking some advice on my situation. I booked a Lumo ticket (Stevenage to Edinburgh) and I paid using a virtual card. This means there is no physical version of the payment card.

The ticket was to be collected at the station. I didn’t want to do this, as I always use etickets. However, I was given no other option other than collecting from the station. I’m not sure why, but it seems when you click through from the National Rail website, this is the only option you have (I’ve tested this again just now and attached is the image of it being the only option. When I click 'Journey details' there is also no other ticket option). I therefore assumed Lumo uses physical tickets only, or at least for that part of the journey involving Stevenage.



You can see from the screenshot that it has a message saying the payment card and booking reference will be needed for collection, which is fine as I have the card (on my phone) and of course the reference.

So I tried to collect my ticket from the station yesterday but when the machine asked me to present my card there was no contactless option for me to tap my virtual card. I had to insert a physical card, which I don’t have. Just in case it worked, I inserted a relative’s physical card, entered the reference, but it wouldn’t print my ticket, as it says I need the same payment card.

I contacted Lumo this morning and I was advised I should have chosen the eticket option if I couldn’t provide my card. As above, I explained there was no eticket option presented to me, and in any case I can provide my card (contatcless using the exact same card number), I just can’t insert it into the collection machine. Ultimately two options came out of the conversation which I would be grateful for some advice on:

1. I try to collect it again but this time from the ticket desk, presenting my ID and the virtual card. However, the adviser didn’t guarantee this would work.

2. I buy another ticket but this time I start the process on Lumo’s website so an eticket option will be presented to me.

Do you know how likely 1. is to work? Are ticket offices able to do this? My concern is I can’t go back to the station until the day I travel (Tuesday) and the ticket price has already gone up from when I purchased it several weeks ago. So if 1. is unsuccessful then buying another ticket on the day is likely to be even more expensive, if indeed any tickets are still available. So I'm trying to minimise my cost here, as this is already potentially costing me two tickets, as the adviser again couldn't guarantee that if I buy another ticket I would be reimbursed for it.

Thanks all for any guidance.

 

[alistairlees]

Option 1 might well work - ticket offices can turn the "same card collection" flag into an "any card collection" flag, and issue the tickets. At least, Southeastern ones can. I don't know if you will still need a physical card though.

Really though, what should happen is Lumo customer service should just say: "no problem: we will change it so that you can collect with any card from the ticket machine." They should be able to do this in about 10 seconds (we can). You will still need to insert a card with a magstripe at the TVM, but that's it.

You don't have to collect from Stevenage by the way - any station with a TVM will do. Can you more easily get to another?

 

[Haywain]

You don't have to collect from Stevenage by the way - any station with a TVM will do. Can you more easily get to another?

Or any other station with a ticket office, given that using a TVM appears problematic without the cooperation of Lumo.

 

[su31]

I know it's far from the same situation, but I often use Southeastern's booking engine and pay by PayPal. When I go to collect the tickets from the ticket machine, I can use any bank card to start the collection process. I guess each TOC has different rules...

 

[alistairlees]

I know it's far from the same situation, but I often use Southeastern's booking engine and pay by PayPal. When I go to collect the tickets from the ticket machine, I can use any bank card to start the collection process. I guess each TOC has different rules...

No - all retailers (not just TOCs) have the same rules. If you pay with PayPal or Apple Pay or similar, you can collect with any card; the long card number is not known to the retailer so no other option is possible. If you pay with a card then, depending on how the retailer has set their site up and whether you are a repeat customer (for example) then you may be forced to collect with the card you paid with, or allowed to collect with any card. It depends on the appetite for risk, really. Changing the flag is a trivial activity for a customer service person to do, though - or it should be.

 

[Class800]

I've never had any issues collecting tickets bought through Click Travel agency - when I don't have access to the corporate credit card only mine, so am surprised by the issues being encountered, but asking at a ticket office may be the best solution I would agree

 

[James H]

I had this problem with tickets bought at Christmas from the GWR site. Their helpline said they couldn't do anything, so I went to my local GTR ticket office and they printed the tickets without any quibble at all.

