Potential DfT/ORR Consultation On Diversionary Routes/Rail Replacement Bus Services?

[aleggatta]

I think its more about providing Littlehampton and the West Coastway stations with a direct service instead. This diversion always happens when this possession occurs, so it isn't a unique thing just for the blockade.

it is also quite a comparable journey time for the west coastway. I was quite surprised when on diversion the train from worthing took basically the same time to get to london via the Arun Valley than it did via BML!

 

[tbtc]

1. You've got to feel sorry for some of the people who've blamed every "problem" over the past twenty five years on privatisation - they are going to have to accept that even under our Government controlled GBR many of these things are going to continue happening. Maybe there'll now be an acceptance that it's not easy to find the paths required on our busy railway and the additional route trained staff and suitable trains to run via diversionary routes, now that the Government are running the show, and people can't blame "bus companies"? But it is difficult - how many slower trains do you run each week to maintain route knowledge, just in case there's a diversion required in the next few months? Which other routes do you pinch stock from? Is it worth providing diverted services if it means passengers having to change trains twice (e.g. a 390 to Preston, a DMU from Preston to Carlisle, a 390 from Carlisle to Scotland)? Is it worth maintaining "some" diversions even if the majority of passengers have to use replacement buses instead (e.g. Preston to Carlisle can have 2x390 per hour plus 1x395, but we might only have the resources for a single Voyager each hour, so most passengers would have to use buses anyway)?

2. I have a sneaking suspicion that "we should be reducing replacement bus services to a minimum" is a handy diversion (if you'll excuse the pun...), like the "we should be reducing announcements to a minimum" debate that we were having a month ago - it's warm words from the Government to give the impression that they are listening but no substance and we'll keep on having the same debate in a few months time (but it'll probably be Beeching Reversals next month). Nobody wants replacement bus services, if you could provide a through train that is no slower than switching to a bus, just like nobody is demanding "too many" announcements, but it feels like we've been here before and will be here again a few times each year... might as well get used to it - the Government seem quite savvy at these Distraction Pieces...

I don’t however get the obsession with using the Settle & Carlisle as a diversionary route

Yeah... some people seem more concerned about "how can I tick off rare bits of track or travel the length of the Settle & Carlisle on a proper InterCity train at regular ticket prices, with Privs etc"

In disruption/engineering works, I'm sure most passengers would rather change to another train than a bus.

...so the argument has moved from "people don't like the disruption of changing, especially the vulnerable/ elderly/ those with luggage/ parents with kids etc" to "people are okay to change, as long as it's between trains"?

I mean, I think it's true, I think that - all things being equal - people would generally prefer though trains, people would prefer to change onto a second train than onto a bus, people want fast journeys - but it feels like the goalposts are being shifted a little here...

 

[yorksrob]

...so the argument has moved from "people don't like the disruption of changing, especially the vulnerable/ elderly/ those with luggage/ parents with kids etc" to "people are okay to change, as long as it's between trains"?

I mean, I think it's true, I think that - all things being equal - people would generally prefer though trains, people would prefer to change onto a second train than onto a bus, people want fast journeys - but it feels like the goalposts are being shifted a little here...

The two arguments aren't mutually exclusive you know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So am I, but trying to manage red pen expectations....

807s are EMUs...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

Lumo haven't run south of Newcastle at weekends since 2nd January this year and won't be until 2nd April...

Open Access is different, they can provide or not provide what they like.

 

[The Planner]

807s are EMUs...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==



Open Access is different, they can provide or not provide what they like.

You know what I meant. You still aren't going to see Avanti on the S&C.

 

[Dr Hoo]

How long is it since the last ORR consultation on this subject? Seems to be familiar territory.

I thought that the previous consultation was by Transport Focus.

