Potential DfT/ORR Consultation On Diversionary Routes/Rail Replacement Bus Services?

[Falcon1200]

Is any passenger pleased by an RRB?

Yes; If as I have experienced, the WCML is blocked north of Lancaster by flooding, with no likely re-opening in sight, and no prospect whatsoever of running any reasonable train service via a diversionary route, for the valid reasons explained above of train and traincrew provision, then a coach down the M6 from Preston to Carlisle is infinitely preferable to festering at Preston for an indeterminate length of time.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Is any passenger pleased by an RRB?

Going back to very early in my railway career I used a line that was going through a series of Sunday closures for re-laying, with an RRB provided in lieu of the trains. This was a local branch route so 'diversions' weren't a possibility or issue.

On Sundays I was 'pleased' to be going in the right direction around the time that I wanted. I full recognised that engineering work had to be done and the RRB was greatly preferable to having to pick my way around on multiple local stage carriage routes that didn't parallel the rail route.

 

[A0]

Hmm. Is an InterCity service from Kings Cross to Leeds that just happens to have been diverted via Cambridge an obscurity !

I think not.

Well, LNER run about 35 trains a day between London and Leeds 6 days a week, with about half that on Sundays, over 300 days a year - that's over 10,000 trains a year. The ECML is probably "closed" necessitating diversion on 1 or 2 weekends a year. Just seems more than a simple conincidence that you *had* to be travelling on the weekend when such diversions were in place - I mean, what are the odds? It's a bit like every train you get on which covers an obscure branch line is always full and standing. With luck like yours I hope you play the lottery - because you must win every week with odds like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2022 ==

Niches. The point is they bought a train ticket. And I don't know about you, but when I buy a train ticket (given our non-integrated transport system), my expectation, intention and will is to travel by train.

Riight - so such journeys are "niches". Hark, is that the sound of shifting goalposts?

I assume you've tried going by coach from Bletchley to London? And don't cheat by counting MK Coachway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Buses have to run over poor road surfaces in many parts of the country. That doesn't provide a great ride but it's not the bus manufacturers fault.

For the record I was not blaming anyone, simply stating the fact that the quality of the ride of a bus is almost universally worse than a train, 14x excepted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2022 ==

I assume you've tried going by coach from Bletchley to London? And don't cheat by counting MK Coachway.

I've done it from Coachway, which is not cheating, and I also once or twice used the NatEx commuter service from MKC when that ran just out of curiosity (it was too slow to be viable).

To do it from Bletchley you could take local buses to the Coachway first (or the F70 to Luton to connect there), so it is possible to do it by bus all the way if you've got more time than sense.

But there is the option to choose to travel to London from MK by bus/coach if you wish.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, LNER run about 35 trains a day between London and Leeds 6 days a week, with about half that on Sundays, over 300 days a year - that's over 10,000 trains a year. The ECML is probably "closed" necessitating diversion on 1 or 2 weekends a year. Just seems more than a simple conincidence that you *had* to be travelling on the weekend when such diversions were in place - I mean, what are the odds? It's a bit like ever train you get on which covers an obscure branch line is always full and standing. With luck like yours I hope you play the lottery - because you must win every week with odds like that.

Ooh, such a conspiracy theory !

I live in Yorkshire, my family lives in Kent and there aren't any comfortable MML InterCity 125's to get from St P to Yorkshire anymore is the reason I was on that train.

Actually, as it happens, I was down South for a thumper tour, but the diversion was incidental !

 

[Carlisle]

I guess those who feel sickness on trains but not on motor transport would most likely choose motor transport i

They’d choose the first available

 

[43074]

The ECML is probably "closed" necessitating diversion on 1 or 2 weekends a year.

More like 18 weekends a year, given diversions via one of Lincoln, Cambridge or Hertford North take place on most Sundays between November and March.

 

[philthetube]

Speaking personally, if travelling from Blackpool to London I would always catch the service via Birmingham to avoid changing, despite the extra time taken, I know that 1 does not make a representative sample but even so!

