When can you decline to show a ticket?

[Jan Mayen]

Can you still be asked to show a ticket (and be prosecuted for failing to show a ticket) after you've gone through the ticket barrier? I don't have a particular incident in mind, just a recent post where the OP said they went through the barriers and were asked to come back because their friend didn't have a ticket.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Can you still be asked to show a ticket (and be prosecuted for failing to show a ticket) after you've gone through the ticket barrier?

Once you’re in a ticket area ie through the barrier,on platform or on a train you can be asked to show you’re ticket at anytime by a uniformed member of staff or one showing appropriate authorisation.
Refusing or failing to show a valid ticket for the journey you are making is still an offence under railway byelaws. I’m sure others on here will explain better.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Sorry, I meant when leaving the station, so exiting the ticket area.

 

[D6968]

Once you’re in a ticket area ie through the barrier,on platform or on a train you can be asked to show you’re ticket at anytime by a uniformed member of staff or one showing appropriate authorisation.
Refusing or failing to show a valid ticket for the journey you are making is still an offence under railway byelaws. I’m sure others on here will explain better.

How about if it’s the other way round though? Not so much these days,but I’ve heard stories of grippers chasing enthusiast’s and trying to grip them off railway property back from a few years ago.
I think there was even a trolly guy asking to see someone’s ticket when trying to buy alcohol on the North Wales Coast about 20 years ago.

 

[krus_aragon]

I think there was even a trolly guy asking to see someone’s ticket when trying to buy alcohol on the North Wales Coast about 20 years ago.

I don't recall this event, but at a guess, might he have been looking for informal proof of age before selling alcohol? (If you've bought a child ticket...)

 

[transportphoto]

Can you still be asked to show a ticket (and be prosecuted for failing to show a ticket) after you've gone through the ticket barrier?

I guess there’s some element of common sense to be played here, I know that’s a dangerous suggestion. The vast majority of travellers have nothing to hide, have a valid ticket for their journey, etc. If you’re out of the station and very much out of the way, I’d not ever expect anyone to come chasing me for a ticket.

If you’re still at the ticket barriers (albeit having just passed through them) and am stopped by revenue protection, there would the expectation of you to be able to produce your ticket unless it’s been retained by the barriers.

Have you further thoughts on the subject which have inspired the question? I know you reference another recent thread.

 

[D6968]

I don't recall this event, but at a guess, might he have been looking for informal proof of age before selling alcohol? (If you've bought a child ticket...)

I don’t think it was anything to do with that (There was an anomaly in the law I believe that there was no age restriction on the sale of alcohol on trains at the time, I’m not sure if that was changed in 2007) But If totally unsure he could have just refused service anyway.
This trolly guy had a bit of reputation for not really liking enthusiast’s and could be a bit awkward (and I can imagine why.
But then again I also had friends who ended up on first name terms with some of the catering staff that worked out of Chester at the time but that as they say is another story)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you still be asked to show a ticket (and be prosecuted for failing to show a ticket) after you've gone through the ticket barrier? I don't have a particular incident in mind, just a recent post where the OP said they went through the barriers and were asked to come back because their friend didn't have a ticket.

Yes. A ticket must be shown on request to any authorised member of staff at any time until you leave railway property at the destination.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2022 ==

How about if it’s the other way round though? Not so much these days,but I’ve heard stories of grippers chasing enthusiast’s and trying to grip them off railway property back from a few years ago.
I think there was even a trolly guy asking to see someone’s ticket when trying to buy alcohol on the North Wales Coast about 20 years ago.

Quite a good trick for catching out illegitimate use of child fares is "Well, you're on a child ticket and you're buying alcohol. One of those two things is illegal. Which one is it? Would you like to buy an adult ticket/pay a PF now, or shall I let the Police know you've been attempting to buy alcohol underage?"

 

[geoffk]

Has anyone been asked to show a ticket when they are just changing trains, not leaving or entering the station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has anyone been asked to show a ticket when they are just changing trains, not leaving or entering the station?

