MG11 Issued as Invalid Ticket.

[mg11help]

I have been issued a MG11 today, while exiting Crawley station due to my ticket being claimed invalid. I bought this ticket on my phone via trainline. I used a Jobseeker discount which i held a valid card until feb 6th, upon taking this journey i was not aware it had expired. As this was out of date i know this makes my journey invalid as I've no ticket. I did offer to buy a full priced ticket and was not offered a penalty fine. Just wondered what this MG11 would entitle? I believe they are under the impression i was trying to avoid paying for a ticket. I will get my jobcentre card renewed next week, i understand you should not travel with invalid railcards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2022 ==

Please also can someone let me know if train staff have to rights to obstruct you and put hands on you? I have made a report to southern rail about staff. I have also requested body camera footage from the two rail enforcement officers at the station.

 

[Haywain]

I believe they are under the impression i was trying to avoid paying for a ticket.

It certainly sounds like you were failing to pay the correct fare, and that is an offence.

Please also can someone let me know if train staff have to rights to obstruct you and put hands on you? I have made a report to southern rail about staff. I have also requested body camera footage from the two rail enforcement officers at the station.

That is a separate issue but I wonder why that would have happened. They (railway staff) do have a right to detain you under certain circumstances but are often instructed not to.

 

[AlterEgo]

Please also can someone let me know if train staff have to rights to obstruct you and put hands on you? I have made a report to southern rail about staff. I have also requested body camera footage from the two rail enforcement officers at the station.

They do have the right and as @Haywain says they very rarely do. However they are able to detain you, under certain circumstances, so it would be helpful if you could explain exactly what happened to cause them to do that, as you may be looking at something more serious than a bylaw infringement. Were the police called?

 

[mg11help]

They do have the right and as @Haywain says they very rarely do. However they are able to detain you, under certain circumstances, so it would be helpful if you could explain exactly what happened to cause them to do that, as you may be looking at something more serious than a bylaw infringement. Were the police call

I believe if this was the case, the MG11 witness statement would be more then the questions about did I intend to dodge the fair, which I answered no. I was leaving the station and he put his hands on myself which i understand he has no authority to do so. I understand this is separate but thought id be fully open about the situation. I feel i should have reported this on the spot with the rail enforcement officers or got actual police to file the case. I asked to pay for a full ticket or happy to pay the penalty fare in this situation. I am just asking what I can do? I have no intentions to avoid paying fare, what is the appeal process with this like? The railway enforcement officer said i will get a letter, that wasn't a fine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2022 ==

It certainly sounds like you were failing to pay the correct fare, and that is an offence.

That is a separate issue but I wonder why that would have happened. They (railway staff) do have a right to detain you under certain circumstances but are often instructed not to.

I had a ticket with an expired jobcentre card, which i am due to get renewed next week. I was not aware it had expired and did not plan on avoiding the fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

I believe if this was the case, the MG11 witness statement would be more then the questions about did I intend to dodge the fair, which I answered no. I was leaving the station and he put his hands on myself which i understand he has no authority to do so. I understand this is separate but thought id be fully open about the situation.

What happened after he physically detained you? And why did he do this? There are circumstances where they can legally physically detain you, but it is so rare for it to actually happen it certainly makes people's ears here prick up when they read of an instance.

I asked to pay for a full ticket or happy to pay the penalty fare in this situation.

This was probably not wise, in retrospect; some RPIs consider people who just say "give me a Penalty Fare" or "just sell the the full ticket then" are often people who rinse and repeat fare evasion. That is, they habitually evade the fare and consider an occasional PF or full fare an occupational hazard or the "cost of doing business".

I am just asking what I can do? I have no intentions to avoid paying fare, what is the appeal process with this like? The railway enforcement officer said i will get a letter, that wasn't a fine.

It depends on what they write to you with, but they will likely ask for your version of events with the view to forming a case to prosecuting you in the magistrates' court for one of a number of ticketing offences. They could go for a bylaw prosecution which simply means "you were unable to present a ticket" or they could go for a Regulation of Railways Act offence which usually requires intent to actually evade the fare to be shown. What they decide do to will depend on what evidence is available to them.

