• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Gatwick-Victoria Reservations

Status
Not open for further replies.

trentside

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2010
Messages
3,393
Location
Messroom
Hi everyone!

I'm going on a few trips aboard in the next few months, with two trips arriving back at Gatwick Airport. On both occasions I've booked (via East Coast) tickets back to Lincoln.

My questions are as follows;

1) One journey (in late January) has no reservations for the Gatwick-Victoria section to connect onto the 2130 EC service from Kings Cross, but the journey I've booked for early March has a reservation for the 1456 service from Gatwick to Victoria, but with no reserved seats - why is this? Also, as there are no reserved seats, do I have to use the 1456 as specified? I'm presuming I do, but would appreciate clarification.

2) Secondly, what should I do if I fail to make the connection with the train due to a late running flight? Would I be accommodated on a later service or would I be expected to purchase another ticket?

Thanks,
Trentside
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,471
I'll answer the first one.

1) One journey (in late January) has no reservations for the Gatwick-Victoria section to connect onto the 2130 EC service from Kings Cross, but the journey I've booked for early March has a reservation for the 1456 service from Gatwick to Victoria, but with no reserved seats - why is this?

Some Southern trains are reservable as they have AP quotas, eg. West Coastway services.

Also, as there are no reserved seats, do I have to use the 1456 as specified? I'm presuming I do, but would appreciate clarification.

Yes. Your ticket will say how many coupons are printed and the TM can ask to see them, in which case if you're not travelling on the specified train then you have broken the T&C of AP tickets.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,563
Location
Yorkshire
What ticket(s) do you have?

It sounds like you have one EC & Connections ticket?

The rules state that you may use "appropriate connecting trains", if you do not catch the last train with an official connection into the 2130 from King's Cross, then you do so at your risk. If you get to Gatwick at a time later than the 'recommended' time, then you may still get to King's Cross in time but if you do not, you are not covered as the delay was due to a flight, not the railways. Even if you get a later train that is scheduled to make it in time, if it's not a valid connection and that train gets delayed, you are at the mercy of the discretion of EC staff.

As for the specific issue of trains that are reservable (or semi-reservable, as in this case), on the connecting leg, it is a debatable issue that has been done to death on this forum. I'd rather not get into yet another debate with HairyHandedFool on this issue, so my advice is to do a search and read through previous topics.

I avoid getting into these problems myself by ensuring that when I book tickets, I try not to get reservations for the 'connecting' service by specifying a suitable via point. Of course this does then open up the other 'can of worms' about using a reservable service without a coupon, again I have no wish to debate this issue again, so see previous responses :)


2) Secondly, what should I do if I fail to make the connection with the train due to a late running flight? Would I be accommodated on a later service or would I be expected to purchase another ticket?
If you ask nicely, they might let you on a later service (I don't know what day you are travelling but there is a 2200 & 2330 departure M-F and a 2210 departure on Sundays). Ask at the ticket office for the ticket to be endorsed for later travel (not sure what time it closes!) if they say no, it's still worth asking the guard as it's at his/her discretion.

Officially I don't think they are obliged to let you travel due to a late flight but staff can be sympathetic to such reasons.

When I experienced a major delay on a bus due to severe congestion caused by York races, I found a sympathetic member of platform staff who endorsed my ticket. He commented that he uses the buses himself and was therefore sympathetic to my plight. I still see him around, and if I am ever in that position again he'd be the first person I'd approach!

Unfortunately at that time of night there will be less people to ask, so this may lessen the chances. On the other hand guards tend to be more sympathetic on evening services I reckon. I can't guarantee anything but you may well be 'let off'!

This well get you to somewhere not far from Lincoln, such as Newark. Obviously the railway isn't going to pay for you to get a taxi due to a delayed flight, so you may want to take out travel insurance if you don't want to pay the cost of a Newark - Lincoln taxi late at night.

The last train into Lincoln is the 2308 from Newark North Gate, which the 2130 from King's Cross connects into.

Yes. Your ticket will say how many coupons are printed and the TM can ask to see them, in which case if you're not travelling on the specified train then you have broken the T&C of AP tickets.
Not sure which question you are answering "yes" to, but it is a debateable point.

There are ways of avoiding the ticket stating how many coupons are printed, by the way.

