Historic passenger train lengths in the UK

[Ken H]

There's the famous example from Foxwell's Express Trains English and Foreign of the 07:50 Perth-Inverness train on August 7, 1888 (i.e. approaching the Glorious Twelfth), which had 36 vehicles (albeit plenty of them horseboxes, vans or carriage trucks, presumably four-wheeled) from nine companies, with two engines on the front and a third banking from Blair Athol ("Left Perth 20 minutes late. Left Kingussie 72 minutes late.") - see this link:

https://archive.org/details/expresstrainsen00foxwgoog/page/n72/mode/2up?view=theater

(It gets cited a lot in other works - in fact, the archive.org link comes courtesy of a mention in the Wikipedia article on the Highland, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Railway - and I'm pretty sure it's been discussed in these parts before.)

Rolt in his book Red For danger discusses long trains when describing some accident. most in the 19th century.

 

[Rescars]

Motorail services were long. The package was car, a reserved compartment for the passengers and tray meals. So lots of corridor coaches. And some long slow journies. Then they changed it. The peopll went on normal inter city trains and the cars went on a separate train. Or dragged behind the IC service on the rst coast. Were the motorail vans 100mph capable? Maybe we need a motorail thread?



































































































































































In the late 1960s, early 1970s there were no tray meals, but a real dining car offering first and second sittings of breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea and dinner according to the timings of the train. All quite slow, and lots of diesel smuts on the windscreen at the far end to put the car drivers in a Ihappy frame of mind!



















































































































!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==

In the late 1960s, early 1970s there were no tray meals, but a real dining car offering first and second sittings of breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea and dinner according to the timings of the train. All quite slow, and lots of diesel smuts on the windscreen at the far end to put the car drivers in a happy frame of mind!

Perhaps we do need a Motorail thread. How do we set one up? Help please!

 

[StephenHunter]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==

In the late 1960s, early 1970s there were no tray meals, but a real dining car offering first and second sittings of breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea and dinner according to the timings of the train. All quite slow, and lots of diesel smuts on the windscreen at the far end to put the car drivers in a happy frame of mind!

Perhaps we do need a Motorail thread. How do we set one up? Help please!

Just create a new thread here.

 

[BRX]

Also worth a mention from the 1970s:
The overnight Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness - load 15 between Perth and Inverness
16.30 Sundays Inverness to Glasgow and Edinburgh, for many years the only daytime train from Inverness to these cities, also load 15 Inverness to Perth

That's interesting and has also made me realise that platforms 1 & 2 at Inverness are actually quite unusually long for a relatively small city (possibly they are longer I think than any or most platforms in London termini with the exception of Euston and Waterloo, ignoring Eurostar?)

I recall watching the London sleeper depart from Inverness in the 90s when there were still motorail coaches, the locos and at least some of the motorail coaches would be off the end of the platform.

 

[hexagon789]

That's interesting and has also made me realise that platforms 1 & 2 at Inverness are actually quite unusually long for a relatively small city (possibly they are longer I think than any or most platforms in London termini with the exception of Euston and Waterloo, ignoring Eurostar?)

I recall watching the London sleeper depart from Inverness in the 90s when there were still motorail coaches, the locos and at least some of the motorail coaches would be off the end of the platform.

Platform 1 can take 13 nominal 20m-length (Mk1/2) coaches
Plat. 2 can take 15

So they are indeed fairly long.

 

[CW2]

My longest passenger trains in the UK are all load 17:
2355 Glasgow - Bristol overnight (south of Carstairs after addition of Edinburgh portion), summer 1979 and again 1981
2200 Stranraer - Euston April 1983
2150 Glasgow Central - Euston (I think this was via G&SW) Summer 1982
1930 Inverness - Euston Summer 1982
2025 Inverness - Euston February 1991
2115 Inverness - Euston September 1990
The latter two Inverness services attached the Up Fort William portion at Carstairs.
(At one stage the Stranraer overnight also attached to an up Inverness/Fort William at Carlisle, but I can't remember when).
2330 Glasgow Queen Street - Inverness (north of Perth after attaching Edinburgh portion), January 1986.
2110 Euston - Edinburgh ( - Inverness / Aberdeen / Fort William) November 1992.