I've now switched to using LNER (Airtime Rewards, etc) and to their credit they have a warning on their site against using a virtual card when buying tickets for collection

 

[alistairlees]

I've never had any issues collecting tickets bought through Click Travel agency - when I don't have access to the corporate credit card only mine, so am surprised by the issues being encountered, but asking at a ticket office may be the best solution I would agree

You won't. This is because corporate ticket sales are set to be "Any card collection", to avoid such issues.

 

[yorkie]

Hi all

I’m seeking some advice on my situation. I booked a Lumo ticket (Stevenage to Edinburgh) and I paid using a virtual card. This means there is no physical version of the payment card.

The ticket was to be collected at the station. I didn’t want to do this, as I always use etickets. However, I was given no other option other than collecting from the station. I’m not sure why, but it seems when you click through from the National Rail website, this is the only option you have (I’ve tested this again just now and attached is the image of it being the only option. When I click 'Journey details' there is also no other ticket option). I therefore assumed Lumo uses physical tickets only, or at least for that part of the journey involving Stevenage.

View attachment 111382

You can see from the screenshot that it has a message saying the payment card and booking reference will be needed for collection, which is fine as I have the card (on my phone) and of course the reference.

So I tried to collect my ticket from the station yesterday but when the machine asked me to present my card there was no contactless option for me to tap my virtual card. I had to insert a physical card, which I don’t have. Just in case it worked, I inserted a relative’s physical card, entered the reference, but it wouldn’t print my ticket, as it says I need the same payment card.

I contacted Lumo this morning and I was advised I should have chosen the eticket option if I couldn’t provide my card. As above, I explained there was no eticket option presented to me, and in any case I can provide my card (contatcless using the exact same card number), I just can’t insert it into the collection machine. Ultimately two options came out of the conversation which I would be grateful for some advice on:

1. I try to collect it again but this time from the ticket desk, presenting my ID and the virtual card. However, the adviser didn’t guarantee this would work.

2. I buy another ticket but this time I start the process on Lumo’s website so an eticket option will be presented to me.

Do you know how likely 1. is to work? Are ticket offices able to do this? My concern is I can’t go back to the station until the day I travel (Tuesday) and the ticket price has already gone up from when I purchased it several weeks ago. So if 1. is unsuccessful then buying another ticket on the day is likely to be even more expensive, if indeed any tickets are still available. So I'm trying to minimise my cost here, as this is already potentially costing me two tickets, as the adviser again couldn't guarantee that if I buy another ticket I would be reimbursed for it.

Thanks all for any guidance.

For future reference, Trainsplit will sell Lumo Advances as e-tickets and you also get the option to select your seat.

Also as others have stated, it's also true that if you use a retailer that allows PayPal, this will be collectable using any card.

 

[Haywain]

For future reference, Trainsplit will sell Lumo Advances as e-tickets

As will a good number of others.

 

[yorkie]

As will a good number of others.

But of course the others won't allow seat selection

 

[londonbridge]

I had this last week in fact, I bought tickets from the GWR website as I had a coupon for bonus nectar points, selected TOD and paid with PayPal without thinking. Fortunately I figured out to use the card linked to my PayPal account when I collected them, although this thread has answered my question in as much as any card can be used.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Really though, what should happen is Lumo customer service should just say: "no problem: we will change it so that you can collect with any card from the ticket machine." They should be able to do this in about 10 seconds (we can). You will still need to insert a card with a magstripe at the TVM, but that's it.

Whether it's possible depends on what booking engine they're using. I know it didn't used to be possible to change it on Worldline WebTIS, for example.

That said, a Ticket Office may still be able to issue such tickets even if they're set to "Same Card" collection, depending on how their Ticket Issuing System is configured.

 

[miklcct]

Whether it's possible depends on what booking engine they're using. I know it didn't used to be possible to change it on Worldline WebTIS, for example.