Yes, it is quite common to block specific platforms instead of the whole station, and there are stations where you have to pass a gateline to change.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Has anyone been asked to show a ticket when they are just changing trains, not leaving or entering the station?

Yep. On the overbridge between platforms 13/14 and the rest of the station at Manchester Piccadilly when travelling on a Manchester Stns -> London Terminals ticket having initially started out at Deansgate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep. On the overbridge between platforms 13/14 and the rest of the station at Manchester Piccadilly when travelling on a Manchester Stns -> London Terminals ticket having initially started out at Deansgate.

It's similarly very common for RPIs to block the bridge to P1/2 at Preston. The layout of the station doesn't really allow for blocking the whole thing - it's not gated because it's just too awkward to gate it.

 

[Whistler40145]

Yep. On the overbridge between platforms 13/14 and the rest of the station at Manchester Piccadilly when travelling on a Manchester Stns -> London Terminals ticket having initially started out at Deansgate.

Sometimes Northern check tickets on the bridge at Preston between Platforms 1/2 and 3/4

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Sometimes Northern check tickets on the bridge at Preston between Platforms 1/2 and 3/4

Only occasionally do they ever also check any tickets for passengers using the underpass from 1+2 to the other platforms at Preston.

 

[Envy123]

Has anyone been asked to show a ticket when they are just changing trains, not leaving or entering the station?

Highbury and Islington had a revenue block back in 2013-2014, I think, between the Overground and Victoria line/GN platforms.

 

[Gloster]

But do members of the general public realise that at some places railway property may extend for quite a long way? Within the barriers is fairly obvious and on the concourse may be understood, but once they have gone out of the building or through the entrance they are likely to think that they are off railway property. (Not that it is likely to be at the forefront of their thoughts.) if a railway employee stops them outside the station and asks for their ticket, their reaction will be on the lines of, “But I’ve left the station.”

Wasn’t there a case (twenty years or so ago) where someone was pursued by the railway for failing to show a ticket outside the station entrance and his defence was that he had thrown it in a bin once he had passed the barriers. I have a feeling that there was a smell of racism by the Inspector in that case.

Don’t they say that you must retain you ticket throughout your journey? To many people the journey will end once they have gone out of the station entrance: after that point they need not retain the ticket.

 

[roversfan2001]

It's similarly very common for RPIs to block the bridge to P1/2 at Preston. The layout of the station doesn't really allow for blocking the whole thing - it's not gated because it's just too awkward to gate it.

I do feel like if they really wanted to gate it, they could.

VT (as was) used to block the ramp down to P3/4 regularly too - though I've not seen Avanti do it.

Only occasionally do they ever also check any tickets for passengers using the underpass from 1+2 to the other platforms at Preston.

They tend to do that at peak times. I recall receiving an incorrectly issued UFN from one of them positioned there once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do feel like if they really wanted to gate it, they could.

You could only viably do it by closing the Fishergate entrance entirely (which would be very annoying), or by building some sort of building there to contain a few TVMs and a gateline. It's an odd station in that the busiest entrance/exit is really small and obscure.

Only other way I can think of is by replacing the bridge entirely by a wider one with a paid and non-paid side, which could have the advantage of adding lifts. I have wondered about the idea of a full-on Reading style mezzanine which could contain a replacement ticket office.

In BR days that entrance had a hut with a bloke in it, but I expect he'd sell you a ticket if you wanted.

 

[2192]

... I’ve heard stories of grippers chasing enthusiasts and trying to grip them off railway property ...

What's a gripper?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Sorry, I meant when leaving the station, so exiting the ticket area.

I think if someone wants to chase a suspected fare evader they would have to have reasonable suspicion that the fare has been evaded. Jumping or tailgating through the barrier,ignoring a request at a manual barrier or telling the staff to go do one usually gives grounds for suspicion. You’d have to pretty sure and brave to give chase though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2022 ==

What's a gripper?

