suggestion to make a compulsory surcharge for paper ticket if e-ticket is available

[miklcct]

As paper ticket is so archaic that the industry wants to move away from it, I have a suggestion to speed up the process, that if an e-ticket is available for the flow, a compulsory £1 paper ticket surcharge should be charged if the ticket is bought from a ticket machine, collected from a ticket machine, bought from the office or on train (applicable to origin stations without ticketing facilities as well).

In return, the operator where the ticket is collected will receive that £1 fee, such that net of the fee the revenue distribution will be equal with both paper ticket and e-ticket. However, to penalise operators who don't accept e-tickets, if a flow doesn't provide e-tickets, no surcharge is chargeable to the customer but instead, £1 in total will be charged from each of the operator who refuses to accept e-tickets (TfL I'm looking at you). For example, if a £30 ticket involving travel on SWR, London Underground and southeastern (where the latter two don't accept e-tickets) is bought and the ticket bought or collected from a GWR station, London Underground and southeastern will lose £0.50 each to GWR before they get the share of the £30 ticket price (which is, in effect, they pay for the paper ticket surcharge instead of customer pays).

By charging such fee, customers are motivated to avoid paper tickets if possible, and operators who refuse to accept e-ticket are penalised as well. I believe this suggestion can reduce the use of paper to reduce environment damage.

 

[The Planner]

The pound you make wouldn't cover the money you would lose and alienate a fair chunk of users.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe Nederlandse Spoorwegen did this for ticket office purchases.

 

[HST274]

I have to disagree based on the fact that there is a minority unable to pay on their phone. Whether that is because people don't have a card for whatever reason, or don't have their card details on their phone, or they are young children with no phone or anyone with a very old fashioned phone (which some do carry). It could be other reasons- your phone might run out of battery and people are scared to take that risk OR perhaps normally get an e-ticket but can't because they have no battery. Or perhaps you have no data or wifi to buy a ticket. This is a minority, but large enough that 'innocent' people (aka people who have no other choice) are hit by it. £1 isn't a lot, but then it could be argued it wouldn't change people's minds as well.

 

[alistairlees]

There's no need to bother with this sort of thing any more. Everywhere (and every route / ticket type) is moving to eTickets anyway, by the end of next year. The only thing remaining to be decided is crossing London. It would be expensive to administer and audit too!

Once that's done then ToD and CCST tickets will be toast. People will still be able to buy PRT tickets (with a barcode) from TVMs and station ticket offices (and on board, occasionally).

 

[John Luxton]

I am very much into tech and have been since I bought a BBC Micro computer in the early 1980s.

I like buying tickets on line but I always print them out would just not rely on the phone.

Call me traditional but I like it that way.

 

[Kite159]

A good way to annoy those passengers who don't have a Smartphone...

 

[John Luxton]

A good way to annoy those passengers who don't have a Smartphone...

Why do you want to annoy them?

Not everyone wants a smart phone or even a mobile. A former colleague of mine has never owned a mobile phone.

Sees no need for one and when you think about it whilst they are convenient we did successfully live without mobiles until they really took off in popularity 30 years ago.

 

[Bevan Price]

Lack of paper / card tickets would probably drive me away from rail travel. Whilst I have a basic smartphone, its battery cannot be relied upon to last for a full day's travelling, and I have chosen not to allow it to have any of my card / bank details. And I see no need to waste money to buy the latest model when the current phone does all that I need.
Rail managers need to realise that the railways exist for the convenience of passengers, not vice versa.

 

[Gloster]

I have a very basic mobile ‘phone and have no idea whether it is possible to buy things on it: any such transaction is almost certainly beyond my technical competence. I don’t like relying on card transactions due to problems in the past when, due to others’ errors, there hasn’t been as much money in my account as I expect: with cash you physically have it (or not). Why should I have to pay extra to use the country’s basic legal tender?

And how much paper would you save? Paper is, at least, a renewable resource, while the extra power used for all the transactions and checking (I presume that extra power would be needed) may not be.

 

[alistairlees]

Lack of paper / card tickets would probably drive me away from rail travel. Whilst I have a basic smartphone, its battery cannot be relied upon to last for a full day's travelling, and I have chosen not to allow it to have any of my card / bank details. And I see no need to waste money to buy the latest model when the current phone does all that I need.
Rail managers need to realise that the railways exist for the convenience of passengers, not vice versa.

Just buy a ticket from a station. They will be on paper.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2022 ==

A good way to annoy those passengers who don't have a Smartphone...

