Russia invades Ukraine

[takno]

Seeing as the Government of Ukraine has an official campaign promoting both the use of Ukrainian-derived spelling of placenames, and referring to the country as Ukraine (without the definite article), I'm going to have to say that your personal experience is trumped by actual facts.
The first time, maybe. But when they continue to do so despite the difference being explained to them...

The government of Ukraine has been running a number of campaigns over time, with varying degrees of support from real Ukrainians. Similarly the Scottish government likes to spend time trying to convince us that Scots is in any meaningful sense a language independent of English, but very few Scots, Scottish residents, or Scots speakers particularly buy into it.

If I picked up all language "the first time" then I'd be speaking a couple of dozen of them fluently by now. With the greatest of respect it appears to be you using language as a stick to beat people with here. Apologies if our long-learned habits don't meet your rather exacting expectations.

 

[DustyBin]

Maybe those, like myself do believe that we should be willing to defend Ukraine militarily, if asked by their Government to do so, *have* considered those implications. But maybe, we have also considered the implications of appeasing dictators who constantly respond to appeasement by coming back for more, and maybe we have also considered the lessons of the Cold War, when a willingness to escalate if necessary was arguably precisely what prevented a full scale conflict from happening.

And maybe we have also considered the likely consequences for Taiwan if China gets the message that the the West isn't willing to defend allies when they are invaded.

On the basis NATO could wipe the floor with Russia’s conventional forces, do you not think they’re trying to weigh up how serious Putin was when he made his thinly veiled nuclear war threat? Are you comfortable it was bluster? I’d absolutely love to see squadrons of Typhoons and F-35s wiping out Russia’s invasion force but at this moment in time I think what we’re doing is sensible. Should a NATO ally such as Poland or a Baltic state be attacked then we’d have to act and I’d accept the risk.

Make no mistake, I’m extremely uncomfortable with us not supporting Ukraine militarily, I actually feel rather ashamed, but I honestly don’t believe it’s the right course of action, at this moment in time. We’re not in appeasement territory yet IMO.

Not that surprising. His own army is struggling to achieve that objective without taking significant casualties and taking far longer than I'm sure Putin had expected. So trying to get the other side to help is an obvious move. Doubt it'll have much effect though.

That’s how I read it too. I think it would suit Putin for this to end now, it’s already turned into a bloodbath.

Reports are the Chechen forces are being mobilised soon to help the invasion, which is advantageous to Putin not just because they're fierce fighters, but their causalities are less politically toxic to him. If I was leading the resistance I'd be trying to muster up as much propaganda as possible towards Chechen forces, telling them they're being exploited by Putin for his own moral benefit, where their deaths/injuries are more favourable to Putin than other Russian soliders.

Further to the above I wonder if they’re seen as a genuine asset, merely cannon fodder, or it’s actually a slightly desperate move by Putin to try and get the job done.

 

[43096]

You couldn't make it up if you tried. Given they are being the voice of reason I put forward a motion for them to take the place of Russia in Eurovision.

That would be interesting given the Taliban have banned music in public!

 

[takno]

The discussion about 'the' Ukraine was in relation to a member of this forum who seemed anxious to belittle Ukrainian national identity.

I didn't read most of the posts from the person who was getting criticised for it thanks to a pre-existing ignore I have set. I didn't get the impression I was missing out.

My point is primarily that people using The Ukraine or Kiev are far more likely to be doing so out of habit or stubbornness than to make some kind of obscure political point. The judgemental hypercorrectness of some responders isn't really an argument in itself, and mostly just gets people's backs up.

Anyway, I think most of us are agreed that there is an appalling and wholly unjustifiable invasion occurring, that Russia is the aggressor, and that all the attempts at justification are based on lies. Doesn't seem much point falling out over the niceties of language

 

[brad465]

Cold War Steve hitting the spot with this adaptation:

https://twitter.com/Coldwar_Steve/status/1497313000369369096/photo/1

 

[GusB]

I'm somewhat heartened to see that Russian citizens are up in arms about this, and taking considerable risks to their own safety by taking to the streets in protest. This will only escalate over time as news of mounting Russian casualties comes to light.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that there are casualties on the Ukrainian side too, but I think the Russian forces are in for a bit of a bloody nose, regardless of the outcome. There was a news report (Channel 4) earlier that said that some Ukrainians were heading back from the border, presumably having made sure their families were out of harm's way.