I know that a lot of people are suspicious of the Schedule 4 'possessions compensation regime' but it has at least provided some benchmarks for the 'value' (and some costs) of the disruption caused. (I know that the changes in journey type and pattern since covid will have spoilt the precise assumptions and calibration.) If all of this is somehow going to be 'turned off' or internalised with the transition to GBR there are going to be very real questions about minimisation of disruption will be incentivised in future; beyond mere exhortations and rhetoric.

 

[mpthomson]

I know the 3 hours referred to the journey via the S&C. It was the 2 hours you claim for the bus I was disputing. The actual bus journey might be 2 hours, but certainly wouldn't be in the summer, but the overall journey when adding on the changes and waits at Preston and Carlisle means the difference in time will be far less than 1 hour.

The journey time on a coach doesn't change substantially during the summer, it's straight up the M6 with a stop at Penrith if needed, and that's only just (ie less than half a mile) off the M6. Even going to Oxenholme the route isn't affected by Lake District traffic. 2hrs is easily doable.

 

[northwichcat]

I mean, I think it's true, I think that - all things being equal - people would generally prefer though trains, people would prefer to change onto a second train than onto a bus, people want fast journeys - but it feels like the goalposts are being shifted a little here...

This is something I notice frequently in Cheshire. A modern bus with comfy seats, WiFi and USB charging points doesn't interest certain people. Yet some of those people seem happy to buy a train ticket to London from a local station, even when it involves a connection on a Northern train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is something I notice frequently in Cheshire. A modern bus with comfy seats, WiFi and USB charging points doesn't interest certain people. Yet some of those people seem happy to buy a train ticket to London from a local station, even when it involves a connection on a Northern train.

Because, ignoring extremities like 142s, a journey on the best bus is slower and less comfortable (in terms of movement, which makes many people feel ill) than a journey on the worst train, and usually considerably slower too.

Also most UK buses are at the "bad" end of things. If everything was like Alex Hornby-land people might see buses differently. There is a lot of prejudice too, but it is completely true that most UK buses are of relatively poor quality and do not serve as any encouragement at all not to drive.

 

[A0]

For all the claims that "BR would have diverted" - it's interesting to look at the reality there.

When the Penmanshiel Tunnel collapsed in 1979, the *vast majority* of ECML services to Edinburgh were bus replacement between Berwick and Dunbar.

The sleepers were diverted via Hexham and Carlisle.

But looking at the down timetable (on the Napier Chronicles website) the situation was:

07:05 from Newcastle - run to Berwick then bus
08:10 from Newcastle - run to Berwick then bus
09:04 from Newcastle (SO) ex Leeds - run to Berwick then bus
09:12 from Newcastle - run via Carlisle
09:45 from Newcastle ex Leeds - run to Berwick then bus
10:30 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run via Carlisle
10:40 from Newcastle (SX) ex York - run to Berwick then bus
11:26 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run via Carlisle
12:14 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
13:20 from Newcastle - run to Berwick then bus
14:07 from Newcastle (SO) ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
14:14 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
15:04 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
16:19 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
17:04 / 17:12 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
17:34 from Newcastle - run to Berwick then bus
17:40 from Newcastle (SO) ex Scarborough - via Carlisle
18:22 from Newcastle ex Kings X - via Carlisle
19:26 from Newcastle ex Kings X - via Carlisle
20:13 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus

And that was on a railway where the major trunk routes (ECML, WCML) were much quieter than they are today.

 

[cambsy]

I think diversions, should be used, when at all possible, as other people have said, a lot of passengers prefer a through journey by train, rather than the faff of having to change to a RRB, and i rather stay on a train, via a diversion, than change to an RRB, if on a train day out, then i stick to trains, not interested in RRB’s. I haven’t used an RRB in a very long time.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think diversions, should be used, when at all possible, as other people have said, a lot of passengers prefer a through journey by train, rather than the faff of having to change to a RRB, and i rather stay on a train, via a diversion, than change to an RRB, if on a train day out, then i stick to trains, not interested in RRB’s. I haven’t used an RRB in a very long time.