That said, a Ticket Office may still be able to issue such tickets even if they're set to "Same Card" collection, depending on how their Ticket Issuing System is configured.

I have never had problems collecting tickets at a ticket office every time when my different card was rejected at a machine. (I normally use one card for online purchases but another for physical transactions, so I seldom bring that card out)

 

[Wallsendmag]

I've now switched to using LNER (Airtime Rewards, etc) and to their credit they have a warning on their site against using a virtual card when buying tickets for collection

An excellent idea

 

[charlie04]

Thanks all for your replies. I'm unable to go to any ticket office ahead of tomorrow, but I'll try collecting from the office tomorrow and hopefully that works and avoids me having to buy another ticket.

Thanks also about the alternative ways to book and pay. I'll certainly use one of those next time so that this doesn't happen again!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If all else fails then Lumo on board staff may be able to print the ticket. Many TOCS which use Star Mobile, which is First Group's preferred mobile TIS, have TOD Collection enabled. The Guard only needs to type in the reference and type in some of the card numbers and the actual card does not need to be inserted anywhere. In the case of virtual cards, as long as you can tell the guard the first 6 and last 4 digits of the card number this should suffice, as they type the numbers in manually.

For any card collection, as well as paypal, google pay etc, then 123456 and 1234 normally works.

Whilst on board collection has decreased of late it is still something I have do relatively frequently for one reason or another.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If all else fails then Lumo on board staff may be able to print the ticket. Many TOCS which use Star Mobile, which is First Group's preferred mobile TIS, have TOD Collection enabled. The Guard only needs to type in the reference and type in some of the card numbers and the actual card does not need to be inserted anywhere. In the case of virtual cards, as long as you can tell the guard the first 6 and last 4 digits of the card number this should suffice, as they type the numbers in manually.

For any card collection, as well as paypal, google pay etc, then 123456 and 1234 normally works.

Whilst on board collection has decreased of late it is still something I have do relatively frequently for one reason or another.

While helpful that won't get you through a gateline.

 

[charlie04]

[Edited to clarify the post following it being merged here]

Hi all, this issue has now resulted in a complaint to the Ombudsman. I’m struggling with the Ombudsman service and seem to be hitting roadblocks, so I would appreciate thoughts on whether I should continue to proceed or if the Ombudsman is more operator centric and it’s a waste of my time.

To summarise the above thread, I paid for a ticket using a virtual card (i.e. a payment card that exists only on my phone). This meant I was unable to collect the ticket from the machine as I couldn’t insert that card into the machine.

You can see from the thread that I took steps, including contacting Lumo, ahead of travel to try to get it resolved. Lumo’s advice was to buy another ticket and I should be able to be refunded for it. I decided in the end to follow that advice, especially as I didn’t want to risk being accused of fare evasion.

What’s happened since is:

• I sought a refund from Lumo for the second ticket I bought. Lumo refused this saying I should have known to bring my payment card with me, so it was my fault I had to buy the second ticket.
  
  
• I replied saying I did bring my card with me, but I couldn’t present it (as it’s a virtual card) and there was no warning or prohibition in their terms to say I couldn’t pay using a virtual card, which was precisely the point of my complaint. Lumo again replied ignoring the substance of my complaint, saying I should have brought my card with me to collect the ticket.
  
  
• I asked Lumo if that was its final reply so I can take the matter to the Ombudsman. It didn’t reply to me so after several months I’ve complained to the Ombudsman anyway.

It’s currently at the initial stage so no decision has been made yet, but so far the Ombudsman has said:

• Lumo’s response is that paying with a virtual card is prohibited by its terms and conditions. (This obviously now differs from its responses to me previously where it said I didn't bring my card.)
  
  
• I reviewed Lumo's terms including NR's which are incorporated and couldn't find this prohibition. So I asked the Ombudsman where in the terms it states this.
  
