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Russia invades Ukraine

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Rolling your countries troops in to your neighbouring country is where I would start as a definition.
Okay, we will have to agree to differ on that, the indiscriminate shelling of civilians from late 2014 is where I would start, I’ll try and see if the photos I have taken during various visits are postable. It was truly shocking to my “Western imperialist” (her words) eyes.
 
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Iskra

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But it isn’t just him who has said it. The Reuters article from 2018 that I shared upthread made it clear there have been concerning militias operating in that part of Eastern Europe for some time.
As I've said upthread, Putin is mates with far right biker gang the 'Night Wolves.' Would someone be okay to invade Russia to sort them out?

I'm not disputing the existence of the Azov militias, but it is just a flimsy excuse to snatch Ukraine away from the West, nothing more.
 

Bevan Price

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Tsar Putin does not seem to comprehend that he is the reason why former Russian colonies in Eastern Europe wanted to be part of NATO.
 

yorksrob

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Okay, we will have to agree to differ on that, the indiscriminate shelling of civilians from late 2014 is where I would start, I’ll try and see if the photos I have taken during various visits are postable. It was truly shocking to my “Western imperialist” (her words) eyes.

I don't agree with shelling of civilians.

Ukraine is not a perfect country but Russia has no right to invade it.

I find it fascinating how your missus is able to throw about terms such as 'imperialism' without ever having heard of the Russian empire. Quite impressive I must say.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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As I've said upthread, Putin is mates with far right biker gang the 'Night Wolves.' Would someone be okay to invade Russia to sort them out?

I'm not disputing the existence of the Azov militias, but it is just a flimsy excuse to snatch Ukraine away from the West, nothing more.

No, and I wasn’t saying it was, merely that it has allowed the pretext to be created.
 
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I don't agree with shelling of civilians.

Ukraine is not a perfect country but Russia has no right to invade it.

I find it fascinating how your missus is able to throw about terms such as 'imperialism' without ever having heard of the Russian empire. Quite impressive I must say.
Oh, she’s quite well aware of history all right, $DEITY help me if I get something wrong.

“Heavy words are lightly thrown” - The Smiths
 

DustyBin

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Without the Azov’s he’d have just found a different excuse!

Agreed. The Azov Battalion/neo-Nazi stuff is for domestic consumption and no doubt some people within Russia will swallow it. That’s not to deny their existence incidentally, but this war isn’t about them.
 

GusB

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I can't believe they are forcing 59 year olds to fight.
I don't believe they are. From what I heard, the Ukrainian government were stopping men up to the age of 60 leaving the country, but that does not necessarily mean they're going to be stuck on the front line.

Ukraine is facing an existential crisis at the moment. Imagine for one moment that it was us in their position - wouldn't you be willing to do your bit to help defend your country against such an aggressor?
 
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She sounds like the Kremlin Stooge.
Well, she’s just seen this and thrown her hands up in the air. I think she actually despairs of the shallow, binary approach to thinking, with everything having to be crystallised down to ‘us’ or ‘them’. Suitable for a 140/280 character posting medium but misses the deeper underlying and long-standing reasons why things may or may not happen.

Wonder what happened to Minsk II? Who stopped that from being implemented?
 

johncrossley

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Ukraine is facing an existential crisis at the moment. Imagine for one moment that it was us in their position - wouldn't you be willing to do your bit to help defend your country against such an aggressor?

I'm not patriotic and I don't want to die.
 

DanNCL

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Seen reports that China have abstained in the vote to condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine at the UN Security Council.

Of course Russia vetoed the motion, but China’s abstention is significant as it means Russia was isolated in voting against it, and shows the Putin won’t necessarily have China’s support in this.
 

Trackman

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International diplomatic Ukraine invasion experts in the pub earlier with beer degrees.
Best one was: Sink all the Russian subs and shoot down all the military planes (good luck with that), bomb the whole of Russia with conventional weapons so they wont retaliate with nuclear weapons (Good luck with that too). I just stood there shaking my head.
 

Spamcan81

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I'm not patriotic and I don't want to die.
That is the one certainty in life - we will all die.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

International diplomatic Ukraine invasion experts in the pub earlier with beer degrees.
Best one was: Sink all the Russian subs and shoot down all the military planes (good luck with that), bomb the whole of Russia with conventional weapons so they wont retaliate with nuclear weapons (Good luck with that too). I just stood there shaking my head.

The internet is full of would be generals too. Most don't have a clue.
 

najaB

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Ukraine has asked for additional military support. One presumes this would have to be brought in by land from Poland, as I guess no NATO government would risk flying into the country.

The last thing we would need is a UK/US/Other country plane being shot down by Russian air defences.
 

Gostav

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Seen reports that China have abstained in the vote to condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine at the UN Security Council.

Of course Russia vetoed the motion, but China’s abstention is significant as it means Russia was isolated in voting against it, and shows the Putin won’t necessarily have China’s support in this.
I believe they more like substantial support such as trade agreement.
On Thursday, China's customs administration also said they would begin allowing wheat imports as of February 24 from Russia. The two countries had announced an agreement earlier this month for China to import Russian wheat during Putin's visit to Beijing to meet with President Xi and attend the opening of the Beijing Winter Olympics.
The article does not mention the specific details of the wheat trade agreement. For example, China allows wheat from all regions of Russia to be exported to China. Previously, China only allowed wheat from designated regions. If you don't think it matters, keep in mind that almost every major grain export countries has cut production since the Covid-19 pandemic.
 