 

[43066]

I've heard of tilting trains making people sick, as well as trains travelling over high viaducts.

Buses have to run over poor road surfaces in many parts of the country. That doesn't provide a great ride but it's not the bus manufacturers fault.

Toilets are standard on National Express and Megabus.

With regards to trains vs local buses, in an emergency you can usually alight a bus quicker than a train. While local trains that stop very frequently often don't have toilets e.g. Merseyrail.

Let’s be honest nobody who has the choice (other than an enthusiast) will spend six hours in a coach when they can spend half or less the time on a train to do the same journey.

That’s so obvious that it shouldn’t need pointing out.

 

[yorksrob]

More like 18 weekends a year, given diversions via one of Lincoln, Cambridge or Hertford North take place on most Sundays between November and March.

Indeed. This seems a far more realistic assessment.

 

[TheBigD]

Well, LNER run about 35 trains a day between London and Leeds 6 days a week, with about half that on Sundays, over 300 days a year - that's over 10,000 trains a year. The ECML is probably "closed" necessitating diversion on 1 or 2 weekends a year.

More like 18 weekends a year, given diversions via one of Lincoln, Cambridge or Hertford North take place on most Sundays between November and March.

Well this year the ECML has/will see the following...

3 weekends of Cambridge diversions
5 weekends of Durham Coast Diversions
5 weekends of via Leeds diversions
4-6 weekends of Carlisle diversions*
4-6 weekends of Joint Line diversions*
3 weekends of Hertford North diversions.
Likely Hambleton diversions but I've not checked.

This list isn't a full list nor is unusual. Most years look similar.

Thankfully LNER do a reasonable job or diverting services.

Lumo haven't operated south of Newcastle at weekends since 2nd January, and won't until 2nd April.

* I've not checked the autumn work for quite sometime so it may have changed.

***** If any of you fancy a trip under the Werrington dive under the first 2 weekends of November will see LNER/GC/HT, & EMR passenger trains under it as Werrington Junction pointwork is renewed*****

 

[yorksrob]

Well this year the ECML has/will see the following...

3 weekends of Cambridge diversions
5 weekends of Durham Coast Diversions
5 weekends of via Leeds diversions
4-6 weekends of Carlisle diversions*
4-6 weekends of Joint Line diversions*
3 weekends of Hertford North diversions.
Likely Hambleton diversions but I've not checked.

This list isn't a full list nor is unusual. Most years look similar.

Thankfully LNER do a reasonable job or diverting services.

Lumo haven't operated south of Newcastle at weekends since 2nd January, and won't until 2nd April.

* I've not checked the autumn work for quite sometime so it may have changed.

***** If any of you fancy a trip under the Werrington dive under the first 2 weekends of November will see LNER/GC/HT, & EMR passenger trains under it as Werrington Junction pointwork is renewed*****

Indeed - fair play to them for putting the effort into diverting.

Quote rightly, for a major InterCity route, relying on bustitutions every other week wouldn't cut it.

 

[wobman]

Buses are great for short journeys only for me, if there's A RRB I will avoid it like the plague. I will just drive rather than use a RRB, they take much longer than the train I find and it's nowhere near as comfortable as a train.

There is things like cycles are allowed on the RRB, it's a nightmare with luggage and prams. Most I've been on don't have toilets either and you can't get up to stretch your legs.

It's far more practical for the passengers to use diversionary routes for rail services, but from experience tocs are getting rid of diversionary routes more and more. TfWs Chester traincrew have lost the Bescot diversionary route off there cards now and from May they are losing crewe - Stafford- Wolves !!!!!!
That's nor beneficial for the passengers in times of disruption, it will just be RRB for the Salop to Birmingham route .....

 

[Kite159]

Well this year the ECML has/will see the following...

3 weekends of Cambridge diversions
5 weekends of Durham Coast Diversions
5 weekends of via Leeds diversions
4-6 weekends of Carlisle diversions*
4-6 weekends of Joint Line diversions*
3 weekends of Hertford North diversions.
Likely Hambleton diversions but I've not checked.

