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Trenitalia ICN & Connection - Potential Issues

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Iskra

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Italian night trains appear incredibly unreliable from my experience, I've booked an itinerary with a 22 minute Trenitalia connection off such a train. This is a risk, but what happens if I miss my connection, am I able to just catch the next one?
 
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D6130

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Italian night trains appear incredibly unreliable from my experience, I've booked an itinerary with a 22 minute Trenitalia connection off such a train. This is a risk, but what happens if I miss my connection, am I able to just catch the next one?
Don't forget that Trenitalia operate a 'delay repay' scheme for delays of more than 29 minutes on their IC, ICN and Freccia services. You should be able to find the details on their website.
 

Fragezeichnen

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Last Summer I booked a sleeper + high speed journey through Trenitalia.
I was a bit disconcerted to receive a PDF with 2 seperate tickets, which each had no indication if they belonged to a combined booking, wheras I would have expected a single ticket with 2 reservations. I was unable to find anyone who spoke enough English to tell me if I was actually protected against delays or not.

In the event the train ran perfectly to time despite a ferry journey being involved, so I never had to find out!
 

RT4038

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A few years ago I travelled numerous times on the Thello night service from Paris to Milan and connected to Trenitalia service south. The Thello was a notorious late runner. Trenitalia always honoured the connecting ticket - the biggest problem with connecting to the high speed services (compulsory reservation) was that there may not be any available seats for several hours. On one occasion I volunteered to stand in the Buffet and was told that was fine - ok for Milan to Firenze but probably not so good if you're going to Naples! My ticket was endorsed by the Trenitalia helpdesk and accepted by the conductor without problem! I just bought a couple of coffees to show willing. I daresay I could have walked through the train to find a 'no show' seat.
 

Bletchleyite

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Last Summer I booked a sleeper + high speed journey through Trenitalia.
I was a bit disconcerted to receive a PDF with 2 seperate tickets, which each had no indication if they belonged to a combined booking, wheras I would have expected a single ticket with 2 reservations. I was unable to find anyone who spoke enough English to tell me if I was actually protected against delays or not.

In the event the train ran perfectly to time despite a ferry journey being involved, so I never had to find out!

Other than Deutsche Bahn and journeys within Austria and/or Switzerland, most European high speed and night services operate what is called "global fare" (Globalpreis, given your username) ticketing, which means you get one physical ticket with reservation on it (or barcode) per vehicle journey. This has been the case for years.

TCV* ticketing, where you would have one international ticket and several reservations to go with it, has long gone, and often wasn't valid on those trains anyway.

* Sorry, no idea what it stands for, though my guess would be something like "Tarif combine de voyages" (combined journey tariff) or something. It's almost certainly in French.
 
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Iskra

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You should be able to catch the next service, I believe.
Yeah, I’ve always believed that was the case but wasn’t sure on the official position. I can always play the dumb tourist if needed.

Don't forget that Trenitalia operate a 'delay repay' scheme for delays of more than 29 minutes on their IC, ICN and Freccia services. You should be able to find the details on their website.
Yeah, I’ve been delayed with them before but not with a connection. In fairness to them, they are very good at communicating via email and text in the event of a mishap and telling you your delay repay entitlement.



A few years ago I travelled numerous times on the Thello night service from Paris to Milan and connected to Trenitalia service south. The Thello was a notorious late runner. Trenitalia always honoured the connecting ticket - the biggest problem with connecting to the high speed services (compulsory reservation) was that there may not be any available seats for several hours. On one occasion I volunteered to stand in the Buffet and was told that was fine - ok for Milan to Firenze but probably not so good if you're going to Naples! My ticket was endorsed by the Trenitalia helpdesk and accepted by the conductor without problem! I just bought a couple of coffees to show willing. I daresay I could have walked through the train to find a 'no show' seat.
Ah, that’s good to know! Thank you for sharing! Trenitalia seem pretty chilled mostly.
 

rvdborgt

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TCV* ticketing, where you would have one international ticket and several reservations to go with it, has long gone, and often wasn't valid on those trains anyway.