But in the classic 'Settle & Carlisle' case the tiny (future) stud of Avanti bi-modes would have to be concentrated on shuttling between Preston and Carlisle with everyone to/from Glasgow and Edinburgh at one end and Euston, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool at the other changing at either Carlisle or Preston, possibly with lengthy waits at each and quite probably having to stand on the shuttle service. Not a 'through train' in sight.

Suddenly a coach via the M6 that can be sent on its (faster) way as soon as it has gathered a full load seems a lot quicker and even, possibly, more comfortable, with a seat.

Let alone significant further collateral damage with otherwise unaffected journeys involving Chester and North Wales suddenly involving potentially double changes into smaller trains as well.

 

[robert thomas]

I think diversions, should be used, when at all possible, as other people have said, a lot of passengers prefer a through journey by train, rather than the faff of having to change to a RRB, and i rather stay on a train, via a diversion, than change to an RRB, if on a train day out, then i stick to trains, not interested in RRB’s. I haven’t used an RRB in a very long time.

As I get travel sick on long distance bus/coach journeys I avoid any possibility of bus replacement like the plague, even if it means I don't travel as a result.

 

[RT4038]

I think diversions, should be used, when at all possible, as other people have said, a lot of passengers prefer a through journey by train, rather than the faff of having to change to a RRB, and i rather stay on a train, via a diversion, than change to an RRB, if on a train day out, then i stick to trains, not interested in RRB’s. I haven’t used an RRB in a very long time.

People on a 'train day out' is a very niche market, and unlikely to be taken into consideration on RRB policy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2022 ==

As I get travel sick on long distance bus/coach journeys I avoid any possibility of bus replacement like the plague, even if it means I don't travel as a result.

In my experience, people avoid an additional two hours spent going round a long rail diversion like the plague too, and travel another day or another way.

 

[A0]

As I get travel sick on long distance bus/coach journeys I avoid any possibility of bus replacement like the plague, even if it means I don't travel as a result.

But what do you mean by "long distance" ? An hour ? Two hours ? 100 miles ? On its own, it's a pretty meaningless measure.

 

[The exile]

For all the claims that "BR would have diverted" - it's interesting to look at the reality there.

When the Penmanshiel Tunnel collapsed in 1979, the *vast majority* of ECML services to Edinburgh were bus replacement between Berwick and Dunbar.

The sleepers were diverted via Hexham and Carlisle.

But looking at the down timetable (on the Napier Chronicles website) the situation was:

07:05 from Newcastle - run to Berwick then bus
08:10 from Newcastle - run to Berwick then bus
09:04 from Newcastle (SO) ex Leeds - run to Berwick then bus
09:12 from Newcastle - run via Carlisle
09:45 from Newcastle ex Leeds - run to Berwick then bus
10:30 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run via Carlisle
10:40 from Newcastle (SX) ex York - run to Berwick then bus
11:26 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run via Carlisle
12:14 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
13:20 from Newcastle - run to Berwick then bus
14:07 from Newcastle (SO) ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
14:14 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
15:04 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
16:19 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
17:04 / 17:12 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus
17:34 from Newcastle - run to Berwick then bus
17:40 from Newcastle (SO) ex Scarborough - via Carlisle
18:22 from Newcastle ex Kings X - via Carlisle
19:26 from Newcastle ex Kings X - via Carlisle
20:13 from Newcastle ex Kings X - run to Berwick then bus

And that was on a railway where the major trunk routes (ECML, WCML) were much quieter than they are today.

There were also a few through services from Edinburgh to Euston ( which I suppose counts as a 100% diversion)

 

[A0]

There were also a few through services from Edinburgh to Euston ( which I suppose counts as a 100% diversion)

Yes, though the fact there were spare paths on the WCML back then shows how much quieter it was than today - I'm not sure such paths could be found today.

 

[TheBigD]

Yes, though the fact there were spare paths on the WCML back then shows how much quieter it was than today - I'm not sure such paths could be found today.

And they'll be even less if paths if/when the Liverpool-Euston service gets doubled to half hourly.

