Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

Which is why I said that your refund rights could depend on what ticket(s) you hold.

Not, however, which type of CS ticket is held (though some may offer a "no quibble" refund making life easier). It all depends on what is used for the first part of the journey, and that it has validity to Euston specifically (e.g. a ticket to Underground Zone 1, or if there isn't such a ticket then a paper Day Travelcard). It is particularly important that a paper or e-ticket is used, and not contactless, and the OP is very strongly advised to follow an itinerary for the whole journey obtained, and printed, from nationalrail.co.uk.

The OP would also be well advised NOT to walk from St Pancras, but to use rail for the whole journey including a LU transfer, or as a minimum to have a ticket that would allow that. Walking between the two would allow for the argument that they walked too slowly were the CS to be very narrowly missed.

 

[najaB]

Not, however, which type of CS ticket is held (though some may offer a "no quibble" refund making life easier).

I respectfully disagree. On their ticket types page, CS say (my highlight):

Caledonian Sleeper Fixed Advance

Our Fixed Advance tickets offer our best value fares. No changes, refunds or upgrades are allowed. Available for Club and Classic rooms.

If you hold a ticket to Victoria and a CS Fixed Advance from Euston then you'd be on shaky ground to claim that you are entitled to anything if there's a delay to the first train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I respectfully disagree. On their ticket types page, CS say (my highlight):

If you hold a ticket to Victoria and a CS Fixed Advance then you'd be on shaky ground to say that you are entitled to anything if there's a delay to the first train.

If however you hold a ticket with validity to Euston (e.g. a paper Day Travelcard or a single to U1 if one is available), and you complete the journey by rail/Tube, that is one journey as per Condition 14, and thus a refund for abandonment, or accommodation on the next train by that TOC, are an entitlement of the NRCoT.

 

[najaB]

If however you hold a ticket with validity to Euston (e.g. a paper Day Travelcard or a single to U1 if one is available), that is one journey as per Condition 14, and thus a refund for abandonment, or accommodation on the next train by that TOC, are an entitlement of the NRCoT.

Agreed. My original post on the subject was based on reading @tornado's journey as being two separate tickets that don't join up.

 

[Deepgreen]

Are you staying at Moor of Rannoch Hotel?
It's quite an experience.

Yes! Been there many times and this time did not disappoint. Superb food, location and general aura (including the snow we hoped for!). All went fine with travel and I and my walking friend were upgraded to a double cabin each on the CS. BTW, the announcement on 7 March may well be heavily tempered by the 10 day March engineering blockade between Crianlarich and Fort William, meaning road travel to the Highland main line for sleeper passengers! A class 66 was nipping up and down the line while we were up there, presumably on driver familiarisation runs. Or perhaps that is going to be the announcement! Incidentally I got chatting to the people who were setting up the Rannoch station tearoom for the seasonal opening and it emerged they came from Brockham in Surrey, where I live!

 

[MarcusL1]

Could it be a possibility of CS offering shared berths with other travellers? Post-COVID and all that now, they might begin giving people that option to lower prices somewhat?

 

[najaB]

Could it be a possibility of CS offering shared berths with other travellers? Post-COVID and all that now, they might begin giving people that option to lower prices somewhat?

I don't see that as something they can spin as "exciting" though.

 

[D6130]

We're all just going to have to be patient and wait for the official announcement!

 

[Deepgreen]

We're all just going to have to be patient and wait for the official announcement!

You don't know this forum very well do you!

 

[PG]

I wonder further if they would actually be able to replace the now-standard use of 73s plus 66s on the sleepers? I find it very disappointing that the 73s have failed to fulfuil their purpose on the sleepers.

[Replying here as it's more relevant]
So are the 73s incapable of operation without a 66 or is the use of a 66 some kind of insurance policy?

 

[najaB]

So are the 73s incapable of operation without a 66 or is the use of a 66 some kind of insurance policy?

Insurance only, as far as I know. The Aberdeen portion was always a solo 73 when I was going into the office early enough to see it.

 

[JonathanH]

[Replying here as it's more relevant]
So are the 73s incapable of operation without a 66 or is the use of a 66 some kind of insurance policy?

The Fort William portion ran without a 66 Tuesday evening / Wednesday morning.

 

[Deepgreen]

The Fort William portion ran without a 66 Tuesday evening / Wednesday morning.

Every working I saw at Rannoch last week had a 66. What determines when 'insurance' is required I wonder, given that the trains are short and adhesion isn't an issue even in poor weather? It seems unfortunate that 'insurance' is needed so often as to make the 73s virtually redundant as traction.

 

[JonathanH]

Every working I saw at Rannoch last week had a 66. What determines when 'insurance' is required I wonder, given that the trains are short and adhesion isn't an issue even in poor weather? It seems unfortunate that 'insurance' is needed so often as to make the 73s virtually redundant as traction.

In the case I am noting, the 66 was needed to recover a failed freight train (also a 66) and the 73 was trusted to run the sleeper on its own.

 

[sw1ller]

Just an update, I’ve rang the guys up about my ticket and they’ve sorted it. Thanks for everyone’s help.

 

[PG]

It seems unfortunate that 'insurance' is needed so often as to make the 73s virtually redundant as traction.

Yes it is. Would this be a GBRf decision or CS one (or both)?

