How do you enforce pick up and set down only?

[PTR 444]

There are several services which operate a pick up or set down only policy at certain stations, usually to discourage short journeys on long-distance routes that would otherwise take up significant capacity on the train. The big question is how is it actually enforced?

I have been on several trains from London Waterloo which stopped at Clapham Junction to pick up only. In these cases, information displays at Waterloo station and on the train did not advertise that the train was calling at CLJ, but there is nothing to stop a savvy passenger boarding that train and getting off at the pick-up only station. Likewise, a passenger with good knowledge of the network could board a train to Waterloo at CLJ calling to set down only.

Are there any other ways in which boarding at set down only stations and vice versa are discouraged, or is it generally up to the passenger to work out through absence of information?

 

[The exile]

If the platform used has its own gate line it is of course relatively easy to ensure that people do at least have a valid ticket for an advertised journey, which is the basically the actual issue. Physically preventing people getting off at a station where the doors are unlocked would probably run foul of the law!

 

[Kite159]

Is there any SWR trains labelled as Set Down only anymore at Clapham Junction? (Other than maybe the last train to London in the early hours of the morning).

 

[Nottingham59]

This is how Avanti do it at Watford Junction:

Avanti West Coast gave me a £142.10 fine.

Dear sirs. I am wondering if anyone can help with this matter. About two weeks ago or so towards the beginning of the month i travelled from London Euston to Watford Junction in the morning and then went back again in the evening. I had purchased a Anytime Return ticket for £19.10 total. My...

www.railforums.co.uk

Dear sirs.

I am wondering if anyone can help with this matter.

About two weeks ago or so towards the beginning of the month i travelled from London Euston to Watford Junction in the morning and then went back again in the evening. I had purchased a Anytime Return ticket for £19.10 total. My journey there on London North Eastern Railway was fine with no problems at all but my journey back was extremely problematic.

So i went in to the station and as i was going through i asked the barrier man what platform i need for the train to London Euston and he told me i needed platform 7 so that is where i went. I can not remember the exact time but i think it was at about 18:30 or 18:45 or 19:00 or at some time around then. I got to platform 7 and just a few minutes later an Arriva West Coast train arrived and i boarded it and took a seat.

About a minute or two after leaving the ticket man came through and went straight to me ignoring everyone else and asked to see my ticket and then told me he saw me boarding the train and that i was not allowed to board the train at Watford Junction as the train did not stop for passengers to get on. He said something about how i was supposed to wait for the second train. I am still confused what he meant by this as surely in that case the doors should have remained locked and not been released. Plus i saw other people alighting from the train. So why did the train stop if you were not supposed to board. Surely at a red signal the doors are supposed to be locked. Plus there was no announcement telling people not to board on the platform.

But anyway he then told me since i was not suppose to board the train my ticket is not valid and i have to pay £142.10 because of this. I thought he was joking when he mentioned that price. I initially refused and politely told him i had done nothing wrong as i just went to the platform that the barrier man told me to go to and got on the train. So i refused to pay. But he then got rather angry and threatened he was going to get the police to meet the train at London Euston if i did not pay and told me if the police get involved i could get a criminal record for fare evasion.

So eventually i gave in and paid the £142.10 fine. He then printed a ticket which i presume is my receipt and gave it to me and left me alone and we shortly arrived in to London Euston where i alighted. When i got home and looked at the ticket that he gave to me i am even more confused as it is a ticket from Crewe to London Euston but i never went to Crewe or anywhere near there. I had thought the £142.10 was my fine so i do not know why he printed me a ticket from Crewe to London Euston instead of a receipt for my fine. I am wondering if he accidentally printed a ticket instead of a receipt.

So i have a few questions.

Firstly what exactly did i do wrong and what did the ticket man mean when he said i was not allowed to board the train?

Secondly what on earth does that ticket from Crewe to London Euston have to do with this seeing as i went nowhere near?

Thirdly and most importantly did i actually do something wrong here and my £19.10 Anytime Return was not valid and i should not have boarded the train or was the ticket man wrong and i can get that £142.10 refunded?

Obviously £142.10 is a huge amount of money and i work on a low wage job so i am really not happy with this and if there is any way to get it refunded from Arriva West Coast that would be great to know.

Please advise the best way to proceed with either getting a refund or making a complaint about my fine.

Thank you for any help you can give.