 

[Carlisle]

As I get travel sick on long distance bus/coach journeys I avoid any possibility of bus replacement like the plague, even if it means I don't travel as a result.

If your sick on busses in all likelihood you probably will be at times on trains too .

 

[Bletchleyite]

If your sick on busses in all likelihood you probably will be on trains too .

Totally untrue.

Also if you are, trains mostly have toilets.

 

[yorksrob]

If your sick on busses in all likelihood you probably will be at times on trains too .

Is that necessarily true ? When I was a child I often felt motion sickness on motor transport but never on trains.

 

[Carlisle]

Is that necessarily true ? When I was a child I often felt motion sickness on motor transport but never on trains.

Maybe that’s your experience but a sizeable number suffer sickness on trains,too, I witness it regularly as part of my work, not great but reality.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe that’s your experience but a sizeable number suffer sickness on trains,too, I witness it regularly as part of my work

I guess those who feel sickness on trains but not on motor transport would most likely choose motor transport in the first instance.

It doesn't detract from the reality that most rail passengers would either prefer to stay on a diverted train, or change to another train rather than get an RRB.

I was recently on an ECML train from London to Leeds that was diverted via Cambridge and as a result took an hour longer than usual. Funnily enough, I don't recall hearing any of my fellow passengers decrying the diversion in favour of a coach journey.

 

[A0]

I was recently on an ECML train from London to Leeds that was diverted via Cambridge and as a result took an hour longer than usual. Funnily enough, I don't recall hearing any of my fellow passengers decrying the diversion in favour of a coach journey.

Quelle surprise ! Another of the Yorksrob obscurities so it must be true-isms.....

Naturally you spoke to a representative sample to understand whether or not they'd have been bothered by an RRB ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quelle surprise ! Another of the Yorksrob obscurities so it must be true-isms.....

Naturally you spoke to a representative sample to understand whether or not they'd have been bothered by an RRB ?

Is any passenger pleased by an RRB?

If they wanted to travel by bus or coach, that option was likely open to them for a far lower cost. They didn't choose it.

 

[yorksrob]

Quelle surprise ! Another of the Yorksrob obscurities so it must be true-isms.....

Naturally you spoke to a representative sample to understand whether or not they'd have been bothered by an RRB ?

Hmm. Is an InterCity service from Kings Cross to Leeds that just happens to have been diverted via Cambridge an obscurity !

I think not.

They seemed reasonably content to stay on the train to me, but I obviously bow to the more accurate marketing data indicating that they would have preferred to have changed to a bus for half of the journey that you must obviously hold

 

[A0]

Is any passenger pleased by an RRB?

If they wanted to travel by bus or coach, that option was likely open to them for a far lower cost.

I suspect many of them accept that engineering has to be done. And many journeys *couldn't* be done by coach - try Kettering or Wellingborough to London for starters. In fact many of the places on the "Home Counties" surburban lines you couldn't either.

 

[43066]

Is any passenger pleased by an RRB?

Actual bus passengers, intending to travel on a parallel bus route, who can jump on the RRB for free probably are.

Other than that, struggling!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect many of them accept that engineering has to be done. And many journeys *couldn't* be done by coach - try Kettering or Wellingborough to London for starters. In fact many of the places on the "Home Counties" surburban lines you couldn't either.

Niches. The point is they bought a train ticket. And I don't know about you, but when I buy a train ticket (given our non-integrated transport system), my expectation, intention and will is to travel by train.

 

[northwichcat]

Totally untrue.

Also if you are, trains mostly have toilets.

I've heard of tilting trains making people sick, as well as trains travelling over high viaducts.

Buses have to run over poor road surfaces in many parts of the country. That doesn't provide a great ride but it's not the bus manufacturers fault.

Toilets are standard on National Express and Megabus.

With regards to trains vs local buses, in an emergency you can usually alight a bus quicker than a train. While local trains that stop very frequently often don't have toilets e.g. Merseyrail.