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Gloster

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Seen reports that China have abstained in the vote to condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine at the UN Security Council.

Of course Russia vetoed the motion, but China’s abstention is significant as it means Russia was isolated in voting against it, and shows the Putin won’t necessarily have China’s support in this.
China knew perfectly well that Russia would veto the motion, so it knew that it would fail anyway: abstaining was not going to change the result much. It might annoy the Russians a bit, but they are not going to do anything drastic as they will hope that China will eventually support them. China will have decided that it is probably eventually going to upset one side or the other, but there is no need to make a decisive move until it either has to or it is clear which option is most in China’s interests.
 

najaB

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China will have decided that it is probably eventually going to upset one side or the other, but there is no need to make a decisive move until it either has to or it is clear which option is most in China’s interests.
Agreed. The Chinese government will act in China's best interests, which may well not align with Russia's.
 

Roast Veg

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What do you mean by 'officially' an English exonym? Commonly used certainly but not in the same category as Rome or Warsaw, where only the terminally-pretentious would use the name in the relevant national language.
Officially as in you'll find it in school geography textbooks . I agree that in most conversations, the use of endonyms where popular exonyms exist can be pretentious (Chernobyl is a good example). Some less popular ones are pretty interchangeable, like Cologne and Koln.
Seeing as the Government of Ukraine has an official campaign promoting both the use of Ukrainian-derived spelling of placenames, and referring to the country as Ukraine (without the definite article), I'm going to have to say that your personal experience is trumped by actual facts.
I didn't know about these programs, but I'm not surprised that they exist. It seems rather odd to have a second order exonym anyway.

There are further reports emerging about the low morale of the Russian soldiers - apparently they are struggling for food and fuel and are attempting to buy from Ukrainian locals in the North East. If true, then the next phase of the war will be down to whichever side can set up supply lines most effectively, as Ukraine will not want to be besieged.
 

philosopher

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International diplomatic Ukraine invasion experts in the pub earlier with beer degrees.
Best one was: Sink all the Russian subs and shoot down all the military planes (good luck with that), bomb the whole of Russia with conventional weapons so they wont retaliate with nuclear weapons (Good luck with that too). I just stood there shaking my head.
The difficultly for the UK, US, Europe, etc is that if don’t condemn Putin enough or help Ukraine too little, then Russia may conquer Ukraine fairly easily and may feel emboldened and decide he can invade more territory such as Moldova or the Caucasus. However if they punish Putin too much and / or provide too much support to Ukraine then you risk starting a much larger conflict.

Ideally you need a response that makes this invasion costly for Putin’s Russia that it puts off Putin from ever trying something like this again and perhaps leads to his downfall, but does not risk a wider conflict.
 

Roast Veg

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The difficultly for the UK, US, Europe, etc is that if don’t condemn Putin enough or help Ukraine too little, then Russia may conquer Ukraine fairly easily and may feel emboldened and decide he can invade more territory such as Moldova or the Caucasus. However if they punish Putin too much and / or provide too much support to Ukraine then you risk starting a much larger conflict.
Even with Russia's currently very large cash reserves, to follow up one invasion with another immediately would be prohibitively expensive and economically damaging.
 

Annetts key

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May I remind people that technically we have already been in conflict with Russia in the past. They killed two people in the U.K.

And there’s been incidents with Russian military forces in other countries in the past. Okay, all accidental and very small incidents.

Do you really think that Russia wants a nuclear war? I mean, really?
 

Gloster

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Do you really think that Russia wants a nuclear war? I mean, really?
The question is not so much, “Does Russia want a nuclear war,” as, “Might Putin want a nuclear war.” If he sees it all falling apart or the goons coming from him, can we be sure he wouldn’t take everybody else down? There is already speculation, which I take with a large amount of salt, as to whether he is already losing touch with reality. ‘Made it, Ma! Top of the world!’
 

GusB

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I'm not patriotic and I don't want to die.
I suppose that's a fair enough response but, as others have pointed out, death is inevitable.

Let's bring it down to a slightly more local level, and without having any knowledge of your own property-owning status - how would you feel if a foreign aggressor turned up and turfed you out of your home? Would you try to defend your position?
 

johncrossley

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I suppose that's a fair enough response but, as others have pointed out, death is inevitable.

Let's bring it down to a slightly more local level, and without having any knowledge of your own property-owning status - how would you feel if a foreign aggressor turned up and turfed you out of your home? Would you try to defend your position?

It depends what the danger is. If he's going to kill me if I don't hand over my house, then there is only one sensible choice.
 

Annetts key

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Well, she’s just seen this and thrown her hands up in the air. I think she actually despairs of the shallow, binary approach to thinking, with everything having to be crystallised down to ‘us’ or ‘them’. Suitable for a 140/280 character posting medium but misses the deeper underlying and long-standing reasons why things may or may not happen.
Err, ALL decisions are basically binary… We humans just dress them up and then think that they are not binary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It depends what the danger is. If he's going to kill me if I don't hand over my house, then there is only one sensible choice.
May kill you anyway…

Would you prefer to try to attempt to disarm them or not?
 

AlterEgo

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It depends what the danger is. If he's going to kill me if I don't hand over my house, then there is only one sensible choice.
Depends if you have a weapon to fight back with.

If this was happening in East London I would be on the street with a rifle if the army tossed me one.
 

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