  
• It came back saying it's actually a 'More Info' tab on the website where this is contained. I couldn’t find this tab so I sent screenshots of my booking journey to the Ombudsman – i.e. finding the ticket on the NR website, clicking Buy Now, being redirected to Lumo’s website, and moving through the booking process. The only warning is that the customer needs to bring their payment card and booking reference with them. There is no More Info tab or any virtual card warning.
  
  
• The Ombudsman has come back with screenshots from the NR website. I've uploaded these two images to this post. They do say e-cards cannot be used and apparently it’s part of a More Info tab. However, I again cannot find this More Info tab which takes the customer to this information, especially during the booking journey.
  
  So I’ve sent a video of my desktop as I go through the booking journey and asked them to point out where precisely this More Info tab that tells me I cannot book using a virtual card. I’ve uploaded this video to the post so you can see what I mean about not being presented with any such More Info tab or further information which the Ombudsman is saying is there.

My concerns are:

1. I’m having to test the evidence. I would have thought the Ombudsman would be testing it, rather than accepting at face value what Lumo has said and finding screenshots that supports Lumo’s case, which I then have to test and revert back to them on?

2. They seem to be taking the view that it’s incumbent on the customer to be finding information on the NR website, rather than Lumo presenting it during the booking journey. This seems absurd given NR automatically redirects you into a new tab to book the ticket with Lumo when Buy Now is clicked (see the video attached), so why would the customer keep navigating the NR website to locate this information instead of being provided it by Lumo?

I seldom use the rail service, so am I just out of touch and this is how things are and I'm wasting my time? Or do you feel my complaint has sufficient substance so that it’s worth continuing?

Thanks for any assistance and input you can provide.

 

[mrmartin]

i can't see any mention of this on their actual T&Cs on their website.

What a shambles - i cannot understand why they don't just refund it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a virtual card that can be added to Apple or Google Pay, I guess? If it's like the Chase Bank nonsense (or a Monzo virtual card, which is the same but at least you know it is!) then that's not the same, because you can't bring that with you - it's just a number, not a card.

If I were Lumo I'd refund it (it's not masses of money) and then change that first screenshot to say "physical payment card" and a note that virtual cards must not be used, so it doesn't happen again.

But it's too much for the railway to be customer-friendly, isn't it? And I suppose Lumo is Ryanair on rails...

 

[charlie04]

This is a virtual card that can be added to Apple or Google Pay, I guess? If it's like the Chase Bank nonsense (or a Monzo virtual card, which is the same but at least you know it is!) then that's not the same, because you can't bring that with you - it's just a number, not a card.

If I were Lumo I'd refund it (it's not masses of money) and then change that first screenshot to say "physical payment card" and a note that virtual cards must not be used, so it doesn't happen again.

But it's too much for the railway to be customer-friendly, isn't it? And I suppose Lumo is Ryanair on rails...

Yes that's right and I use it at physical locations all the time, so I assumed I could use it to tap and collect the ticket.

According to them there is kind of a note like that tucked within a More Info tab, as set out in the two screenshots in my last post which the Ombudsman has sent to me. But I cannot fathom where that is. When I click through from the NR website there's at no point such information provided to me.

And it's extremely frustrating that the Ombudsman appears to be taking at face value whatever Lumo is stating despite their story having changed several times - 1) I failed to bring my card; 2) Ok you did bring your card but our terms prohibit using a virtual card; 3) The prohibition is actually contained in a More Info tab on our website; 4) Actually the prohibition is part of the NR website when booking.

The whole process is simply absurd to me.

i can't see any mention of this on their actual T&Cs on their website.

What a shambles - i cannot understand why they don't just refund it.

Neither could I. They are claiming there's some More Info tab which incorporates the prohibition and that's what the two screenshots in my last post relate to which the Ombudsman sent to me. But that More Info tab and information doesn't seem to be presented anywhere within the booking journey when clicking through to buy the ticket from the NR website.