No side is going to come out of this well, but I think Putin will get more than he bargained for.

 

[birchesgreen]

This is curious

Russian health ministry documents show how Russia is preparing for casualties | ITV News

The document indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency and has ordered health organisations to identify medical staff ready to relocate. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

I have been given a copy of document issued today by the Russian Ministry of Health which shows it is anticipating a major medical event in which doctors have to be drafted from across the country.

It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency and has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate and work. The document from the Russian Ministry of Health is signed by the deputy health minister and dated today - February 25.

Casualties worse than expected or are they planning something more?

 

[Annetts key]

This is another case where 'what happened just before the incident' is missing from the most commonly shown clip, which makes it look like the tank had been going straight ahead. There are some more views here:
https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-...after-military-vehicle-runs-over-car-12551231
If you look from about 17s it appears from the marks on the road that the tank had just made a left turn and continued that turn.
Whether that was accidental or deliberate is a different question. Any one time tank drivers here to comment on handling when driven at speed on tarmac ?

I don’t know anything about driving a tracked vehicle, having never done it. But I do know a bit about how they work. They turn by reducing the speed of one set of tracks, and hence do intentionally skid when they turn sharply.

But they don’t normally skid like a wheeled vehicle does when driven in a straight line.

Watching the video, it appears to me that the driver of the tank deliberately changed direction in order to intercept the car. That is, it was a deliberate act.

 

[squizzler]

On the basis NATO could wipe the floor with Russia’s conventional forces, do you not think they’re trying to weigh up how serious Putin was when he made his thinly veiled nuclear war threat? Are you comfortable it was bluster? I’d absolutely love to see squadrons of Typhoons and F-35s wiping out Russia’s invasion force but at this moment in time I think what we’re doing is sensible. Should a NATO ally such as Poland or a Baltic state be attacked then we’d have to act and I’d accept the risk.

Make no mistake, I’m extremely uncomfortable with us not supporting Ukraine militarily, I actually feel rather ashamed, but I honestly don’t believe it’s the right course of action, at this moment in time. We’re not in appeasement territory yet IMO.

There is no point in bothering to “weigh up” anything said by Putin at this point. Everything he has said has been lies.

I fear NATO not directly being involved does not make a horrific outcome of some sort less likely, probably actually more. You don’t assume a mad dog won’t bite you if you leave it alone.

 

[Scotrail314209]

This is curious

Russian health ministry documents show how Russia is preparing for casualties | ITV News

The document indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency and has ordered health organisations to identify medical staff ready to relocate. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

Casualties worse than expected or are they planning something more?

I believe it may be the first one.

It's widely reported that the Ukrainians are putting up a hard fight, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Russians are sustaining more casualties than they thought.

 

[najaB]

With the greatest of respect it appears to be you using language as a stick to beat people with here.

I am not. "The Ukraine" is somewhat offensive to many Ukrainians. I understand that it's habit to many people and so will point it out. If people continue to insist on using it after being made aware, that says more about them than me.

 

[birchesgreen]

I believe it may be the first one.

It's widely reported that the Ukrainians are putting up a hard fight, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Russians are sustaining more casualties than they thought.

Well maybe though the list of medical staff required include paediatric surgeons along with some specialities you wouldn't usually associate with military casualties.

 

[brad465]

This is curious

Russian health ministry documents show how Russia is preparing for casualties | ITV News

The document indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency and has ordered health organisations to identify medical staff ready to relocate. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

Casualties worse than expected or are they planning something more?

Apparently the Russian army has been bringing its own cremation facilities along to stop dead soldier's bodies travelling back to Russia and making headlines there. This might buy some time, but I'm pretty sure with every death there is a family who'll be wondering where on earth their relatives are.

 

[alex397]

For goodness sake, just call it ‘Ukraine’. It’s not that difficult, and in fact takes up less time!

 

[birchesgreen]

Apparently the Russian army has been bringing its own cremation facilities along to stop dead soldier's bodies travelling back to Russia and making headlines there. This might buy some time, but I'm pretty sure with every death there is a family who'll be wondering where on earth their relatives are.