* Sorry, no idea what it stands for, though my guess would be something like "Tarif combine de voyages" (combined journey tariff) or something. It's almost certainly in French.
Tarif Commun international pour le transport des Voyageurs et des bagages.
 

AlbertBeale

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Other than Deutsche Bahn and journeys within Austria and/or Switzerland, most European high speed and night services operate what is called "global fare" (Globalpreis, given your username) ticketing, which means you get one physical ticket with reservation on it (or barcode) per vehicle journey. This has been the case for years.

TCV* ticketing, where you would have one international ticket and several reservations to go with it, has long gone, and often wasn't valid on those trains anyway.

And very useful and flexible that system was too. Combined with the CIV protection on international tickets, and combined also with a co-operative rather than competitive mentality when all the European railways were public services not private companies, meant that when I first travelled in Europe by train, decades ago, it was secure and stress-free compared to these days.

Through tickets for international journeys, with guarantees of not being left without a connection if a train arrives late, urgently need to be brought back for European rail journeys. Either that or a revival of non-"global price" tickets, with reservations separate from the journey ticket and at a nominal charge.
 

MarcVD

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TCV* ticketing, where you would have one international ticket and several reservations to go with it, has long gone, and often wasn't valid on those trains anyway.

TCV, as far as I know, is still very much alive, the problem being only to find trains where you can still use them. But you can still buy a TCV ticket from Brussels to Paris for example, and then travel with belgian IC and French TER trains via, for example, Lille and Amiens. Been there, done that.
 

dutchflyer

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And very useful and flexible that system was too. Combined with the CIV protection on international tickets, and combined also with a co-operative rather than competitive mentality when all the European railways were public services not private companies, meant that when I first travelled in Europe by train, decades ago, it was secure and stress-free compared to these days.

Through tickets for international journeys, with guarantees of not being left without a connection if a train arrives late, urgently need to be brought back for European rail journeys. Either that or a revival of non-"global price" tickets, with reservations separate from the journey ticket and at a nominal charge.
Except that in those times when about all INTern. ticketing was done that way, there was NO ´protection´ or money back of whatever kind of real assistance. But that was before these global price Hi-speed lines started to improve rail travel.
It was in fact the cumbersome need for extra ticketing and mandatory REServations that were only able to blossom once the internet came in full force that EU was in the end forced to impose such rules. Of course with bitter resistance from about any burocratic state-railway.
The fairly blunt answer when one missed trainconnections or other mishaps was just: next train will leave at .....
(and then you had to find small local coins and a working fone box to inform your ´dear ones´ that it would be .... hrs later!)
 

Starmill

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TCV, as far as I know, is still very much alive, the problem being only to find trains where you can still use them. But you can still buy a TCV ticket from Brussels to Paris for example, and then travel with belgian IC and French TER trains via, for example, Lille and Amiens. Been there, done that.
As I understand it it's still going. But the issue apart from it being very slow on most journey pairs is also that it frequently costs more than the typical 'advance' (prems, supersparpeis, first minute, or whatever other name you prefer) rates.
 

30907

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The fairly blunt answer when one missed trainconnections or other mishaps was just: next train will leave at .....
(and then you had to find small local coins and a working fone box to inform your ´dear ones´ that it would be .... hrs later!)
...or "demain, monsieur" which was the unhelpful answer I got in Clermont-Ferrand 40 years ago, when I arrived at the station for the Beziers train to discover there was a strike.
Fortunately I had a free pass, and spotted there was a train heading north to Gannat(?), where I could pick up a connection via Lyon - but I still haven't done the whole Causses line in daylight :(
 

Bletchleyite

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And very useful and flexible that system was too. Combined with the CIV protection on international tickets, and combined also with a co-operative rather than competitive mentality when all the European railways were public services not private companies, meant that when I first travelled in Europe by train, decades ago, it was secure and stress-free compared to these days.