As for whether or not a Southern guard could invalidate an EC & Connections ticket on that basis, I am unsure. I have never heard of this happening and would be very surprised if it did.

It is not as simple as saying that the terms have been broken (I'm not sure they have at all), we have had pages and pages of debate on this issue before.

As for what I would do? I'd take FCC, where ticket checks are incredibly rare, and if a check occurred, I am reasonably confident that showing a EC & Connections ticket would satisfy the ticket inspector. This would also avoid the need to change onto the tube at Victoria, assuming that the Thameslink route is open at that time of night on the day in question.
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
10,296
I'll answer the first one.



Some Southern trains are reservable as they have AP quotas, eg. West Coastway services.
Only for southern advance ticketsm, which these won't be. They only come with a coupon saying the service, not the seats though
Yes. Your ticket will say how many coupons are printed and the TM can ask to see them, in which case if you're not travelling on the specified train then you have broken the T&C of AP tickets.

If you are on a EMT+ connections or something similar you can get any connecting train, actually.
 

tony_mac

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2009
Messages
3,626
Location
Liverpool
They do give out reservation coupons for +connections tickets, and in my experience, the train staff also insist you travel on the booked service.
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
10,296
Actually ignore my post, I missed a bit of the OP!
 

trentside

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2010
Messages
3,393
Location
Messroom
What ticket(s) do you have?

It sounds like you have one EC & Connections ticket?

Yes, it's an EC & Connections ticket.

Thanks to everyone who has replied. The reason I asked is that I was curious about why I had a reservation coupon without any reserved seats. This is for the 1456 from Gatwick, connecting onto the 1610 EC service from KGX. I must admit I'd normally check things like this when purchasing, but I was focusing more on arranging flights and hotel rooms, the train tickets were an after thought, hence why I'm now having to ask questions!
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,563
Location
Yorkshire
They do give out reservation coupons for +connections tickets, and in my experience, the train staff also insist you travel on the booked service.
Southern staff? I've never experienced that, but then I very rarely get EC & Connections tickets south of the Thames anyway because I tend to get the cheap (like, £10) tickets that are not available south of King's Cross. If cheap tickets are not available I specify via LDS or SNO which usually works, if none of these methods work then I would tend not to travel to be honest (I object to paying for expensive AP fares)

I think that if SN staff are doing this, it is questionable, but rather than get into a debate, my suggestion would be to avoid the potential argument and use FCC instead, where such an argument is highly unlikely to take place.
 

tony_mac

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2009
Messages
3,626
Location
Liverpool
Yes, the southern guard said no, he just said 'I'm not allowed to let you on a different train'. I only asked as we had a 40-minute connection from Victoria to Euston with a pensioner, a child, and two very large suitcases!

We did just make it, but it was tight, and the luggage had to go in a different carriage.

It was an Eastbourne to Liverpool Virgin + connections advance ticket - and had a reserved service from Eastbourne, but obviously no seat reservations.
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
8,584
Location
Crayford
my suggestion would be to avoid the potential argument and use FCC instead, where such an argument is highly unlikely to take place.

If it's a M-F then yes, but if it's a weekend then I'd guess that the SN option is in fact the quickest. A quick check on NRES for tomorrow at 1500 suggests direct FCC trains or GatEx/LU with FCC the quickest, but on Saturday at 1500 it only suggests SN/LU or GatEx/LU.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,563
Location
Yorkshire
Yes, the southern guard said no, he just said 'I'm not allowed to let you on a different train' I only asked as we had a 40-minute connection from Victoria to Euston with a pensioner, a child, and two very large suitcases!

We did just make it, but it was tight, and the luggage had to go in a different carriage.

It was an Eastbourne to Liverpool Virgin + connections advance ticket - and had a reserved service from Eastbourne, but obviously no seat reservations.
In such a case as that, I would have printed off a "valid travel itinerary" from the National Rail Enquiries website, along with the rules of Virgin & Connections tickets stating that travel is allowed on "appropriate trains" where shown on a "valid travel itinerary". This would be a very robust argument that would be difficult for him to counter. However before showing that, I would ask if he is familiar with the rules about "& connections" tickets. I suspect he wouldn't be, and would ask him to look it up on Avantix. The printout would only come out if he claimed it said otherwise. Make them do the work, ask them what the rules say, and fight for your rights! The key is to be assertive.