Yes mobile crematoria, very odd

 

[DustyBin]

There is no point in bothering to “weigh up” anything said by Putin at this point. Everything he has said has been lies.

With something of this magnitude though you need to be sure. As hideous as the situation in Ukraine is we’re talking about potentially ending life on earth (at least as we know it) here. I genuinely don’t like saying it but rushing in is not the right move IMO.

I fear NATO not directly being involved does not make a horrific outcome of some sort less likely, probably actually more. You don’t assume a mad dog won’t bite you if you leave it alone.

No, you make sure you can put it down without getting bitten in the process. Again, I’m not advocating appeasement here but a conflict with Russia isn’t something we should be rushing into (and yes I’m aware that the situation in Ukraine is deteriorating by the hour, and yes it truly sickens me).

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Hur, hurr, durr! Given my screen name I probably shouldn’t post in this thread but, what the heck, let’s do it!

My wife is Ukrainian-born of Russian heritage (in before jokes about mail-order brides, we first met at work over 20 years ago!). Her family roots are in a southern suburb of Donets’k, a place we (pre-pandemic) visited 2 or 3 times a year. I have seen with my own eyes the damage caused by the indiscriminate shelling campaigns conducted by the AFU (Armed Forces of Ukraine) over the last 8 or so years. The loathing of the far-right extremist nationalist elements that had usurped power in the Rada in Kiev/Kyiv (she really doesn’t care how it is spelled, it’s all Cyrillic anyway!) was palpable. Many acquaintances over there were exasperated by the seeming lack of interest from Russia, although at a local level there was, and presumably still is, a great deal of low-level cross-border support, both physical and emotional.

So far, IT connections have remained stable during this intervention and my wife’s family have been in constant touch. They are expressing feelings of relief and joy at the current turn of events, seeing it as a kind of liberation.

My wife can get very agitated at what she sees as the shallow, conventional Western viewpoint about matters in that part of the world, regarding these views as some kind of throwback to 20th century Cold War-based imperialism. I’ve shown her this thread and, at this very moment, she is threatening to set up her own account, purely for this topic! Yikes! If she does so I apologise in advance for any cognitive dissonance folks may suffer...

 

[yorksrob]

Hur, hurr, durr! Given my screen name I probably shouldn’t post in this thread but, what the heck, let’s do it!

My wife is Ukrainian-born of Russian heritage (in before jokes about mail-order brides, we first met at work over 20 years ago!). Her family roots are in a southern suburb of Donets’k, a place we (pre-pandemic) visited 2 or 3 times a year. I have seen with my own eyes the damage caused by the indiscriminate shelling campaigns conducted by the AFU (Armed Forces of Ukraine) over the last 8 or so years. The loathing of the far-right extremist nationalist elements that had usurped power in the Rada in Kiev/Kyiv (she really doesn’t care how it is spelled!) was palpable. Many acquaintances over there were exasperated by the seeming lack of interest from Russia, although at a local level there was, and presumably still is, a great deal of low-level cross-border support, both physical and emotional.

So far, IT connections have remained stable during this intervention and my wife’s family have been in constant touch. They are expressing feelings of relief and joy at the current turn of events, seeing it as a kind of liberation.

My wife can get very agitated at what she sees as the shallow, conventional Western viewpoint about matters in that part of the world, regarding these views as some kind of throwback to 20th century Cold War-based imperialism. I’ve shown her this thread and, at this very moment, she is threatening to set up her own account, purely for this topic! Yikes! If she does so I apologise in advance for any cognitive dissonance folks may suffer...

Ah, so it's cold war based imperialism now.

I know it's fashionable to jump on the imperialism bandwagon these days, but the main empire in that neck of the woods has always been the Russian one.

 

[Strathclyder]

I'm somewhat heartened to see that Russian citizens are up in arms about this, and taking considerable risks to their own safety by taking to the streets in protest. This will only escalate over time as news of mounting Russian casualties comes to light.

One of the very few good things to have come out of this debacle. The bravery it takes to stand up to a authoritarian thug like Putin despite the threats leveled against such actions is a level of bravery I don't possess. Proves once again that the dictatorship and the people are often completely distinct from each other.