This list isn't a full list nor is unusual. Most years look similar.

Thankfully LNER do a reasonable job or diverting services.

Lumo haven't operated south of Newcastle at weekends since 2nd January, and won't until 2nd April.

* I've not checked the autumn work for quite sometime so it may have changed.

***** If any of you fancy a trip under the Werrington dive under the first 2 weekends of November will see LNER/GC/HT, & EMR passenger trains under it as Werrington Junction pointwork is renewed*****

At least 1 weekend of Hambleton diversions (2/3rd April)

LNER are one of the better TOCS for diverting services where they can, likewise for XC and TPE in parts [Manchester - Sheffield diverted via Huddersfield & Wakefield]

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Another alternative that should be considered is to move away from possessions being on too many occasions miles longer than is necessary generally blocked for operational convenience rather than maximising what can be made available. I acknowledge that single line working is frowned upon let alone working to a point of an obstruction but ought to be explored. Also i know stations need to be suitable for RRB

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Another alternative that should be considered is to move away from possessions being on too many occasions miles longer than is necessary generally blocked for operational convenience rather than maximising what can be made available. I acknowledge that single line working is frowned upon let alone working to a point of an obstruction but ought to be explored. Also i know stations need to be suitable for RRB

The exception is on Southern where its relatively common.

 

[northwichcat]

Let’s be honest nobody who has the choice (other than an enthusiast) will spend six hours in a coach when they can spend half or less the time on a train to do the same journey.

That’s so obvious that it shouldn’t need pointing out.

Manchester to Bristol takes the same amount of time by coach as it does by rail. The train isn't always much faster. Intercity to London probably always is faster by train though.

 

[tbtc]

This is something I notice frequently in Cheshire. A modern bus with comfy seats, WiFi and USB charging points doesn't interest certain people. Yet some of those people seem happy to buy a train ticket to London from a local station, even when it involves a connection on a Northern train.

Good points

Buses used on short distance journeys have significantly improved in recent years - yet rail enthusiasts continued to talk about the kind of bench seating that some trains still had as "bus seats", even though separate seats were the norm from the 1990s onwards - I can't think of the last bus I was on that had "bus seats" (other than at Depot open days etc)

But in the classic 'Settle & Carlisle' case the tiny (future) stud of Avanti bi-modes would have to be concentrated on shuttling between Preston and Carlisle with everyone to/from Glasgow and Edinburgh at one end and Euston, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool at the other changing at either Carlisle or Preston, possibly with lengthy waits at each and quite probably having to stand on the shuttle service. Not a 'through train' in sight.

Suddenly a coach via the M6 that can be sent on its (faster) way as soon as it has gathered a full load seems a lot quicker and even, possibly, more comfortable, with a seat.

Let alone significant further collateral damage with otherwise unaffected journeys involving Chester and North Wales suddenly involving potentially double changes into smaller trains as well.

Agreed - I don't have time at the moment but I'll sketch out the number of suitable trains you'd need to provide the same Preston - Carlisle capacity in the event of S&C diversions at some stage (and then see how easy it'd be to pinch suitable stock from elsewhere) - I have a feeling it won't be pretty!

It doesn't detract from the reality that most rail passengers would either prefer to stay on a diverted train, or change to another train rather than get an RRB.

Yet another thread where Rob comes to the conclusion that the vast majority of the Great British Public completely agree with him on a subject, eh

I was recently on an ECML train from London to Leeds that was diverted via Cambridge and as a result took an hour longer than usual. Funnily enough, I don't recall hearing any of my fellow passengers decrying the diversion in favour of a coach journey.

Indeed - fair play to them for putting the effort into diverting.

Quote rightly, for a major InterCity route, relying on bustitutions every other week wouldn't cut it.

