Longest through journeys for first generation DMU sets

[Springs Branch]

Oh yes, 1G20, see attached.
"Not advertised"
-------------
from Section A WTT 4 MAY 1970 to 2 MAY 1971 (or until further notice)

True enough, it was Not Advertised that year. The 1970-71 LMR Passenger Timetable did not show the late-season 23:00 version of 1G20.
It did show the 14:30 departure running between June & 5 Sept 1970, going through to Birmingham and also calling at Acton Bridge, Hartford & Winsford.

In May 1971-72, the 23:00 ex-Blackpool was advertised in the LMR Public Timetable, along with the punishing 02:45 arrival at New Street - and diversion via Chester between Warrington & Crewe (electrification works), just to add to the fun!
See attached - it's the column with the red arrow.

I also see that by 1974 the train had become 1K05 23:00 DMU D2 Blackpool to Crewe "8 September to 27 October", arriving 00:45 with the only onward connection being 1A02 00:40 Liverpool-Euston (01:48 from Crewe) which went "via Birmingham Area" but not calling at Birmingham New Street but instead being routed via Bescot and Aston.

It seems the publicly-advertised late night train through to Birmingham only ran for the one year (Sep/Oct 1971). By the May 1972 timetable, it was already running as 1K05 truncated to Crewe. Still 23:00 ex-Blackpool, Crewe arrival at 01:21, but no West Midlands connection there until a Holyhead train at 03:52. And still diverted via Chester along the way.

Thinking about the stops made by the 23:00 departure, it would probably only be used by Blackpool day-trippers getting themselves home to Preston, Wigan and Warrington and not by any appreciable number travelling south of that. Certainly if I'd lived in the Brum area and fancied an excursion to see the Illuminations, I'd be booking myself on a cheap, convivial and comfortable local coach operator for a spin up the M6, and not doing it in a DMU.

 

[Grumpy]

Certainly some long DMU turns highlighted in this thread. What was the expected range of these units between refuelling stops?

I recall a figure of 550 miles used for the WR suburban DMU's

 

[MadMac]

Agreed the , but these were specials not normal service.

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Fully remember the Mexican bean but was not a great distance for a 1st gen. Always wondered why the Swindon Intrercity units displaced from The Edinburgh Glasgow service couldnt have been deployed on the far North or WHL. After all a 5 car unit would have had 1200hp without the added weight of a locomotive

They tried a Swindon on the Far North, see HERE.

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I had the misfortune to have an 8 coach dmu formation from Aberdeen to Glasgow Buchanan Street on a Summer Saturday in 1961. I would have waited for something better, but had arranged to meet my parents after getting to Glasgow, and had not anticipated finding a dmu on such a working.

The dmu was 2 x 3 coaches of what became Class 107, with a 2 coach dmu in the middle (can't remember if that was a MetCam or Cravens set without checking my old records).

A 107 would have been a VERY unusual visitor to Aberdeen! One set did make it to Kittybrewster.

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My post 16 links to 1976 BBC video by Martin Young featuring that train, about 2 minutes in. Here it is again, how we were; https://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/a-fair-fortnight/zmg7cqt

Note they are fitted with window bars, presumably for the Cumbrian Coast. Looks like 108 units for the first 4 cars followed by a 101. 7 was probably the only platform in Queen Street that could take that length. Given the 9:15 departure, they were presumably sent empty from South Gosforth and fuelled at Eastfield on the way to Queen Street.

 

[marsker]

They tried a Swindon on the Far North, see HERE.

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A 107 would have been a VERY unusual visitor to Aberdeen! One set did make it to Kittybrewster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2022 ==


Note they are fitted with window bars, presumably for the Cumbrian Coast. Looks like 108 units for the first 4 cars followed by a 101. 7 was probably the only platform in Queen Street that could take that length. Given the 9:15 departure, they were presumably sent empty from South Gosforth and fuelled at Eastfield on the way to Queen Street.

By the 1970s South Gosforth DMUs, or at least most of them, had window bars fitted for the North Tyneside line. There were quite a few bridges with "Limited Clearance! markers and I believe North Shields tunnel was an issue.
South Gosforth didn't provide stock for the Cumbrian Coast line, that was always worked from LMR depots, though which I don't know.

 

[hexagon789]

South Gosforth didn't provide stock for the Cumbrian Coast line, that was always worked from LMR depots, though which I don't know.