Through tickets for international journeys, with guarantees of not being left without a connection if a train arrives late, urgently need to be brought back for European rail journeys. Either that or a revival of non-"global price" tickets, with reservations separate from the journey ticket and at a nominal charge.

The EU simply needs to legislate to mandate UK style split ticket passenger rights throughout the community. They won't, though, as SNCF is too influential on the French Government, who would veto it.
 

RT4038

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As I understand it it's still going. But the issue apart from it being very slow on most journey pairs is also that it frequently costs more than the typical 'advance' (prems, supersparpeis, first minute, or whatever other name you prefer) rates.
Well yes, but then you are paying more for the TCV rights, which presumably could cost the railway company a pretty Euro ! Cheap fares and generous compensation/alternative arrangements do not easily go hand in hand.

The EU simply needs to legislate to mandate UK style split ticket passenger rights throughout the community. They won't, though, as SNCF is too influential on the French Government, who would veto it.
This is all very well, but there could well be increases in fares to deal with the costs of the compensation/arrangements and the staff on hand at connectional points to deal with the issues (rebooking of reservations, finding hotel rooms/taxis etc etc). Whilst some of things could possibly be computerised, at a considerable cost no doubt, I have seen numerous unpleasant situations at Airports around the world where passengers get on their high horse against a small number of available employees trying to deal with the situation in an economic manner.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well yes, but then you are paying more for the TCV rights, which presumably could cost the railway company a pretty Euro ! Cheap fares and generous compensation/alternative arrangements do not easily go hand in hand.

Given how cheap some UK Advances are, this is demonstrably false.

This is all very well, but there could well be increases in fares to deal with the costs of the compensation/arrangements and the staff on hand at connectional points to deal with the issues (rebooking of reservations, finding hotel rooms/taxis etc etc)

There might need to be a small fare increase, yes.
 

rvdborgt

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The EU simply needs to legislate to mandate UK style split ticket passenger rights throughout the community. They won't, though, as SNCF is too influential on the French Government, who would veto it.
Well, believe it or not, the CER and their (mostly) state-rail members are realising that there will be EU legislation if they don't change anything themselves quickly. The European Commission has finally announced that they will come up with proposals later this year. And since it's hard to predict what will come out at the end of the EU legislative process, the whole railway sector is discussing what they want to do, in order to prevent legislation.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well, believe it or not, the CER and their (mostly) state-rail members are realising that there will be EU legislation if they don't change anything themselves quickly. The European Commission has finally announced that they will come up with proposals later this year. And since it's hard to predict what will come out at the end of the EU legislative process, the whole railway sector is discussing what they want to do, in order to prevent legislation.

I suppose there's already "HOTNAT*" for the high speed services, but it really needs to be blanket across everything and include additional assistance like hotel accommodation if stuck overnight e.g. because the next compulsory reservation service is full, just as is the right of an air passenger.

* Hop On The Next Available Train.
 

rvdborgt

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I suppose there's already "HOTNAT*" for the high speed services, but it really needs to be blanket across everything and include additional assistance like hotel accommodation if stuck overnight e.g. because the next compulsory reservation service is full, just as is the right of an air passenger.

* Hop On The Next Available Train.
Yep, discussions are about things like that.
 

AlbertBeale

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Except that in those times when about all INTern. ticketing was done that way, there was NO ´protection´ or money back of whatever kind of real assistance. But that was before these global price Hi-speed lines started to improve rail travel.
It was in fact the cumbersome need for extra ticketing and mandatory REServations that were only able to blossom once the internet came in full force that EU was in the end forced to impose such rules. Of course with bitter resistance from about any burocratic state-railway.
The fairly blunt answer when one missed trainconnections or other mishaps was just: next train will leave at .....
(and then you had to find small local coins and a working fone box to inform your ´dear ones´ that it would be .... hrs later!)