There is no requirement to have a phone of any type to buy tickets from a station, which you will still be able to do.

 

[dakta]

so if you don't really trust your phone battery not to die you should pay a bit more for assurance that you won't have to have to fend of revenue protection basically

I suppose it's another way of rending people they're using the railways just from what they're paying.

 

[XAM2175]

I believe Nederlandse Spoorwegen did this for ticket office purchases.

NS (and most, if not all, other Dutch operators) levy a €1 surcharge for issuing a ticket on a disposable OV-chipkaart - might that be what you're remembering?

 

[Nym]

So what we have, is an idea to charge the poor more for services they need, again...?
(See also, pre-pay utility meters, 'unhealthy food taxes', payday loans, high interest sale loans, etc etc etc.)

The privileged and fortunate who have access to and the ability to use smart devices have access to this discount (or lack of additional charge) where those unable or unwilling to, do not.

 

[AM9]

So what we have, is an idea to charge the poor more for services they need, again...?
(See also, pre-pay utility meters, 'unhealthy food taxes', payday loans, high interest sale loans, etc etc etc.)

The privileged and fortunate who have access to and the ability to use smart devices have access to this discount (or lack of additional charge) where those unable or unwilling to, do not.

I agree with your post except for 'unhealthy food taxes' which is not a moneymaking exercise and designed to wean people off such products for the benefit of their health. But that is for a different thread.
The problem I have is that the removal of basic ticket media is being advocated by those that like them for their own personal use. Even though I have online facilities and an adequate mobile (not sure about NFC), I have no wish to make such assets and the ability to use them a condition of using a public transport system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

NS (and most, if not all, other Dutch operators) levy a €1 surcharge for issuing a ticket on a disposable OV-chipkaart - might that be what you're remembering?

No. Before OV Chipkaarten were even a thing, they charged EUR1 for using a ticket office if the ticket could be obtained by another means e.g. a TVM.

 

[yorkie]

.... Everywhere (and every route / ticket type) is moving to eTickets anyway, by the end of next year. The only thing remaining to be decided is crossing London....

I bet Merseyrail, London Overground, ScotRail and TfW really dragged their heels on this one! Well done to whoever convinced them. I can't believe they did so willingly!

I am very much into tech and have been since I bought a BBC Micro computer in the early 1980s.

I like buying tickets on line but I always print them out would just not rely on the phone.

Call me traditional but I like it that way.

e-tickets absolutely can be printed.

 

[yorksrob]

It's a terrible idea. All relying on people having access to technology. I wouldn't put it past the treasury forcing it though.

 

[yorkie]

It's a terrible idea. All relying on people having access to technology. I wouldn't put it past the treasury forcing it though.

The idea posted here won't happen

But e-tickets are going to take over; you will be able to pay for them in cash and obtain a printed copy, or buy them online and print them yourself, or store them on any device.

The criticism I would have is that it would be a shame not to offer the ability for such fares bought online to be printed from a TVM. Also a minor point but this should arguably be on credit card size stock rather than the annoying till roll format.

 

[yorksrob]

The idea posted here won't happen

But e-tickets are going to take over; you will be able to pay for them in cash and obtain a printed copy, or buy them online and print them yourself, or store them on any device.

The criticism I would have is that it would be a shame not to offer the ability for such fares bought online to be printed from a TVM. Also a minor point but this should arguably be on credit card size stock rather than the annoying till roll format.

Indeed. I must be one of many people who has most of the computer paraphernalia, but who has no intention of running a printer !

 

[AM9]

Indeed. I must be one of many people who has most of the computer paraphernalia, but who has no intention of running a printer !

Of course there is a different imperative in London, - the reluctance of TfL to provide any optical reading devices on gatelines poses a significant barrier. It wouldn't be so much a problem on Merseyrail-sized operations where through travel opportunities are very limited, but Inter-city via london is almost mandatory on many long-distance journeys. And the volumes are not insignificant.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course there is a different imperative in London, - the reluctance of TfL to provide any optical reading devices on gatelines poses a significant barrier. It wouldn't be so much a problem on Merseyrail-sized operations where through travel opportunities are very limited, but Inter-city via london is almost mandatory on many long-distance journeys. And the volumes are not insignificant.

Many cross-London journeys on advance fares are now cheaper to break up into separate journeys. PAYG is coming for the shorter distance journeys. Optical reading of barcodes is quite slow. TfL can almost certainly resist the installation of optical reading devices as the number of cross-London tickets sold is likely to diminish.