 

[mg11help]

It depends on what they write to you with, but they will likely ask for your version of events with the view to forming a case to prosecuting you in the magistrates' court for one of a number of ticketing offences. They could go for a bylaw prosecution which simply means "you were unable to present a ticket" or they could go for a Regulation of Railways Act offence which usually requires intent to actually evade the fare to be shown. What they decide do to will depend on what evidence is available to them.

Unsure how having no prior cases, a valid reason to be using a job centre card, which was expired as they last only 3 months? How would I intent to evade when having a valid ticket to travel? Surely having no ticket this would be the case. I had a ticket which was valid and bought.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2022 ==

What happened after he physically detained you? And why did he do this? There are circumstances where they can legally physically detain you, but it is so rare for it to actually happen it certainly makes people's ears here prick up when they read of an instance.

He has 0 authority or is allowed to use any force on any human or use the actions he did. I have a subject access request on the footage. Im not sure why the Railway Enforcement officer allowed that action to happen, i honestly don't trust them to uphold the law but understand they can use that sort of power. Southern rail railway staff dont.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unsure how having no prior cases, a valid reason to be using a job centre card, which was expired as they last only 3 months? How would I intent to evade when having a valid ticket to travel? Surely having no ticket this would be the case. I had a ticket which was valid and bought.

Unfortunately you did not have a valid ticket - because you were not entitled to the discount as you were unable to show the JobCentre Plus card - and so a bylaw offence is complete. No intent is required.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Why did he put hands on you exactly? Was it to prevent you from leaving etc were you trying to walk off without giving details etc?

What exactly was the sequence of events that caused him to put hands on you?

Also you said you bought on trainline, is there other tickets bought between the expiry of the job centre card and today's date that would also have the discount applied

 

[skyhigh]

He has 0 authority or is allowed to use any force on any human or use the actions he did. I have a subject access request on the footage. Im not sure why the Railway Enforcement officer allowed that action to happen, i honestly don't trust them to uphold the law but understand they can use that sort of power. Southern rail railway staff dont.

Okay, so there were 2x rail enforcement officers there with bodycams on, and someone felt the need to put hands on you.

That is unusual. Did you ignore them asking for your details, or something else?

 

[RJ]

To the OP, I suggest you contact a solicitor.

You didn’t have a valid ticket, so you committed an offence. With respect to physical contact, you need to make sure you handle this properly if you want it to be taken seriously. Don’t waste time seeking advice on a forum, talking to the police or complaining to the TOC because you won’t get anywhere.

Make sure you’re honest when you seek legal advice and decide if it’s really worth your time pursuing. If they had a legal right to detain you and blocked you trying to leave it might not be worth it.

 

[mg11help]

To the OP, I suggest you contact a solicitor.

You didn’t have a valid ticket, so you committed an offence. With respect to physical contact, you need to make sure you handle this properly if you want it to be taken seriously. Don’t waste time seeking advice on a forum, talking to the police or complaining to the TOC because you won’t get anywhere.

Make sure you’re honest when you seek legal advice and decide if it’s really worth your time pursuing. If they had a legal right to detain you and blocked you trying to leave it might not be worth it.

Ok, I understand about the offence. I travelled between two stations with a expired railcard. So this makes the ticket invalid. I was just wondered what would happen with the MG11 and what that intends to be? I gave my correct details. Do they check this on the spot? The Staff member was in disbelief like I was giving false details. I just wondered why I was not asked to pay a full fare as it was a mistake on my behalf not checking expiry or penalty fare which I assumed was the case. The Rail Enforcement lady who took my details claimed this was not a fine i would receive in the post.

 

[Bertie the bus]

As you refuse to answer why the ticket inspector put their hands on you nobody can really say why you weren’t issued a Penalty Fare as you won’t tell the whole story of what happened. Suffice it to say issuing a Penalty Fare is at their discretion. You do not have a right to be issued one and if they decide to go down the prosecution route that is their prerogative.

 

[MotCO]

I gave my correct details. Do they check this on the spot? The Staff member was in disbelief like I was giving false details.