It's a bit like a time when I was denied a break of journey at Aylesbury by a RPI/guard who had previously disliked me because I proved him wrong about CHFAM tickets being valid for 16 year olds when the 16 year old was 15 on the date the railcard was purchased on a previous journey. He made the rule up to annoy me, so I made them look it up, and they were then compelled to let me through the barrier (I only wanted a sandwich from the shop!) I got an apology from Chiltern.

If they don't know the rules, make them look up what the rules say. I don't have a problem with people not knowing all the rules (obviously; that's impossible) but making up rules and denying travel and refusing to look them up is unacceptable and should be challenged.

If you had missed the train from Euston, you would have been entitled to travel on a later train, and compensation, and I would have worded a strong letter of complaint for the lack of common sense and, I believe, disregard of the rules.

I've said far more than I wanted to say about this subject! It's one of those things that annoys me, that the rules are worded in such a ridiculous way, that there is any doubt that common sense should prevail.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,314
Regarding these SN 'booked trains', if SN have a quota and want the passenger to travel on a specific train, wouldn't it be better if the main ticket read 'EC + SN booked trains only'.

With both SN and SWT offering 'booked trains' rather than 'booked seats' for Advance fares - maybe the standard '+connections' line needs to be clearer when needed.

Maybe not all long distance through Advance fares are TOC + connection, but are TOC + TOC. As an example, suppose you had a York to Weymouth Advance (assuming it was available). Would that be an EC + connection, or an SWT + connection? Maybe it's TOC + TOC?
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,471
As a comparable example to the York - Weymouth case, I have tried booking Leicester - Bournemouth, both reservable trains and the ticket is indeed EMT & Connections rather than EMT & SWT.
 

Attachments

  • EMTConnect2.jpg
    EMTConnect2.jpg
    122 KB · Views: 12

John @ home

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,148
suppose you had a York to Weymouth Advance (assuming it was available). Would that be an EC + connection, or an SWT + connection? Maybe it's TOC + TOC?
There are two routes available for York - Weymouth Advance tickets: + EC & Connections or XC & Connections.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,314
Maybe not all long distance through Advance fares are TOC + connection, but are TOC + TOC. As an example, suppose you had a York to Weymouth Advance (assuming it was available). Would that be an EC + connection, or an SWT + connection? Maybe it's TOC + TOC?

I'll rephrase that question in the light of such tickets being available then.

As an example, take a York to Weymouth Advance. Should that be just an EC + connection, or should it actually become EC + SWT. That would seem to be the only way SWT could insist you use their booked train, if that is what they really want.

Are there any instances of Advance fares that do this?
 

EltonRoad

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2009
Messages
1,029
Location
Kendal
That would seem to be the only way SWT could insist you use their booked train, if that is what they really want.

Many advance tickets say "Valid: Booked Train Only". In the case of EC + connections tickets, this seems to cause confusion, in that people often query whether they can use alternative connecting services despite having a reserved seat on all legs.
 

John @ home

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,148
take a York to Weymouth Advance. ... should it actually become EC + SWT. That would seem to be the only way SWT could insist you use their booked train, if that is what they really want.

I would not favour the change suggested. Route EC & SWT would limit availability to these two TOCs only, excluding a number of other TOCs currently allowed by the Route + EC & Connections ticket. For example, entering via Wakefield generates journeys including TPE and/or Northern, while via Havant gives journeys including FCC and/or Southern.

If I was to make this journey, it is likely it would be with a person who finds walking down steps very difficult. I would therefore specify via City Thameslink in order to use FCC on a step-free route through central London. That option would not be available with a Route EC & SWT ticket.

Are there any instances of Advance fares that do this?
There are indeed Advance fares where the route limits the passenger to using named TOCs. For example, Leeds - Cardiff has four Advance routeings:
  • Route ATW FGW NT & TPE
  • Route XC only
  • Route XC & Connections
  • Route AP XC only Cheltenham
It seems that not all four TOCs are required for a journey by the first route: there are journey opportunities most hours using ATW and TPE only.
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,442
Different websites have different wordings of the conditions. I suspect that legally, the only wording that can apply is the wording on the website you used to book your ticket, or if booked at a station then the wording on the restriction card. Therefore, to get a definitive answer to your question, we would need to know which method you used to purchase your tickets.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top