 

[Watershed]

And it's extremely frustrating that the Ombudsman appears to be taking at face value whatever Lumo is stating despite their story having changed several times - 1) I failed to bring my card; 2) Ok you did bring your card but our terms prohibit using a virtual card; 3) The prohibition is actually contained in a More Info tab on our website; 4) Actually the prohibition is part of the NR website when booking.

The whole process is simply absurd to me.

It just goes to highlight how utterly useless the Ombudsman is as a way of resolving disputes. They're not interested in coming to the kind of fair and impartial decision that an outsider would reach - they're there to rubber-stamp the decision that the TOC has already reached. As you say, they simply seem to take any argument the TOC makes at face value, rather than probing it

 

[100andthirty]

******RANT WARNING****** (BYW I think the OP is being utterly reasonable)

Why oh why does the railway industry spend so much time trying to prove some trivial detail buried deep in terms and conditions that will just p*ss of a customer. They should a) cut their losses and pay the £44 and b) sort out their booking systems. And........
Why oh why does the railway industry insist on a payment card being presented as well as a booking code, especially when collection can be set to allow any card? If any card is allowed, what's the point? If necessary, add another digit to the booking code to further reduce the risk that some random number twiddler accidentally stumbles on a valid code!

******RANT OVER********

 

[Watershed]

Why oh why does the railway industry spend so much time trying to prove some trivial detail buried deep in terms and conditions that will just p*ss of a customer. They should a) cut their losses and pay the £44 and b) sort out their booking systems. And........

Because many companies in the rail industry seem to adopt the default position that 'the customer is always wrong', or rather 'we are always right'. As you say, any objective view of this situation will show that Lumo are being blatantly unreasonable here, and damaging their reputation (not that they have much of one to protect!).

Why oh why does the railway industry insist on a payment card being presented as well as a booking code, especially when collection can be set to allow any card? If any card is allowed, what's the point? If necessary, add another digit to the booking code to further reduce the risk that some random number twiddler accidentally stumbles on a valid code!

It's essentially a hangover from the days before proper card transaction verification was in routine use. The scam was that people would use stolen card details to buy tickets, and then be able to pick them up without ever coming into physical possession of the card.

Now that card transactions generally require 2-step verification (at least on the first occasion that a card is used with a given retailer), it's generally unnecessary. Good retailers will have sufficient fraud protection measures in place so as allow 'any card collection' on most, if not all, bookings.

 

[100andthirty]

It's lovely of you to reply @Watershed, and it has helped me to understand why a card is required, but as you say, the railway's tech hasn't caught up with how it is used by customers in this smartphone world.

 

[AlterEgo]

It just goes to highlight how utterly useless the Ombudsman is as a way of resolving disputes. They're not interested in coming to the kind of fair and impartial decision that an outsider would reach - they're there to rubber-stamp the decision that the TOC has already reached. As you say, they simply seem to take any argument the TOC makes at face value, rather than probing it

I couldn't agree more! A proper ombudsman would have mandated the refund and told them to comp you £20 or so for the hassle at a minumum.

Sadly this is the woeful standard of ombudsman we expected when it was set up.

 

[charlie04]

Thanks all, it's reassuring to know it's not just me that's finding this situation perplexing!

I'm not holding out much hope for a quick resolution to all of this, but I'll update the thread when there's a material update from the Ombudsman.

 

[richw]

I’d also add it’s irrelevant what the website and more info say now, what it said back in March is applicable

 

[Dent]

It's essentially a hangover from the days before proper card transaction verification was in routine use. The scam was that people would use stolen card details to buy tickets, and then be able to pick them up without ever coming into physical possession of the card.

Now that card transactions generally require 2-step verification (at least on the first occasion that a card is used with a given retailer), it's generally unnecessary. Good retailers will have sufficient fraud protection measures in place so as allow 'any card collection' on most, if not all, bookings.

That still doesn't explain the purpose of requiring a card to be presented for "any card collection". The card is obviously not being used to verify anything, so why require it to be presented at all?

How exactly does requiring any card to be presented, and then blindly accepting whatever card it is without anything being verified, prevent the scam you described?