Enthusiast nickname for a ticket collector or guard.

 

[island]

I think if someone wants to chase a suspected fare evader they would have to have reasonable suspicion that the fare has been evaded

Anyone can chase anyone they want, regardless of what they do or don't have reasonable suspicion of (as long as they do not commit some other offence whilst doing so, such as assault or harassment).

Railway staff are, for the most part, instructed that they are not under any circumstances to attempt to chase or detain anyone without police assistance.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Railway staff are, for the most part, instructed that they are not under any circumstances to attempt to chase or detain anyone without police assistance.

That is correct,and at my age I won’t be chasing anyone. In some ways it’s like supermarkets,how often have you heard the alarm by the doors sound and notice just a casual glance from till staff. If a security guard is around they might investigate or give chase.

 

[Class800]

Yes. A ticket must be shown on request to any authorised member of staff at any time until you leave railway property at the destination.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2022 ==



Quite a good trick for catching out illegitimate use of child fares is "Well, you're on a child ticket and you're buying alcohol. One of those two things is illegal. Which one is it? Would you like to buy an adult ticket/pay a PF now, or shall I let the Police know you've been attempting to buy alcohol underage?"

I think the only time it would be legitimate to refuse is before you enter railway property or after you leave it. You should not be ticket inspected on the street

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

I did once refuse to show my ticket on an InterCity train from Norwich to London. Shortly before arriving at Ipswich the Senior Conductor came through checking tickets and I showed it to them. Just after passing through Ipswich tunnel I was approached by someone not in railway uniform demanding to see my ticket. I asked him who he was and he said he was a ticket inspector. I politely pointed out that less than 10 minutes previously I had shown my ticket to a member of staff and wasn't going to show it to him. I asked him for his ID and was shown a card with a name and number on. I was writing these details down when the Senior Conductor came through again and told this person that he had no authority to check tickets without talking to him first and ordered him off the train at Manningtree.

It turned out that a team of Revenue Inspectors contracted to Great Eastern had decided to try their luck on an InterCity service operated Anglia Railways!

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don’t think it was anything to do with that (There was an anomaly in the law I believe that there was no age restriction on the sale of alcohol on trains at the time, I’m not sure if that was changed in 2007) But If totally unsure he could have just refused service anyway.
This trolly guy had a bit of reputation for not really liking enthusiast’s and could be a bit awkward (and I can imagine why.
But then again I also had friends who ended up on first name terms with some of the catering staff that worked out of Chester at the time but that as they say is another story)

Asking to see a ticket isn’t going to identify an enthusiast. It was only ever a small minority of enthusiasts who used to travel without tickets. The same people who 30 years later still boast about it as though it was some kind of achievement to be proud of.

 

[londonbridge]

Has anyone been asked to show a ticket when they are just changing trains, not leaving or entering the station?

Yes, I’ve had this once or twice.

 

[PeterC]

Before travelcard season tickets were made Oyster only there were regular checks in the corridor leading to the Jubilee platforms at Waterloo.

 

[philthetube]

Has anyone been asked to show a ticket when they are just changing trains, not leaving or entering the station?

Preston, frequently.

 

[John Luxton]

Asking to see a ticket isn’t going to identify an enthusiast. It was only ever a small minority of enthusiasts who used to travel without tickets. The same people who 30 years later still boast about it as though it was some kind of achievement to be proud of.

I don't see how any person claiming to be a railway enthusiast could ever steal travel from the railways or be dishonest.

 

[Gloster]

I don't see how any person claiming to be a railway enthusiast could ever steal travel from the railways or be dishonest.

The desire to save money, show off or be able to snigger to oneself about how you have got one over on somebody or a faceless organisation overcomes sense, decency and honesty in many people. Or there can be other reasons: I knew someone (born around 1957) who felt that he was scoring a victory against BR because they had done away with the steam locos he just remembered. (He was to my mid-teen eyes rather childish and I didn’t encourage his friendship.)