Were you asked, and did you provide any confirmation of your address, such as a driving licence?

I'm also surprised about the physical contact. Was the discussion you had with the train staff amicable (or as amicable as can be given the circumstances), or did you fail what is commonly referred to on this forum as the 'attitude test'?

 

[mg11help]

Were you asked, and did you provide any confirmation of your address, such as a driving licence?

I'm also surprised about the physical contact. Was the discussion you had with the train staff amicable (or as amicable as can be given the circumstances), or did you fail what is commonly referred to on this forum as the 'attitude test'?

I had my ticket scanned, then it beeped as a check for railcard. I proceeded to take this out my bag and then showed him without knowing it was expired. I felt the altercation could have been avoided did not warrant his actions, but I understand the level of staff placed there on station barriers. This was normal station staff, not rail enforcement. I had a amicable conversation with Rail Enforcement Officer and obviously complied with correct details with no hesitation. I am just wondering, What can i expect to happen from being issue a MG11? I understand this is a generic thing used by police and Rail Enforcement.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I am just wondering, What can i expect to happen from being issue a MG11?

Most likely, some time in the next six months, the railway will write to you. The letter may talk a lot about your case having been provisionally authorised for prosecution, but (again, most likely) it will be asking for your side of the story. This will be an opportunity for you to explain what happened, and ask if it is possible to settle the matter out of court. When you get that letter, there are people who can make useful suggestions about how best to tell the railway what happened.

As I say, that’s the most likely course of events. It’s also possible that the railway will decide not to take any further action (not quite such a good result as it might sound, as you only know they won’t do anything after six months or so when they haven’t been in touch, so you still have six months of worry) or they could go straight to court. But a letter that you can respond to is the normal way forward.

(Edited to correct typos)

 

[Snow1964]

I had a ticket with an expired jobcentre card, which i am due to get renewed next week. I was not aware it had expired and did not plan on avoiding the fare.

Why would railcard be due to be renewed next week, as opposed to be due to be renewed upon expiry of existing card.

Something doesn’t seem Logical to me with this statement.

If your ticket shows a purchase date before the card expiry, then that could be seen as a mitigating factor, if a renewal had been applied for (but the card not received) especially as post is taking 2 weeks to arrive in some local areas, that could also be seen as mitigating. But technically without the valid railcard your ticket wasn’t valid so is same as travelling without a ticket.

 

[Haywain]

Why would railcard be due to be renewed next week, as opposed to be due to be renewed upon expiry of existing card.

I don’t believe there is any ‘automatic’ renewal of the Job Centre Plus railcard, rather it is discretionary.

 

[island]

He has 0 authority or is allowed to use any force on any human or use the actions he did.

This is not correct. Under section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, an officer of the railway has authority to temporarily detain passengers suspected of ticketing violations. There are also a range of powers at common law, not least the right to self-defence if the officer reasonably believed you were about to commit an assault.

In any event, there are, as they say, three sides to the story – your side, the railway's side, and what really happened.

It's fairly common on this subforum for people caught having committed a ticketing violation to cite rudeness or other inappropriate behaviour on the part of the officer of the railway. I am not quite sure why this is – perhaps it is human nature to think "well I broke the rules but he also broke the rules so it should 'cancel out'". It doesn't work this way – "muddying the waters" by alleging misconduct by the officer doesn't absolve you. In most cases on calm reflection you will realise that the officer was not rude or unreasonable, merely telling you something you didn't want to hear.

 

[Gloster]

Is it possible that an RPI may become rather formal when dealing with an irregularity, so as to make it quite clear that an offence has been committed and fully explain the situation, particularly if the passenger is being unhelpful or obtuse (whether deliberately or not)? This could be seen as being rude and unsympathetic by the passenger, even if they have merely made an honest mistake, when it is in fact an attempt to help the passenger by bringing clarity.

(I will refrain from adding,”Tch, the young of today...”)

 

[WesternLancer]

I guess the thing to think about here was if there was any point where you were being spoken to about your ticket, (eg when you were informed that it was invalid due to a mistake on your part) that you did, or appeared to look like you were going to, walk away from the discussion before it had concluded.