Carlisle later Heaton I believe

 

[MadMac]

By the 1970s South Gosforth DMUs, or at least most of them, had window bars fitted for the North Tyneside line. There were quite a few bridges with "Limited Clearance! markers and I believe North Shields tunnel was an issue.
South Gosforth didn't provide stock for the Cumbrian Coast line, that was always worked from LMR depots, though which I don't know.

Fair point. Kingmoor would have supplied units for Cumbria at that time, but I think Heaton took over in the late 80s when Kingmoor closed?

 

[Gloster]

The Derby Lightweights were based at Upperby until they were moved to Kingmoor just before withdrawal. The 108s went to Kingmoor in 1969, but moved to Heaton in 1988. (I think.)

 

[chorleyjeff]

In the early 1970s there was a timetabled Summer SO return train between Birmingham New St and Blackpool North which was booked for a DMU.

During the height of summer (June to early September) this train returned from Blackpool at a very conventional 14:30.

But unlike most Summer SO extras (which ran out of steam late August or early September), this train continued to run through the Blackpool Illuminations season. From mid-September to the end of October, departure of the return train from Blackpool was much later, at 23:00.

While Brum had plenty of DMUs going to the seaside on Saturdays, and 121 miles each way to Blackpool was not the longest, this late-night return trip always sounded to me like one of the most miserable - in a weary, "had-enough-and-just-want-to-get-home" kind of way.

It was booked for a low-density DMU unit as opposed to one of Tyseley's non-gangwayed suburban fleet (but not to say a high-density set wouldn't appear if necessary). Even so, I can't imagine a much worse end to a day out than sitting for 3¾ hours in the early hours of the morning in a 1st Gen DMU, alternating between the vibration & rattle at full throttle down the WCML, and waiting in the dark at some random location to get past a Saturday night possession for WCML electrification work. Especially if Blackpool's October weather had been unkind and you were already cold and wet, as well as tired and half drunk.

To top off the whole experience, you would be deposited in the delightful environment of Birmingham New Street at 02:45 on a Sunday morning, with the prospect of a Night Bus for the last leg home.

I read an accident report involving a late night returning excursion from Blackpool to Birmingham and the loco was a Horwich Crab - unlikely to do more than trundle through the night. I also remember using the 11pm ish steam train in the late 1950s B'ham train from Blackpool Central to Preston which used the direct line to Kirkham. A London train departed around the same time. Seems people were OK about being decanted into a city centre in the earlyish hours after a day out - folk were rather mor stoical then or, maybe, had no choice if they wanted a day out in Blackpool.

 

[Taunton]

Note they are fitted with window bars, presumably for the Cumbrian Coast. Looks like 108 units for the first 4 cars followed by a 101. 7 was probably the only platform in Queen Street that could take that length. Given the 9:15 departure, they were presumably sent empty from South Gosforth and fuelled at Eastfield on the way to Queen Street.

I'm conscious that the film shows an 09.15 departure, but the timetabled train I saw depart Queen Street in summer 1974 with a Gosforth unit was in the afternoon, making the round trip from Newcastle. Possibly the programme has spliced two separate moments together. The load was nothing like shown in the film.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

7 was probably the only platform in Queen Street that could take that length.

Although not as long as platform 7 which the Whitley Bay train is seen leaving from, platforms 2, 5 & 6 could all take 7 Mk1 coaches plus a loco on either end (I think 6 took eight plus 2 locos) so any of these would have taken an 8 or 9 car DMU especially as DMU vehicles were shorter than Mk1s. The Kings Cross HST tended to use 6 or 7 albeit not fully platformed and fouling pointwork and there was a period when trains of 10 and 11 coaches used platform 7 on Sundays, again not fully platformed and fouling.

 

[Grumpy]

In the latter years of through running on the GC, the Newcastle-Bournemouth through train was truncated in winter months and replaced by a Neville Hill DMU running as far as Banbury

 

[Magdalia]

In the latter years of through running on the GC, the Newcastle-Bournemouth through train was truncated in winter months and replaced by a Neville Hill DMU running as far as Banbury

The DMU ran for 3 winters 1959-60, 1960-61 and 1961-62. It ran from York to Banbury and back, through working from/to Newcastle via the GC only happened in summer, when the train was always loco hauled. The end to end distance York to Banbury is somewhere around 145-150 miles.

 

[Grumpy]

The DMU ran for 3 winters 1959-60, 1960-61 and 1961-62. It ran from York to Banbury and back, through working from/to Newcastle via the GC only happened in summer, when the train was always loco hauled. The end to end distance York to Banbury is somewhere around 145-150 miles.