I had numerous runs on load 16, as that was the standard WCML sleeper overnight load.
I suspect the longest trains must have been the various Motorail services which ran with a mixture of coaching stock and carflats. The York - Inverness Motorail must be in with a shout.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

That's interesting and has also made me realise that platforms 1 & 2 at Inverness are actually quite unusually long for a relatively small city (possibly they are longer I think than any or most platforms in London termini with the exception of Euston and Waterloo, ignoring Eurostar?)

I recall watching the London sleeper depart from Inverness in the 90s when there were still motorail coaches, the locos and at least some of the motorail coaches would be off the end of the platform.

Platform 1 can take 13 nominal 20m-length (Mk1/2) coaches
Plat. 2 can take 15

So they are indeed fairly long.

The operation with the internal sleeper was to stop on the Rose Street Curve and detach the vans from the rear. The coaches (including sleepers) then drew forward and reversed into the north end platforms whilst the vans were shunted initially into one of the south end platforms, and further shunts then took those for Wick and Thurso round to the north end to attach to the front of the North train, and those for Kyle to attach to the freight (which for some years on certain days (MFSO?) ran as mixed from Dingwall having connected out of the Wick train.
The morning 'mail' (and passenger) from Perth also reversed into the north platforms whilst most trains arriving from the north also took the Rose St curve and reversed into the south end platforms enabling cross platform connections and quick release of the loco.

 

[hexagon789]

The operation with the internal sleeper was to stop on the Rose Street Curve and detach the vans from the rear. The coaches (including sleepers) then drew forward and reversed into the north end platforms whilst the vans were shunted initially into one of the south end platforms, and further shunts then took those for Wick and Thurso round to the north end to attach to the front of the North train, and those for Kyle to attach to the freight (which for some years on certain days (MFSO?) ran as mixed from Dingwall having connected out of the Wick train.
The morning 'mail' (and passenger) from Perth also reversed into the north platforms whilst most trains arriving from the north also took the Rose St curve and reversed into the south end platforms enabling cross platform connections and quick release of the loco.

Operations unthinkable nowadays, but far more interesting.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I suspect the longest trains must have been the various Motorail services which ran with a mixture of coaching stock and carflats. The York - Inverness Motorail must be in with a shout.

From the 73/734 marshalling book, York Inverness (sadly) load 'only' 14, perhaps longer in other years as in this year it conveyed 5 TCVs (also one GUV each from York and Newcastle)
However, also from 73/74:
19.55 MO Kensington to Inverness load 20 (658t) after attachment of RU at Perth - 11 carflats on this one
20.40 Kensington to Perth load 20 SX (644t) and 19 SO (615t) - 10 coaches, 2 cartics (officially assessed as 7 vehicles), 3 carflats (2 SO)
18.50 FX Newton Abbot to Stirling just 15 (509t) MWX but 18 (584t) MWO - 8 coaches 10 carflats (for he MWX load 4 TCV in place of 7 carflats)
20.30 SO dover to Stirling also load 18

 

[181]

Motorail services were long. The package was car, a reserved compartment for the passengers and tray meals. So lots of corridor coaches. And some long slow journies.

At least the car wagons didn't have to fit in platforms. My recollection is that at Kensington the coaches would be in one platform and the wagons in another; on departure the coaches were hauled out of the terminal and then backed onto the wagons before the whole train set off towards the loco change at Willesden Junction. Presumably coaches and wagons were separated for loading/unloading at most other termnals too.