Running Kings Cross - Cambridge - Peterborough (and beyond) services on the ECML is a lot less hassle than when some other routes close - especially with all of the bi-mode trains that LNER have

Nobody is saying that there should be *no* diversions, just that there are some where the cost of doing so can be accommodated okay and some where it comes at a very high opportunity cost (e.g. all of the services you'd have to delay/disrupt each week in order to maintain route knowledge, the other services that you'd have to pinch stock from to find enough suitable stock to run the diverted route)

If there was a problem south of Sheffield station, I'd expect services to be diverted via the "Old Road" to get to Chesterfield (and beyond) without too much penalty - but if there was a problem in the Hope Valley then I'd understand that the "cost" of maintaining through trains to Manchester was quite high (the single track line via Penistone to Huddersfield has existing trains on it, there may not be spare paths from Huddersfield to Manchester without cutting other services, the time penalty would mean quite a few more DMUs needed)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Manchester to Bristol takes the same amount of time by coach as it does by rail. The train isn't always much faster. Intercity to London probably always is faster by train though.

National Express Coaches are 5hrs 12-13 quid single. Rail can do it in just over 3h although cost you at least 30quid so just as well its quicker otherwise rail would have no purpose.

 

[InOban]

I know of someone who regularly uses the coach between Oban and Glasgow because it is more comfortable and, in winter, warmer than a 156.

BTW, are the rules for route learning /refreshing set by the safety authorities or by the unions? I remember that some years ago there was a line in Lincolnshire closed for over 6 months by a landslip. Even though the reinstated tracks and signalling were identical, every driver had to relearn the route.

 

[TheBigD]

Agreed - I don't have time at the moment but I'll sketch out the number of suitable trains you'd need to provide the same Preston - Carlisle capacity in the event of S&C diversions at some stage (and then see how easy it'd be to pinch suitable stock from elsewhere) - I have a feeling it won't be pretty!

You're right, it isn't pretty!

2 x 9 or 11 car 390s plus a 5 car 397 every hour, with a extra 5 car 397 3 times a day when the full service operates.
9+9+5 car, so a minimum of 23 carriages per hour. Journey time just over an hour Preston to Carlisle.

Diversion via S&C has a best journey time of 2hr45m, assuming a clean path, would mean you would need a minimum of 6/7 voyagers for an hourly service of 5 carriages. Times that by 4 or 5 for the same capacity.

Avanti have 20 x 5 car voyagers, soon to be 13 x 5 car 805s.

From an old Google search, 18 are diagrammed.
8 units needed for Chester/North Wales.
2 units for Shrewsbury.
Rest used on other services.

Cue people wanting 57+390 drags, despite the fact there's now only a few 57s left with the capability to couple to the 390s.

 

[northwichcat]

National Express Coaches are 5hrs 12-13 quid single. Rail can do it in just over 3h although cost you at least 30quid so just as well its quicker otherwise rail would have no purpose.

Megabus were much faster than that last summer with almost hourly direct services making 3 calls on the way. XC run just 3 direct services a day and they take 3 HR 10. At other times you need to add in a connection time.

 

[plugwash]

Yes, but I think it has to be recognised that it is better to plan around missing the area altogether than going through the disrupted location.[

One problem is there are some places where "missing the area altogether" means a massive detour and/or piling on to regional trains that were simply not meant to take intercity loadings.

If the WCML through Lancaster is closed for example and you are travelling north from the Liverpool/Manchester/Preston area, what are your options if you want to avoid using road transport?

In theory there is a railway line From clitheroe to hellified and on towards either Lancaster (via Carnforth) or Carlisle. In practice said line sees virtually no trains, so unless the rail operators divert something that way it's practically useless to passengers.

So practically you have to head over to at least Leeds. There are trains from Leeds to Lancaster/Carslile, but they are infrequent and not exactly large. There is a line from Newcastle to Carlisle, but that's even further out of your way and again I don't think the trains on it are very high capacity.