Which is still a fair distance. Given that the OP specified "where the units used were perhaps not very suitable" and that the Neville Hill units were 2+3 seating and that many of the other journeys quoted above were in units with 2+2 seating, this must be one of the leading contenders. At least for a regular daily diagram as opposed to an excursion or occasional relief.

 

[Magdalia]

It is well short of Norwich-Birmingham which was 175 miles and operated daily for 7 years.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

It is well short of Norwich-Birmingham which was 175 miles and operated daily for 7 years.

In my experience this was provided by Cross Country units, so arguably the sort of work they were designed for albeit perhaps one of the longest routes but still a valid contender.

 

[Magdalia]

In my experience this was provided by Cross Country units, so arguably the sort of work they were designed for albeit perhaps one of the longest routes but still a valid contender.

Only the trains covered by the LMR units were usually Swindon cross country units, which were laboriously slow.

The trains booked for Norwich DMUs were low density units such as Cravens, MetCams or BRCWs.

 

[Grumpy]

In my experience this was provided by Cross Country units, so arguably the sort of work they were designed for albeit perhaps one of the longest routes but still a valid contender.

Indeed. Class 120's built with a buffet. Luxury travel.

 

[Magdalia]

Indeed. Class 120's built with a buffet. Luxury travel.

Were the buffets ever used on the Etches Park based sets?

I don't remember them ever being used on the Norwich services.

 

[Western 52]

Were the buffets ever used on the Etches Park based sets?

I don't remember them ever being used on the Norwich services.

I travelled in the 120 and similar 119 sets many times but never saw the buffet open on any route. I think their use must have been rare by the 70s. I wonder when and where they were last used?

 

[Pigeon]

There were occasional appearances of buffet DMU vehicles on Birmingham-Worcesters in the 80s. I remember the buffet bit being so firmly shut up it looked like it hadn't been opened at all for years and years, and sometimes it wasn't even entirely obvious what it was.

 

[Western 52]

I think most of the 120 trailer cars that were built with buffets retained them, disused, until they were withdrawn. Many of the 119 trailers had that area converted to luggage space for the Reading to Gatwick service.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I travelled in the 120 and similar 119 sets many times but never saw the buffet open on any route. I think their use must have been rare by the 70s. I wonder when and where they were last used?

Perhaps last used on the Inverness Aberdeen route where the buffet was open on some but not all services until replaced by loco hauled stock circa 1980, and until the mid 70s on the one unit from the Inverness fleet which was used on the summer dated Glasgow Oban service until initially the cl120 was replaced by the refurbished cl101 and then the train was withdrawn from the timetable.

I do not recall being in a cl120 or cl119 with the buffet open anywhere else.

 

[Taunton]

I travelled in the 120 and similar 119 sets many times but never saw the buffet open on any route. I think their use must have been rare by the 70s. I wonder when and where they were last used?

I don't think the buffets were used on many of the Swindon Cross-Country units (120s to you modernists) from the day they were built. Never even heard of them being used on the Western Region. With an oversized, invariably empty, first class, plus an excessively large guards' compartment for parcels that rarely materialised, and the unused buffets, a three car set only really had two cars of worthwhile accommodation.

Possibly the Aberdeen-Inverness sets were the only ones used and advertised. There were a couple of such services in the WR timetable but I believe they were done with trolleys. They would be a nuisance to service, needing propane gas tank changeover facilities at dmu depots, which I don't believe they had.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Possibly the Aberdeen-Inverness sets were the only ones used and advertised. There were a couple of such services in the WR timetable but I believe they were done with trolleys. They would be a nuisance to service, needing propane gas tank changeover facilities at dmu depots, which I don't believe they had.

Inverness and Aberdeen would both have had facilities to swap over propane gas containers when required for the several catering cars based at both locations albeit in the carriage sidings rather than the depot, and potentially the set which spent each summer at Eastfield for the Oban service could have been dropped into Cowlairs CS when a gas changeover was required.
EDIT: Although the Inter City units operating on the Edinburgh Glasgow route were allocated to Leith South depot those finishing the working day and starting the working day in Glasgow could also have required gas container changes again possibly at Cowlairs CS or perhaps Eastfield had that capability.

 

[ecmlthrash15]

Anyone remember having to travel in hot weather on old BR DMUs? One of the worst I recall was 1983 Sleaford to Doncaster. I think it was a period of on/off striking by BR. Those trains could get very hot. It took nearly 2 hours in what felt like an oven.