 

[Non Multi]

The industry isn't moving away from paper tickets. Many operators have moved away as much as possible from the costlier magnetic stripe style ticket, and that's pretty much it.

-----------------

I'll add my anecdote of what I saw a few days ago at my TfL managed station. Whilst the member of staff for the gateline was occupied with loading a baby buggy onto a 345, a middle-aged lady with an e-ticket on her phone was left patiently waiting on the wrong side of the ticket gates because there are no optical readers (it's a 5 second walk to the train). By the time they returned to open the gate for her, the train driver had just closed the doors and you could hear very loud wails of despair as the lady realised she'd just missed her train. The next one would be another half hour away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll add my anecdote of what I saw a few days ago at my TfL managed station. Whilst the member of staff for the gateline was occupied with loading a baby buggy onto a 345, a middle-aged lady with an e-ticket on her phone was left patiently waiting on the wrong side of the ticket gates because there are no optical readers (it's a 5 second walk to the train). By the time they returned to open the gate for her, the train driver had just closed the doors and you could hear very loud wails of despair as the lady realised she'd just missed her train. The next one would be another half hour away.

Make a complaint. For safety (fire) reasons, gatelines MUST be supervised at all times when in operation. If stepping away, even for a moment, they must be left open. This is to me a breach.

 

[Lucan]

or anyone with a very old fashioned phone (which some do carry)

They are not old fashioned, the type you are referring to are manufactured today as another option. As it happens I have just bought a new one this week. The proper term is "Feature phone" - goodness knows why as they are less featured than smartphones. I do have a smartphone but I don't wish to carry it unneccessarily, my £20 feature phone is good enough to make or receive a call on most occasions when I am out, and is not such an expense if it is lost or stolen.

I could easily affor a £1 surcharge for a paper ticket but I would avoid travel by train on principle if I had to pay it. There is no good reason for it. There are plenty of far more effective ways of saving the planet if that is the aim, getting people to use trains instead of cars for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are not old fashioned, the type you are referring to are manufactured today as another option. As it happens I have just bought a new one this week. The proper term is "Feature phone"

The three categories are "dumbphone" (only makes phone calls and sends/receives texts, and maybe a basic game like Snake, typically low resolution monochrome display), "featurephone" (does a bit more, some can have apps though they probably don't get much development these days, has things like diary features and maybe a very basic Web browser like my old Motorola did, typically buttons rather than touchscreen and colour display) and "smartphone" (basically a small computer that happens to be able to make phone calls).

Most "featurephones" would likely be able to show a PDF format e-ticket, though it would depend on the phone as to whether the screen was good enough for it to scan properly.

There are hardly any remaining new dumbphones because adding the software for a featurephone on the same hardware costs next to nothing.

 

[Irascible]

My circa 2011 phone ( with alternate OS ) is not really compatible with new apps - if I had to fork out for a new phone to buy tickets I'd just not buy the tickets. A surcharge that small is likely to cost more in admin as a seperate process you'd get ( this is a problem we have in many administrative systems these days ).

 

[Bletchleyite]

My circa 2011 phone ( with alternate OS ) is not really compatible with new apps - if I had to fork out for a new phone to buy tickets I'd just not buy the tickets. A surcharge that small is likely to cost more in admin as a seperate process you'd get ( this is a problem we have in many administrative systems these days ).

You don't need an app to buy an e-ticket. You can buy it on your computer and put it on your phone as a PDF. PDF hasn't changed substantially in years; a 2011 vintage PDF reader will view an e-ticket.

 

[cactustwirly]

Many cross-London journeys on advance fares are now cheaper to break up into separate journeys. PAYG is coming for the shorter distance journeys. Optical reading of barcodes is quite slow. TfL can almost certainly resist the installation of optical reading devices as the number of cross-London tickets sold is likely to diminish.

So it cheaper to split up a journey like Reading to York for example.
If you are traveling on a 10am train from Kings Cross, the fare from Reading into London Will be more than the advance from Kings Cross

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2022 ==

There is no excuse for TfL not to install e readers at it's NR stations.
I turned up at West Drayton with an e ticket, and got very funny looks at the gateline. No e readers either

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no excuse for TfL not to install e readers at it's NR stations.
I turned up at West Drayton with an e ticket, and got very funny looks at the gateline. No e readers either

It really needs to be mandatory that if you sell or accept Rail Settlement Plan tickets either on your trains or from any train calling at your station that you must have barcode readers on any gatelines and accept e-tickets. Merseyrail need a boot on it, too.