 

[Rescars]

IIRC, 08s were much in evidence to shunt the car flats into appropriate loading docks (including arrivals at Kensington)

 

[AlbertBeale]

Operations unthinkable nowadays, but far more interesting.

Why "unthinkable"? Because these within-Scotland sleepers don't exist; or do you mean that sort of shunting of passenger trains?

 

[Ken H]

Why "unthinkable"? Because these within-Scotland sleepers don't exist; or do you mean that sort of shunting of passenger trains?

Shunting hauled stock with passengers. Still remember the carriages rattling when joining portions. We did a journey to torquay from leeds in the 60's. There was a portion on the platform in leeds city station. A portion came in from Bradford and was shunted on the back. Off we went but at sheffield they put more on the back including a catering vehicle.
Would each portion have needed a brake? 3 half brakes seems a waste.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Presumably coaches and wagons were separated for loading/unloading at most other termnals too.

At Perth the loading was done adjacent to the carriage shed (including double ramps for loading cartics on both decks, Stirling in sidings adjacent to platform 10 - the coaches were in platform 10, Inverness there were sidings with ramps adjacent to platform 1 although I think cars could also be loaded over the buffers in platform 1, Edinburgh the stub ends of the former south end bay platforms 9 & 10 - now re-instated and lengthened well beyond the original length as platforms 5 & 6.

 

[Welshman]

There was once a monster single platform which joined Manchester Victoria and Manchester Exchange, and claimed to be the longest in Europe. Not intended for use by a single giant train though.

The famous "long" platform at Manchester was formed when platform 3 at Exchange station was extended over the River Irwell to meet platform 11 at Victoria, making a platform of 682 metres long.
It was in effect 3 platforms, with crossovers allowing 3 trains to be accommodated simultaneously. Platform 3 was at Exchange, 11 at Victoria and 11 Middle in the "No Man's Land" between!
The platform was useful for the lengthy nightly newspaper trains [when Manchester was a famous printing centre], as vans could draw up right by the side of the train.
During the day time, it was a handy covered walkway between Exchange and Victoria stations. I well remember being rushed along there by parents with heavy suitcases when journeying from Halifax to North Wales and back!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2022 ==

In days gone by, before track circuits, going beyond the starting signal, and drawing up, were common practice, so platform lengths were not a constraint except at termini.

Back in the day, drawing - up at short platforms such as at Lightcliffe or Luddenden Foot was a common practice with long excursions to Blackpool, formed of non-corridor stock. Very time-consuming, and a real bind on the return journey when you were tired and just wanted to get home!

 

[Rescars]

The famous "long" platform at Manchester was formed when platform 3 at Exchange station was extended over the River Irwell to meet platform 11 at Victoria, making a platform of 682 metres long.
It was in effect 3 platforms, with crossovers allowing 3 trains to be accommodated simultaneously. Platform 3 was at Exchange, 11 at Victoria and 11 Middle in the "No Man's Land" between!
The platform was useful for the lengthy nightly newspaper trains [when Manchester was a famous printing centre], as vans could draw up right by the side of the train.
During the day time, it was a handy covered walkway between Exchange and Victoria stations. I well remember being rushed along there by parents with heavy suitcases when journeying from Halifax to North Wales and back!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2022 ==


Back in the day, drawing - up at short platforms such as at Lightcliffe or Luddenden Foot was a common practice with long excursions to Blackpool, formed of non-corridor stock. Very time-consuming, and a real bind on the return journey when you were tired and just wanted to get home!

11 Middle in the "No Man's Land" . Another departure point for Platform 9 3/4?

 

[Ken H]

11 Middle in the "No Man's Land" . Another departure point for Platform 9 3/4?

Was platform 9 7/8 the york road platform at King's Cross

 

[Rescars]

Was platform 9 7/8 the york road platform at King's Cross

Certainly unsuitable for long trains, never mind exceptionally long ones!

 

[hexagon789]

Why "unthinkable"? Because these within-Scotland sleepers don't exist; or do you mean that sort of shunting of passenger trains?