 

[randyrippley]

I don't think the buffets were used on many of the Swindon Cross-Country units (120s to you modernists) from the day they were built. Never even heard of them being used on the Western Region. With an oversized, invariably empty, first class, plus an excessively large guards' compartment for parcels that rarely materialised, and the unused buffets, a three car set only really had two cars of worthwhile accommodation.

Possibly the Aberdeen-Inverness sets were the only ones used and advertised. There were a couple of such services in the WR timetable but I believe they were done with trolleys. They would be a nuisance to service, needing propane gas tank changeover facilities at dmu depots, which I don't believe they had.

The buffets were manned on the 119 and 120 fleets on the summer weekend Bristol-Weymouth services in the 1960s.
As far as I can remember all food was cold - curling sandwiches, Robinsons fruit pies, biscuits..........Only thing hot was the water for maxpax tea/coffee which as far as I can remember was in insulated urns and could well have been preheated

 

[ecmlthrash15]

In the early 80s Cambridge to Doncaster (march to Spalding line)
By the mid 80s Cambridge to Lincoln (via Peterborough)
Cambridge to Birmingham I have seen

 

[Taunton]

The buffets were manned on the 119 and 120 fleets on the summer weekend Bristol-Weymouth services in the 1960s.
As far as I can remember all food was cold - curling sandwiches, Robinsons fruit pies, biscuits..........Only thing hot was the water for maxpax tea/coffee which as far as I can remember was in insulated urns and could well have been preheated

Interesting. Maxpax came along I think in the mid-1970s. If the hot water came at the start of the journey that would overcome the propane gas issue. Then it's just really a trolley service, which many dmus were provided with on long summer runs then, transferring between units at station stops, and not using any built-in facilities at all, with stock in the guards' van. There was an article in a magazine of the era by an enthusiast who took a university-days summer job doing so.

I wonder how the steward washed their hands?

Presumably on summer weekends at Weymouth "cold" food loaded at Bristol would, by now, be anything but - did they ever load it in insulated containers with dry ice packed at the bottom, or was that too sophisticated?

The first cola drink I ever had, as a child, was in a buffet car on Dover to Victoria. I doubt my mother would have purchased it if there was anything else. Bad enough that we had to "swing round a pole", a soubriquet she invented that day I think, which was used disparagingly about BR miniature buffets for ever afterwards! It was Pepsi, not chilled at all, awful, and I've always blamed that experience to this day for preferring the taste of the competitive product. Sorry, back to dmus.

 

[randyrippley]

Interesting. Maxpax came along I think in the mid-1970s. If the hot water came at the start of the journey that would overcome the propane gas issue. Then it's just really a trolley service, which many dmus were provided with on long summer runs then, transferring between units at station stops, and not using any built-in facilities at all, with stock in the guards' van. There was an article in a magazine of the era by an enthusiast who took a university-days summer job doing so.

I wonder how the steward washed their hands?

Presumably on summer weekends at Weymouth "cold" food loaded at Bristol would, by now, be anything but - did they ever load it in insulated containers with dry ice packed at the bottom, or was that too sophisticated?

The first cola drink I ever had, as a child, was in a buffet car on Dover to Victoria. I doubt my mother would have purchased it if there was anything else. Bad enough that we had to "swing round a pole", a soubriquet she invented that day I think, which was used disparagingly about BR miniature buffets for ever afterwards! It was Pepsi, not chilled at all, awful, and I've always blamed that experience to this day for preferring the taste of the competitive product. Sorry, back to dmus.

maybe it was some other tea/coffee system not Maxpax, but same principle - preheated water in urns.
Dry ice? Nothing under the display shelves.
As for cold drinks, I think the choice of still Kia-Ora in those rectangular ribbed cellophane "bottles" or fizzy from a UK bottler - possibly Panda Pops? No foreign coke or pepsi

 

[Taunton]

Dry ice? Nothing under the display shelves.
As for cold drinks, I think the choice of still Kia-Ora in those rectangular ribbed cellophane "bottles" or fizzy from a UK bottler - possibly Panda Pops? No foreign coke or pepsi

I think the Southern Region still had their emu refreshment cars staffed and managed by the Pullman company at the time, dating from a Southern Railway contract. Partly owned by BR but not wholly, and thus independently managed. So likely where Pepsi had managed to penetrate. It was in a can with a straw stuck in it.