 

[The Planner]

Another alternative that should be considered is to move away from possessions being on too many occasions miles longer than is necessary generally blocked for operational convenience rather than maximising what can be made available. I acknowledge that single line working is frowned upon let alone working to a point of an obstruction but ought to be explored. Also i know stations need to be suitable for RRB

Operational convenience is the ability to run more trains more often that not. Single line working may get you some throughput but if its at a much reduced level then you run the risk of massively overcrowded trains. You have already noted the important issue of if a station is suitable for RRB.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Single line working may get you some throughput but if its at a much reduced level then you run the risk of massively overcrowded trains. You have already noted the important issue of if a station is suitable for RRB.

You've still got handle passengers with RRB. Just go down to Three Bridges this week to see the huge operation that has taken over the whole of the 500 space car park plus all the resources to manage the movement of the buses down a road that passengers are using needing loads of stewards. Also there is additional risk of injury of people getting on/off trains/coaches as well as the increased risk of travelling by road transport.
I totally acknowledge it can't be avoided but its good ORR are looking into it and I feel they should also look at whether there is too much use of RRB compared to historical norms.

 

[6Gman]

Avanti do not have enough Bi-modes on order to consider sending them via the Settle & Carlisle line without passengers having to change trains at Preston and Carlisle. TPE isn't going that way either.

When the WCML is shut the ECML is open and as many passengers as possible should be directed to the other route for through journeys. Using the Settle & Carlisle line is total nonsense.

Other diversionary routes are not such a detour such as those used for ECML closures and well worth using to maintain through journeys.

If you're travelling from the North West of England to Scotland using the S&C certainly isn't "total nonsense".

 

[Taunton]

Just go down to Three Bridges this week to see the huge operation that has taken over the whole of the 500 space car park

This is another issue where NR feel they can just help themselves to the car park that delivers so many, often high-paying, passengers to the railway. If you can't drive to the station you won't be using the train on the bit still running.

Can you imagine a supermarket telling a building contractor doing works behind their shop that it's OK to take all of their car park for works purposes?

 

[plugwash]

If there was a problem south of Sheffield station, I'd expect services to be diverted via the "Old Road" to get to Chesterfield (and beyond) without too much penalty - but if there was a problem in the Hope Valley then I'd understand that the "cost" of maintaining through trains to Manchester was quite high (the single track line via Penistone to Huddersfield has existing trains on it, there may not be spare paths from Huddersfield to Manchester without cutting other services, the time penalty would mean quite a few more DMUs needed)

I certainly remember a few years back when the hope valley was closed due to a problem with a dam they ran a special service from Manchester to sheffield as an extension of an existing Manchester to Huddersfield service, I don't know what route it took from Sheffield to Huddersfield though.

The current later-night services from Manchester to Sheffield and back via huddersfield seems to run via wakefield rather than pennistone.

 

[6Gman]

There are large groups of passengers who would rather have a longer journey staying put on a train than doing train bus train. The elderly, those with lots of luggage, those with young children / babies. Its a bigger market than you'd expect. I think some enthusiasts sometimes forget it isn't all about speed all of the time.
Greater use of diversionaries is a must for me.

I would also mention two other groups:

Those who experience travel sickness on buses/coaches.
Those who have paid the higher fare generally charged for rail travel rather than coach travel because (for whatever reason) they prefer to travel by train.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This is another issue where NR feel they can just help themselves to the car park that delivers so many, often high-paying, passengers to the railway. If you can't drive to the station you won't be using the train on the bit still running.

Can you imagine a supermarket telling a building contractor doing works behind their shop that it's OK to take all of their car park for works purposes?

When i wanted station car parks for renewals jobs we had to pay the car park operator the going rate for the spaces we took so it will have cost NR a pretty penny for Three Bridges. Of course the train operator doesn't care anymore as they've offloaded problem onto a car park operator and fail to realise as you rightly say that for many passengers parking at a station encourages the use of rail in the first place.

At my local station they introduced car parking charges a couple of years back that are so high nobody uses it despite they spent a fortune on installing a ANPR system to read number plates.