 

[Darandio]

And now further reports of a potential ceasefire with Ukraine wanting immediate talks following the 'olive branch' offered by Russia earlier.

What has got me intrigued is how peaceful Kyiv seems to be on the whole, freely available streams are there for all to see. Yes there have been some disturbing images of strikes and reports of the occasional explosion in and around the city. But for a country that is reported to have so much military might and an apparent huge aerial advantage, i'd have expected much more activity from such an invasion or certainly a more active aerial bombardment.

It seems to me it's a case of Putin making threats about NATO and using some limited force to show he is serious when the whole endgame isn't to go full invasion and occupation, it's simply to deter Ukraine and any other potential admissions from doing so. He'll probably also get another couple of Ukraine regions into the bargain.

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Ah, so it's cold war based imperialism now.

I know it's fashionable to jump on the imperialism bandwagon these days, but the main empire in that neck of the woods has always been the Russian one.

I’m merely conveying SWMBO’s opinion, or perhaps that is SWWBT (She Who Was Born There). Personally I find the only real beneficiaries of military action anywhere are the owners/shareholders of “defence” contractors. The more the wars, the bigger the profits...

 

[yorksrob]

I’m merely conveying SWMBO’s opinion, or perhaps that is SWWBT (She Who Was Born There). Personally I find the only real beneficiaries of military action anywhere are the owners/shareholders of “defence” contractors. The more the wars, the bigger the profits...

Well indeed. And who's started the military action.

 

[najaB]

My wife is Ukrainian-born of Russian heritage…

Her family roots are in a southern suburb of Donets’k, a place we (pre-pandemic) visited 2 or 3 times a year.

Those two facts are going to skew her opinions as compared to someone whose roots lie further west.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2022 ==

It seems to me it's a case of Putin making threats about NATO and using some limited force to show he is serious when the whole endgame isn't to go full invasion and occupation...

With respect, you don't roll tanks into suburbs of the capital as a "show of force".

 

[Darandio]

With respect, you don't roll tanks into suburbs of the capital as a "show of force".

Normally no. But this is Putin.....

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I don’t doubt for a moment that there are underlying problems in the long-contested regions - however the purported neo-Nazi elements were hardened into the establishment there by Putin’s own actions in 2014. At the time they were the only military bolster available to counter the Crimean annexation. How should ethnic Russian people in Luhansk & Donetsk really be feeling about Putin, given that he’s used them as geopolitical pawns to justify his expansionism?

 

[Iskra]

I don’t doubt for a moment that there are underlying problems in the long-contested regions - however the purported neo-Nazi elements were hardened into the establishment there by Putin’s own actions in 2014. At the time they were the only military bolster available to counter the Crimean annexation. How should ethnic Russian people in Luhansk & Donetsk really be feeling about Putin, given that he’s used them as geopolitical pawns to justify his expansionism?

I think by 'Neo-Nazi,' what Putin actually means is 'Anti-Russian.'

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Those two facts are going to skew her opinions as compared to someone whose roots lie further west.

And don’t I know it! <emoji of hands covering ears>

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2022 ==

Well indeed. And who's started the military action.

That would depend upon your definition of ‘start’.

 

[yorksrob]

And don’t I know it! <emoji of hands covering ears>

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2022 ==


That would depend upon your definition of ‘start’.

Rolling your countries troops in to your neighbouring country is where I would start as a definition.

 

[Gostav]

Those two facts are going to skew her opinions as compared to someone whose roots lie further west.

That's the problem, people in the East and the West have not really merged since the fall of the Iron Curtain, some have become more divided. At this time, in Czechia the most "pro-Western" former socialist country, problems similar to Ukraine are actually occurring, but the contradictions have not intensified to such a bad level but some worry that it's just economic growth that masks division issues. Look at the rift that the EU is now facing with immigration, LGBT, abortion.
Will Europe be under fire again? who knows?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think by 'Neo-Nazi,' what Putin actually means is 'Anti-Russian.'

But it isn’t just him who has said it. The Reuters article from 2018 that I shared upthread made it clear there have been concerning militias operating in that part of Eastern Europe for some time.