 

[jfollows]

You don't enforce it, and you don't even attempt to, is my take on this.
With the exception of a couple of places where there's a specific ticket check for a specific train, such as at Euston, which can enforce this for Watford Juntion and Milton Keynes if it wants to.
Otherwise it's sufficient that the lack of announcements (for a pick up only stop) will reduce passenger numbers enough anyway.
Or it's a silly restriction; in the 1970s I went home to Macclesfield on the 17:12 Manchester-Euston which was probably the busiest service of the day in that direction in terms of passengers getting off at Macclesfield for a stop which was supposedly "pick up only". This was something eventually dropped from the timetable because the reality at the time was there were little need for it anyway.
Set down only is different, because it allows trains to leave early if they arrive early, and that was much more possible in the past that today anyway, but clearly has always made sense at Watford going into London. If someone gets on there, it's kind of 'so what?', however in the case of Watford-Euston it also bypasses an arrival ticket check, so there's more reason for enforcing this specific case.

EDIT And the case referred to by Nottingham59 is clearly silly, the person had a ticket, so no big deal, a helpful explanation and a warning should have been appropriate in the case I'm sure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some traincrew have been known to sell longer distance tickets on the basis that a shorter distance one isn't valid, but this is somewhat questionable (though I seem to recall that the new NRCoT is closer to supporting this than it was previously).

At Euston, it's by way of manual boarding checks.

At Watford, the guard will bark at you.

But very often you don't need anything at all, because the point of it is mostly to reduce crowding. Most people will, if told not to board a train, not board it, and if the board says it doesn't stop at their station will believe it. That's enough to make it effective; the odd one may feel unfair but in terms of achieving the aim doesn't matter.

It's also sometimes used to allow trains to depart early from the last station before a terminus, typically Stockport but I'm sure it's been used elsewhere. If it's for this purpose, it genuinely doesn't matter if someone boards it, it's only there so early running is acceptable.

 

[jfollows]

It's also sometimes used to allow trains to depart early from the last station before a terminus, typically Stockport but I'm sure it's been used elsewhere. If it's for this purpose, it genuinely doesn't matter if someone boards it, it's only there so early running is acceptable.

I think we had this discussion on a different thread, but I don't think Stockport has been "set down only" for many years because of ORCATS and the increase in revenue to the long-distance operator which picking up passengers there feeds through. However I believe it's "normal practice" to dispatch down expresses at Stockport early if they happen to be running early, on the basis that there's usually a lot of other trains which serve Manchester Piccadilly, so although technically wrong nowadays I don't see a huge problem. Personally, for tidyness, I'd like to see the "set down only" for express trains reinstated there, and perhaps if the ORCATS complications don't apply they will be?

 

[dk1]

I once had a Virgin Trains TM shouting “no you cannot board this service, it’s set down only” on a Holyhead Voyager at Lichfield Trent Valley. When I waved my BR boxes staff card he changed completely shouting “no worries, jump aboard”

It’s not an easy thing to control & many must take the risk for a faster train out of London to say Watford Junction.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It’s not an easy thing to control & many must take the risk for a faster train out of London to say Watford Junction.

And run the risk of the "fast train" not actually calling at Watford Junction, and the next station stop being maybe Milton Keynes, Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent or similar.

 

[dk1]

And run the risk of the "fast train" not actually calling at Watford Junction, and the next station stop being maybe Milton Keynes, Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent or similar.

Of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I once had a Virgin Trains TM shouting “no you cannot board this service, it’s set down only” on a Holyhead Voyager at Lichfield Trent Valley. When I waved my BR boxes staff card he changed completely shouting “no worries, jump aboard”

It’s not an easy thing to control & many must take the risk for a faster train out of London to say Watford Junction.

It's very well established there and I can confirm that hardly anyone does, particularly as there are plenty of fast LNR trains.

When MKC was pick up only northbound in the peaks (I think it isn't at the moment) typically 10-20 would, but that didn't cause a problem in the way cramming it full and standing would. A bit unfair that the inconsiderate people "won" there, but on a "macro" level it was working.

 

[Jim the Jim]

This is how Avanti do it at Watford Junction:

Avanti West Coast gave me a £142.10 fine.

Dear sirs. I am wondering if anyone can help with this matter. About two weeks ago or so towards the beginning of the month i travelled from London Euston to Watford Junction in the morning and then went back again in the evening. I had purchased a Anytime Return ticket for £19.10 total. My...

www.railforums.co.uk

I immediately thought of this as well. It seems to me that this sort of thing doesn't actually need "enforcement" in general. Signs and announcements are perfectly sufficient to keep the vast majority of people from boarding such trains, and a few people disobeying or not noticing them doesn't make a big difference to anybody. If guards spot a regular offender then maybe something could be done about it in that instance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I immediately thought of this as well. It seems to me that this sort of thing doesn't actually need "enforcement" in general. Signs and announcements are perfectly sufficient to keep the vast majority of people from boarding such trains, and a few people disobeying or not noticing them doesn't make a big difference to anybody. If guards spot a regular offender then maybe something could be done about it in that instance.