 

[AlterEgo]

I had my ticket scanned, then it beeped as a check for railcard. I proceeded to take this out my bag and then showed him without knowing it was expired. I felt the altercation could have been avoided did not warrant his actions, but I understand the level of staff placed there on station barriers. This was normal station staff, not rail enforcement. I had a amicable conversation with Rail Enforcement Officer and obviously complied with correct details with no hesitation. I am just wondering, What can i expect to happen from being issue a MG11? I understand this is a generic thing used by police and Rail Enforcement.

Post 5 explains what will most likely happen next.

 

[mg11help]

I don’t believe there is any ‘automatic’ renewal of the Job Centre Plus railcard, rather it is discretionary.

It can only be issued at a centre.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2022 ==

Most likely, some time in the next six months, the railway will write to you. The letter may talk a lot about your case having been provisionally authorised for prosecution, but (again, most likely) it will be asking for your side of the story. This will be an opportunity for you to explain what happened, and ask if it is possible to settle the matter out of court. When you get that letter, there are people who can make useful suggestions about how best to tell the railway what happened.

As I say, that’s the most likely course of events. It’s also possible that the railway will decide not to take any further action (not quite such a good result as it might sound, as you only know they won’t do anything after six months or so when they haven’t been in touch, so you still have six months of worry) or they could go straight to court. But a letter that you can respond to is the normal way forward.

(Edited to correct typos)

That is what I assumed. Its not a card I regularly check and I understand what the conditions are traveling without correct tickets. I am also happy to pay to settle out of court, I assume that's the best case? I am also claiming Universal Credit a do warrant having the discount. I have booked a meeting to get this renewed with a new date and will travel at full fare until I have it.

 

[WesternLancer]

It can only be issued at a centre.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2022 ==



That is what I assumed. Its not a card I regularly check and I understand what the conditions are traveling without correct tickets. I am also happy to pay to settle out of court, I assume that's the best case? I am also claiming Universal Credit a do warrant having the discount. I have booked a meeting to get this renewed with a new date and will travel at full fare until I have it.

There may be a chance if you press the case in the reply to any letter you are sent to ask for extra leniency in the hope that they may agree to waive the usual 'admin fee' to settle in the light of your low income as a job seeker, which is proven by your previous and on going card entitlement.

Tho I suspect if there was any kind of altercation with staff at the time it reduces the chance of that additional leeway being offered, but you could ask.

Maybe when you get the CCTV you have asked for show it to a trusted friend and ask them to step back and think if the behavior on your part and on the staff's part was 'reasonable' or not. But my hunch would be not to pursue this if you are seeking to get a settlement, unless that staff handling of you was so severe that this is a compromise you would not wish to make - eg if they assaulted you / you suffered injury.

Good luck with resolving what was, to my mind, a simple mistake on your part.

 

[Stigy]

This is not correct. Under section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, an officer of the railway has authority to temporarily detain passengers suspected of ticketing violations. There are also a range of powers at common law, not least the right to self-defence if the officer reasonably believed you were about to commit an assault.

Worth adding that this is of course very specific, and only becomes applicable if a person doesn't hold a valid ticket, and subsequently refuses to supply their name and/or address when asked by an officer or servant of the railway. Obviously if someone tries to just walk off, that equates to refusing to give a name or address anyway.

 

[Wethebest838]

It's fairly common on this subforum for people caught having committed a ticketing violation to cite rudeness or other inappropriate behaviour on the part of the officer of the railway. I am not quite sure why this is – perhaps it is human nature to think "well I broke the rules but he also broke the rules so it should 'cancel out'". It doesn't work this way – "muddying the waters" by alleging misconduct by the officer doesn't absolve you. In most cases on calm reflection you will realise that the officer was not rude or unreasonable, merely telling you something you didn't want to hear.

Yeah, I’ve never got that. Why being defensive and rude back do people think it’ll make the situation ‘better’ in a way? It makes it so much worse.

Be respectful as they are doing their job. Granted they have no right to be rude to the evader I get that but treat them how you wanna be treated.