 

[Deepgreen]

In the case I am noting, the 66 was needed to recover a failed freight train (also a 66) and the 73 was trusted to run the sleeper on its own.

Yes. A case, really, of trusting it or cancelling, I imagine. I'll just pop this shot in from last week as I quite liked it. Approaching Rannoch and taken from the hotel - lazy rail photography at its best!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2022 ==

Yes it is. Would this be a GBRf decision or CS one (or both)?

I would imagine that, as the TOC, CS would responsible for ensuring the reliability of their trains, and would thus hire the 66s in. From my observations, it is now the norm to use the 66s and the 73s only go alone if special issues arise (such as rescues). I don't know how much of the 73 rebuild costs CS bore, but the 66 hiring must drain the already huge loss-maker still further.

 

[alistairlees]

Yes. A case, really, of trusting it or cancelling, I imagine. I'll just pop this shot in from last week as I quite liked it. Approaching Rannoch and taken from the hotel - lazy rail photography at its best!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2022 ==


I would imagine that, as the TOC, CS would responsible for ensuring the reliability of their trains, and would thus hire the 66s in. From my observations, it is now the norm to use the 66s and the 73s only go alone if special issues arise (such as rescues). I don't know how much of the 73 rebuild costs CS bore, but the 66 hiring must drain the already huge loss-maker still further.

Caledonian Sleeper have paid GBRf to provide the locos. It's the latter who are bearing the costs.

 

[Deepgreen]

Caledonian Sleeper have paid GBRf to provide the locos. It's the latter who are bearing the costs.

Sorry? If CS are paying, then surely they, by definition, are bearing the costs.

 

[JonathanH]

Sorry? If CS are paying, then surely they, by definition, are bearing the costs.

No, not if there is a fixed payment under an agreed contract with GBRf to provide one loco, and GBRf decide to supply two rather than one.

It might be imagined that GBRf are paid a fee to provide traction based on use of the 73s and that the possible penalty payments for non-provision of the 73s for GBRf is more than the cost of using two locomotives.

The use of two locomotives is about not breaking the 73 rather than an expectation that they will be broken.

 

[Deepgreen]

No, not if there is a fixed payment under an agreed contract with GBRf to provide one loco, and GBRf decide to supply two rather than one.

It might be imagined that GBRf are paid a fee to provide traction based on use of the 73s and that the possible penalty payments for non-provision of the 73s for GBRf is more than the cost of using two locomotives.

The use of two locomotives is about not breaking the 73 rather than an expectation that they will be broken.

Ah OK - a fixed payment makes sense. However, the overall financial performance of the entire CS haulage operation, including the extensive works on the 73s, must be dire. Really poor for such a recent major project.

 

[BRX]

If it's up to GBRf to bear the costs of any under-performance of the 73s then you can't really include that in an assessment of the financial performance of the CS operation. If anything it might show the CS operation did the *right* thing in arranging haulage as a fixed price contract (if that's what it is).

But are the 73s really underperforming, anyway? Not long ago I thought there was some level of consensus that they were pretty decent and generally did a good job, and the conversion had been regarded quite a success.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I don't see that as something they can spin as "exciting" though.

Sharing a berth with a stranger could be exciting. Maybe spin it as speed dating?

 

[Deepgreen]

If it's up to GBRf to bear the costs of any under-performance of the 73s then you can't really include that in an assessment of the financial performance of the CS operation. If anything it might show the CS operation did the *right* thing in arranging haulage as a fixed price contract (if that's what it is).

But are the 73s really underperforming, anyway? Not long ago I thought there was some level of consensus that they were pretty decent and generally did a good job, and the conversion had been regarded quite a success.

I would categorise usually/normally requiring 'insurance' class 66 motive power (which actually provides prime motive power) as under-performing, yes.

 

[XAM2175]

I seem to remember that some of the 73/9s were off covering for another GBRf commitment down south. Is this still the case?

I'll just pop this shot in from last week as I quite liked it. Approaching Rannoch and taken from the hotel - lazy rail photography at its best!

It's bloody good though!

Sharing a berth with a stranger could be exciting. Maybe spin it as speed dating?

Except that they stopped offering it because the only people who actually wanted it were cheapskates taking a chance on getting sole occupancy anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

I seem to remember that some of the 73/9s were off covering for another GBRf commitment down south. Is this still the case?

As far as I know, that has never been the case for any of 73966-73971.

The other five 73/9s are a completely different fleet.

 

[Falcon1200]

Sharing a berth with a stranger could be exciting. Maybe spin it as speed dating?

Or turn it into a new Channel Four series: 'First Dates on the Sleeper Train'......

 

[miami]

I'm sure there's a porn plot in there somewhere

 

[najaB]

I'm sure there's a porn plot in there somewhere

I believe that Rule 34 applies.

 

[Deepgreen]

Sharing a berth with a stranger could be exciting. Maybe spin it as speed dating?

Or, when hurtling through the night; date speeding?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2022 ==

I seem to remember that some of the 73/9s were off covering for another GBRf commitment down south. Is this still the case?


It's bloody good though!


Except that they stopped offering it because the only people who actually wanted it were cheapskates taking a chance on getting sole occupancy anyway.

Many thanks - yes, everything worked together to give a pleasing result, although I did have to put my coffee down to take it - the suffering we artists go through!