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Cross Country RMT industrial action

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SCDR_WMR

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This is an interesting point. I would imagine that driver managers can act as contingents? But I’m not 100% sure as it’s not my area of speciality.

This is a difficult one to phrase without sounding like I’m down playing the role of SCNR vs Driver. But, there is a reason that the conductor training course is significantly shorter than the driver course - and that is reflected in the ease with which competence can be maintained.

I am not suggesting for one minute being a conductor is easy - it is not! I think the nature of the role is very different, a lot more skills/NTS based in managing situations and events. Driving is a continuous process, and requires a very different skill set that requires very different types of learning and maintenance of competence.

So in short - I don’t think it’s about being one to specifically get rid of conductors, just accepting what level of contingency is feasible.
So just to clarify, Driver Managers are indeed able to be classed as contingency drivers. They were used to fill temporary gaps in rostering at my TOC the same as conductor managers - as stated before, this all stopped as it wasn't ran past the unions beforehand and both ASLEF and RMT kicked up a stink and had the practise stopped.

Absolutely it should be about what level of contingency is acceptable, including when and how it is used. I have to admit, I've not read up on the RMT's reasoning for this strike so I will see if it is similar to what I've seen or not.
 
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Wyrleybart

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So just to clarify, Driver Managers are indeed able to be classed as contingency drivers. They were used to fill temporary gaps in rostering at my TOC the same as conductor managers - as stated before, this all stopped as it wasn't ran past the unions beforehand and both ASLEF and RMT kicked up a stink and had the practise stopped.

Absolutely it should be about what level of contingency is acceptable, including when and how it is used. I have to admit, I've not read up on the RMT's reasoning for this strike so I will see if it is similar to what I've seen or not.
I have worked for my current employer for the last 21 years and in all that time the only time a driver manager was allowed to sit in the seat was for their assessment, and a competent driver had to be in the cab with them. Indeed, any train movement under the company's authority had to have a company driver in the cab irrespective of whether they signed route and traction or not.
 

SCDR_WMR

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I have worked for my current employer for the last 21 years and in all that time the only time a driver manager was allowed to sit in the seat was for their assessment, and a competent driver had to be in the cab with them. Indeed, any train movement under the company's authority had to have a company driver in the cab irrespective of whether they signed route and traction or not.
Well as we've noticed, different TOCs clearly operate in different ways, I've physically worked with a DM driving a train as a contingency. He was previously a driver no long before however, so that may muddy the water somewhat
 

LowLevel

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I have worked for my current employer for the last 21 years and in all that time the only time a driver manager was allowed to sit in the seat was for their assessment, and a competent driver had to be in the cab with them. Indeed, any train movement under the company's authority had to have a company driver in the cab irrespective of whether they signed route and traction or not.
Just this Sunday gone I had a driver manager driving me due to driver shortages. I've also given a train over to a head of function acting as guard due to a guard shortage within the last week. These are hard times and when all efforts are clearly being made to continue recruiting I have no issue with it.
 

43066

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Well as we've noticed, different TOCs clearly operate in different ways, I've physically worked with a DM driving a train as a contingency. He was previously a driver no long before however, so that may muddy the water somewhat

Just this Sunday gone I had a driver manager driving me due to driver shortages. I've also given a train over to a head of function acting as guard due to a guard shortage within the last week. These are hard times and when all efforts are clearly being made to continue recruiting I have no issue with it.

Traditional driver managers who are qualified to undertake assessments, investigations etc. are former drivers who retain full competence, albeit not always over the entirety of the routes and traction all their direct reports sign.

Some TOCs also employ another class of manager, who are really more like administrators, and deal with day to day management responsibilities such as return to work interviews. They don’t tend to be qualified drivers, so this is probably where the distinction lies.

There would be no concern with fully qualified driver managers (and presumably guard managers) undertaking their safety critical roles if necessary, due to strikes or shortages. The worry is where office staff are being trained up as stand in guards who will inevitably lack experience and, as alluded to above, won’t necessarily have been assessed as rigorously.
 
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Bald Rick

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I have worked for my current employer for the last 21 years and in all that time the only time a driver manager was allowed to sit in the seat was for their assessment, and a competent driver had to be in the cab with them. Indeed, any train movement under the company's authority had to have a company driver in the cab irrespective of whether they signed route and traction or not.

I have close friends who are driver managers, one of them drives at least weekly.
 

ComUtoR

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I have close friends who are driver managers, one of them drives at least weekly.


Our Driver Managers are required to drive a minimum number of hours every month to maintain competence.
 

CyrusWuff

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has the dispute been settled, and if so how?
The last update I can find says that XC threatened a legal challenge and the RMT received legal advice essentially saying they'd lose, so they cancelled the strikes going forwards.
 

Wyrleybart

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I have close friends who are driver managers, one of them drives at least weekly.
I don't doubt what you say, but I wonder if he tells the Control he is in the chair and therefore in charge of the trains he is driving. It is not possible to allocate Driver Managers to the trains in the system (Integrale), but the Control need to be aware of who is in charge of each leg of each train in case of any eventualities / irregularities.
 

Bald Rick

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I don't doubt what you say, but I wonder if he tells the Control he is in the chair and therefore in charge of the trains he is driving. It is not possible to allocate Driver Managers to the trains in the system (Integrale), but the Control need to be aware of who is in charge of each leg of each train in case of any eventualities / irregularities.

I am certain he does.
 

Efini92

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I don't doubt what you say, but I wonder if he tells the Control he is in the chair and therefore in charge of the trains he is driving. It is not possible to allocate Driver Managers to the trains in the system (Integrale), but the Control need to be aware of who is in charge of each leg of each train in case of any eventualities / irregularities.
I think it depends on the TOC’s agreement with ASLEF. There was one recently, could be southeastern but I’m not sure, that agreed driver managers could drive to cover service shortages.
 

43066

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I am certain he does.

I bet he doesn’t! DMs (IME) will often drive a portion of the journey they’re assessing a driver over, or not, without notifying anyone of change overs.

There’s certainly an element of trust involved. For example it would be somewhat awkward if a manager tripped TPWS grids while in the chair and then blamed it on the driver they were assessing.

Then again I’m not sure there’d be much incentive for them to do so, because having incidents seems to be less of a bar to being a DM than it can be to moving TOCs as a driver (I don’t mean that in a “loaded” way, just that they’re very different jobs).
 
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