In fact, reservations were a doddle decades back when the internet as we know it didn't exist. I remember 40 or more years ago being in a little two-horse Italian hill town on a branch line with a handful of trains a day, and popping into the local station in the evening to book a reservation on a train several countries away a few days later (I already had the relevant ticket). It cost coppers, and took just a couple of minutes for the reservation to be made and the piece of paper to be printed out for me.

The EU simply needs to legislate to mandate UK style split ticket passenger rights throughout the community. They won't, though, as SNCF is too influential on the French Government, who would veto it.

Absolutely - an agreed international system of a right to rebooking when a valid connection is missed would get over a lot of the hassle of cross-border travel now - though it would still leave the hassle of buying the tickets in the first place: that needs to be seamless too.

I suppose there's already "HOTNAT*" for the high speed services, but it really needs to be blanket across everything and include additional assistance like hotel accommodation if stuck overnight e.g. because the next compulsory reservation service is full, just as is the right of an air passenger.

* Hop On The Next Available Train.

At present, this does seem to be secure on a through ticket, at least. My last pre-pandemic trip was Hamburg-London one Friday afternoon, with the whole journey on one DB-issued ticket. One of the two German trains to get me to Cologne was late, meaning I just missed my connection to Brussels; and the next one wouldn't arrive in time for the last Eurostar to London. The inquiry desk didn't bat an eyelid - they just gave me a taxi to a nice local hotel for the night, with bed and breakfast paid by them, and told me to come back at my leisure the next morning (again with them paying for the taxi). When I did they said that Belgian engineering work meant there were no Brussels-London trains that day; so they put lots of rubber stamps and scribbles on my ticket, endorsing it to route me via Paris instead. So I had a free trip to Paris (where I had a pleasant meal break in a country I hadn't been expecting to visit that time) and got the Eurostar back home from there without any problem with the Eurostar check-in. I was 20 or so hours late back in London, but really no complaints. None of the staff from the various rail undertakings I dealt with made a fuss, and at no stage did I think I might be left stranded. Really an object lesson in how the system ought to operate. So let's hope that the discussions referred to either give an equivalent right for journeys using more than one ticket, and/or ensure that multi-leg journeys can be booked with a through ticket.
 

Starmill

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You can of course still get Hamburg - London journeys on a through booking at sites such as Rail Europe. I'm not aware of the availability of any through tickets these days, but it would be very interesting to see if Eurostar, Deutsche Bahn, or others would still be willing to offer that same level of customer service to a Rail Europe passenger. In particular, Rail Europe doesn't actually tell you that you're not booking a through ticket.

Through tickets from Koln and potentially other German locations are still possible because Thalys appears to offer them.

Bookings in the manner of both of the above may also be made at https://www.international-bahn.de/en/search
 
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rvdborgt

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You can of course still get Hamburg - London journeys on a through booking at sites such as Rail Europe. I'm not aware of the availability of any through tickets these days, but it would be very interesting to see if Eurostar, Deutsche Bahn, or others would still be willing to offer that same level of customer service to a Rail Europe passenger. In particular, Rail Europe doesn't actually tell you that you're not booking a through ticket.
I'm not aware of any booking platform that tells you you're about to conclude a series of contracts (as opposed to one), and what this means in practice. The most you'll find is that a platform states that, when separate tickets are issued for parts of your journey, these will constitute separate contracts. But no platform will tell you that this applies to the journey you're about to book. IMO this is essential information and it's therefore mandatory to mention this clearly before payment. I'm not sure however, what it means when this is not mentioned. That probably also depends on national legislation, since EU consumer law is a directive (although with some pretty detailed requirements) that can be implemented in different ways, rather than a regulation.
Current discussions are indeed including journey continuation with split tickets but also the ease of booking rail journeys, specifically international rail journeys. CER is now realising this and, although it does contain some flaws, the CER ticketing roadmap marks an important shift in CER's (and their biggest/most influential members, presumably) attitude.
 
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