I'm slightly surprised the Penalty Fares rules don't allow one to be charged in this case (or in similar cases like boarding a compulsory reservation train without a reservation) but it's questionable whether they actually do, and it may be that no TOC that does it operates PFs, as there aren't many instances of it.

 

[TheEdge]

I know in cases of severe overcrowding, at least pre-Covid, of West Country services for GWR to pull the Pick Up Only Reading stop from services.

Cue the complaints at Didcot/Oxford/Taunton that their train didn't stop at Reading, only to be told they shouldn't be boarding it and they'd better get on a train back at their own cost.

 

[jfollows]

And run the risk of the "fast train" not actually calling at Watford Junction, and the next station stop being maybe Milton Keynes, Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent or similar.

In the past, pre-Pendolino, I suffered from this: I used to go home on a Euston departure which was first stop Wilmslow. For some reason some other passengers were being seen off by family/friends who stayed on board because "all trains stop at Watford Junction". I only suffered because the guard/train manager took pity on them and arranged a special stop at Rugby to drop them off, which of course delayed the train.
Hopefully nowadays people don't make the same mistake given that far fewer trains call at Watford Junction. Even back then, there weren't that many calls.
I also heard when my sister went home from school on the 16:23 Manchester-Coventry which was pick up only at Macclesfield, but was diverted via Crewe. She was probably only 11 and she was just directed to a Crewe-Stoke service to change for a service back to Macclesfield, no harm done in the end, although I don't know how my my parents knew - she probably called them from a phone box at Crewe to explain her delay!

 

[SeanG]

A few years ago I had been delayed south of Crewe and had to change at Crewe to get back to Wigan for my last train home.
I would have missed the last connection home if I was unable to board a set down only northbound train at Crewe, so after a friendly word with station staff and the guard I was let aboard.

 

[seagull]

I recall a CrossCountry service years ago which on departure from Birmingham New Street was pick-up only at Wolverhampton and next stop either Stoke or Crewe, I forget now.
The service got gradually busier with commuters "wising up" to the Wolverhampton stop and using it to leave the train there...

... until a day when after leaving Birmingham New Street it got diverted via Bescot and Wednesfield to Bushbury, missing Wolverhampton altogether.

Strangely enough, for a while after that the train was much quieter again from Birmingham. No enforcement needed.

 

[jfollows]

I recall a CrossCountry service years ago which on departure from Birmingham New Street was pick-up only at Wolverhampton and next stop either Stoke or Crewe, I forget now.
The service got gradually busier with commuters "wising up" to the Wolverhampton stop and using it to leave the train there...

... until a day when after leaving Birmingham New Street it got diverted via Bescot and Wednesfield to Bushbury, missing Wolverhampton altogether.

Strangely enough, for a while after that the train was much quieter again from Birmingham. No enforcement needed.

I remember this, but it appears to pre-date my saved timetables.
Also, around the same time, but possibly only for a year or so, there was a 323 working Birmingham-Penkridge-Stafford calling only at these stations which I used once for the novelty. This really did go via Bescot and bypassed Wolverhampton completely. Presumably since this was a regular service it didn't get too many accidental Wolverhampton passengers.

 

[greyman42]

It's also sometimes used to allow trains to depart early from the last station before a terminus, typically Stockport but I'm sure it's been used elsewhere. If it's for this purpose, it genuinely doesn't matter if someone boards it, it's only there so early running is acceptable.

The 2300 from London to York (M-F and Su) makes a number of stops that are all set down only, presumably to allow early departures.
The last Aberdeen-Leeds is also set down only for Northallerton.
Is it always possible to open the doors from the outside on these services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 2300 from London to York (M-F and Su) makes a number of stops that are all set down only, presumably to allow early departures.

The 2330 Euston-Brum was as well. It wasn't just to allow early departures, it was to simplify replacement operations if it had to be diverted, I believe. It isn't any more.

Is it always possible to open the doors from the outside on these services?

Yes.

 

[jfollows]

The 2330 Euston-Brum was as well. It wasn't just to allow early departures, it was to simplify replacement operations if it had to be diverted, I believe. It isn't any more.