The shunting operations - taking mail vans off one train to add to a local mixed passenger; reversing into a terminus to afford cross-platform interchange those sort of things.

 

[greyman42]

21.20 Newcastle/Sheffield - Newquay/Newton Abbot - 15

Why was there a Newcastle portion and a Sheffield portion when the train from Newcastle goes through Sheffield?

 

[deltic]

Why was there a Newcastle portion and a Sheffield portion when the train from Newcastle goes through Sheffield?

To ensure those getting on at Sheffield had a fair chance of getting a seat or because there was not enough demand beyond Sheffield.

 

[Ken H]

Why was there a Newcastle portion and a Sheffield portion when the train from Newcastle goes through Sheffield?

There must have been a catering depot (staff and coaches) at Sheffield cos leeds NE/SW trains had the catering vehicles added/removed at Sheffield.
Of course that meant the catering vehicles were at the north end of the train, not in the middle, where you would expect them

 

[shap summit]

Trying to remember the make up of the 23:45 Paddington to Penzance via Bristol that we matlots used to catch back to Plymouth and in my case Redruth during the 70's. I remember it had several sleeping cars on the front, lots of compartment stock for us jolly tars, several vans at the rear for mails and newspapers. Then just before departure, the train engine would appear backing down onto the train with a couple of CCT vans with motor cars inside.
The train would then trundle off to Temple meads stopping at several stations on the way. After a long stop at Bristol where I think they changed the loco and loaded many more matlots from various places up north, the train would set off again calling at various places and getting into Plymouth sometime between 6 and 7 am. It would then split and the front portion would continue to PZ dropping the last of us at Redruth at about 9 am. As long as we were on that train no matter how late it became there was always the Pussers buses to take us back to Culdrose.

 

[Magdalia]

I have a source for the 1976 formation of the 2345 departure. It was load 12.

BG, SLC for Exeter
4*SK, BFK, 2*BG for Penzance
3*BG for Plymouth (one of these replaced by an SK on Friday)

The motorail and sleepers were a separate train departing at 0055, the 2*GUV attached at Paddington. Total load 11.

GUV cars for Penzance
GUV cars for Plymouth
BFK, 2*SLC for Plymouth
4*SLC, SK, BFK for Penzance

The following year they were combined into a single train departing at 0005. Presumably it wasn't load 23!

 

[The exile]

Some very long platforms in the west country. Look at Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Rd. What stopped there?

There were trains that came down the bank and took the Rhubarb curve - stopping at Stapleton Road instead of Temple Meads. Not sure whether they then headed south west via St Philips marsh or towards Bath…

 

[shap summit]

Thanks Magdalia, by 1977 I had been drafted to Portland and was using the trains to Weymouth.

 

[Class800]

I remember travelling Euston to Keswick (steam hauled) in the early sixties. The long, long train stopped at Lancaster first for the front portion and then moved forward to enable those in the rear portion to alight.

Interesting way of doing it rather than the modern "Please travel in the first X coaches for the following stations"

 

[30907]

There were trains that came down the bank and took the Rhubarb curve - stopping at Stapleton Road instead of Temple Meads. Not sure whether they then headed south west via St Philips marsh or towards Bath…

Bath - the Cardiff-Brighton was one.

 

[peteb]

Merrymaker excursions up to the mid-80s could produce 12 carriage rakes of MK1 stock, eg: one in 1979 Birmingham to Stirling and one in 1983 Kidderminster to Worthing. Sunday evening services to London from Worcester Shrub Hill 50 hauled regularly produced 11 Mk 1s, occasionally 12, must have been a lot of drawing forwards on the short Cotswold line platforms.

 

[MontyP]

I remember my school in Huddersfield chartered a train a few times in the late 70s /early 80s to take everyone to London for the day. Pretty sure that it was 13 Mk 1s with a 47 up front. Not a record but impressive none the less.