I was interested so I had a look - it goes via Stafford this week until Friday night, when it reverts to the route via Coventry and Birmingham and picks up at these stations (final destination Wolverhampton).
But today we get (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/currentAndFuture.aspx?TravelDate=09/03/2022&TOC=)

Engineering work is taking place at various locations on the Avanti West Coast network, closing some lines overnight from Monday evening until Friday morning.

The 22:00 London Euston to Manchester service will be diverted, not calling at Crewe. A replacement bus will run from Stoke-on-Trent to Crewe.

The 22:30 London Euston to Wolverhampton service will be diverted, and will not call at Coventry, Birmingham International or Birmingham New Street. A replacement bus will run from Rugby to Birmingham New Street.

The 23:30 London Euston to Wolverhampton service will be diverted, and will not call at Coventry, Birmingham International or Birmingham New Street. A replacement bus will run from Rugby to Birmingham New Street.

... which is actually better, in the past it would have been as you describe to allow diversions but now the diversions are published.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It also used to run via Northampton (which would have a RRB from MKC but not from Northampton to Rugby, enabled by the set down only rule) but doesn't appear to any more.

I think Avanti had a bonfire of the u/s when COVID started, only the Watford ones seem to remain. I guess usage is low enough that they're happy to grab a bit of extra revenue (some of it on dedicated fares) from northbound MKC commuters, who were previously not offered an Avanti service at all between about 1630 and 1843.

 

[D6975]

I think we had this discussion on a different thread, but I don't think Stockport has been "set down only" for many years because of ORCATS and the increase in revenue to the long-distance operator which picking up passengers there feeds through.

The 22:00 EUS-MAN is still set down only at Stoke and Stockport, but most services that used to have the restriction have indeed lost it.

 

[route101]

Glasgow to Motherwell was set down and pick up too, but was lifted.

On SWR service out of Waterloo the guard said we are making an additional stop at Clapham Junction.

 

[Kite159]

The 22:00 EUS-MAN is still set down only at Stoke and Stockport, but most services that used to have the restriction have indeed lost it.

That one is set-down only after Nuneaton, makes sense for Tamworth & Lichfield calls being set-down in the event the slow line is closed so the train being unable to call there.

Although it does see some use with passengers boarding it at Stoke, especially after XC cut back the last Bournemouth - Manchester service to Birmingham last November time, as it is the last train towards Stockport/Manchester

 

[sk688]

With Avanti services I had a query regarding BOJ

if say I had an Avanti only London - MK ticket and wanted to get off at Watford after leaving Euston , would I be permitted to do so ? ( Recognise this would be rare now that the normal timetable is back in place)

 

[jfollows]

With Avanti services I had a query regarding BOJ

if say I had an Avanti only London - MK ticket and wanted to get off at Watford after leaving Euston , would I be permitted to do so ? ( Recognise this would be rare now that the normal timetable is back in place)

No, I believe the formal rules have been revised to cater for this, or at least for splitting fares at a pick-up-only stop at least, and by inference I would not think what you're asking about would be allowed either. Whether or not anyone could stop you is a different question.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2022 ==

Also, you'd only be able to get on a train at Euston which called at both Watford and Milton Keynes, and there aren't many (if any) of these services.

 

[NorthWestRover]

I'm slightly surprised the Penalty Fares rules don't allow one to be charged in this case (or in similar cases like boarding a compulsory reservation train without a reservation) but it's questionable whether they actually do, and it may be that no TOC that does it operates PFs, as there aren't many instances of it.

I'm sure I've heard the tannoy announce at Bolton that the TPE train is not valid to Manchester and that any passengers joining it will be charged a penalty fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, you'd only be able to get on a train at Euston which called at both Watford and Milton Keynes, and there aren't many (if any) of these services.

Only a few in the evening and possibly early morning I think. If you did board one of those and alight at Watford with an MKC ticket you would probably get away with it, the gateline is not in view of the platform so they'd have no idea you had. At worst the guard would shout at you.

There will however be an hourly service doing that from December (I think).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2022 ==

I'm sure I've heard the tannoy announce at Bolton that the TPE train is not valid to Manchester and that any passengers joining it will be charged a penalty fare.

They might try, but I suspect if one refused to pay and went to Court it'd fail.

"So, m'Lud, the prosecution are saying that my client boarded a direct train from Bolton to Manchester and held an Anytime ticket, that is one that is valid at any time, from Bolton to Manchester, and you are saying they did not have a valid ticket?"

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm sure I've heard the tannoy announce at Bolton that the TPE train is not valid to Manchester and that any passengers joining it will be charged a penalty fare.

Believe that TPE trains calling at Bolton on their way to Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly are invariably set down only at Bolton. (Or pick up only in the Preston direction).