Join the campaign for cheaper rail fares

[bettertranspor]

Fed up with astronomical rail fares and overcrowded trains? Then fight back by joining the Fair Fares Now campaign to demand cheaper, simpler and fairer rail ticketing.

From today commuters in some parts of the country are being asked to pay £5,192, or 20% of the average UK salary, for their annual season ticket. It’s outrageous – and if it is to change, you need to show how you feel about it.

The worst of the fare increases won’t come into effect until January 2012, so we have a one year to influence the Government. Millions of us want cheaper train fares – and together we can make it happen.

There are lots of ways you can get involved in the campaign. Find out more at fairfaresnow.org

 

[gordonthemoron]

In germany, the most a season ticket costs for DB is €6,400 first class or €3,800 second class. That is the price of a Bahncard100 which gives free travel throughout germany for a year.

 

[Old Timer]

Fed up with astronomical rail fares and overcrowded trains? Then fight back by joining the Fair Fares Now campaign to demand cheaper, simpler and fairer rail ticketing.

From today commuters in some parts of the country are being asked to pay £5,192, or 20% of the average UK salary, for their annual season ticket. It’s outrageous – and if it is to change, you need to show how you feel about it.

The worst of the fare increases won’t come into effect until January 2012, so we have a one year to influence the Government. Millions of us want cheaper train fares – and together we can make it happen.

There are lots of ways you can get involved in the campaign. Find out more at fairfaresnow.org

Before you start shouting about unfairness, please answer the following questions.

1) You state "commuters in some parts of the Country" - where is this please ?

2) What is the journey ? A quick check has revealed an annual standard class season ticket from Birmingham to London works out at £5080 based on the cheapest option.

3) You state that the worst of the increases wont come into force until 2012. Does that reflect the figure you quoted and if so why when it is not a valid comparison ?

4) you refer to average wage but how many people on the "average wage" are going to be spending some 20% of their earnings on rail travel ? I suggest that the greater number of these commuters are earning considerably more. I also suggest they are travelling from choice of location.

5) The cost of travel equates to £118 per week based on a 44 working week year.

6) The cost of owning and running a petrol car of moderate size is 61.60p per mile based on 10,000 miles a year according to the AA. This would not be an unreasonable figure for a car doing a short distance commute and sitting in a work car park 5 days a week 48 weeks a year. Assuming that the average distance travelled to work is 20 miles per day, this equates to £12.34 per day, in other words £61.60 per week.

So £61.60 to travel a round journey of 20 miles per day as against £118.00 to travel how many more miles ?



And your problem was ????

 

[devon_metro]

Commuting is a lifestyle choice. If you are unhappy with 20% of your salary going on a season ticket then can I suggest moving within walking distance of your workplace thus incurring no transport costs. However, I rather suspect you'd be far more out of pocket what with increased mortgage payments...!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Fed up with astronomical rail fares and overcrowded trains? Then fight back by joining the Fair Fares Now campaign to demand cheaper, simpler and fairer rail ticketing.

From today commuters in some parts of the country are being asked to pay £5,192, or 20% of the average UK salary, for their annual season ticket. It’s outrageous – and if it is to change, you need to show how you feel about it.

The worst of the fare increases won’t come into effect until January 2012, so we have a one year to influence the Government. Millions of us want cheaper train fares – and together we can make it happen.

There are lots of ways you can get involved in the campaign. Find out more at fairfaresnow.org

You are perhaps barking up the wrong tree here, most people on here are either rail staff who travel free/at great discount, or leisure travellers who know very well how to get cheap fares by splitting tickets etc.

As for the public at large, they'll either pay the higher fares or find alternative means of transport. That's what we do in this country, we moan a bit and then get on with things.

 

[Flamingo]

Before you start shouting about unfairness, please answer the following questions.

1) You state "commuters in some parts of the Country" - where is this please ?

2) What is the journey ? A quick check has revealed an annual standard class season ticket from Birmingham to London works out at £5080 based on the cheapest option.

3) You state that the worst of the increases wont come into force until 2012. Does that reflect the figure you quoted and if so why when it is not a valid comparison ?

4) you refer to average wage but how many people on the "average wage" are going to be spending some 20% of their earnings on rail travel ? I suggest that the greater number of these commuters are earning considerably more. I also suggest they are travelling from choice of location.

5) The cost of travel equates to £118 per week based on a 44 working week year.

6) The cost of owning and running a petrol car of moderate size is 61.60p per mile based on 10,000 miles a year according to the AA. This would not be an unreasonable figure for a car doing a short distance commute and sitting in a work car park 5 days a week 48 weeks a year. Assuming that the average distance travelled to work is 20 miles per day, this equates to £12.34 per day, in other words £61.60 per week.

So £61.60 to travel a round journey of 20 miles per day as against £118.00 to travel how many more miles ?



And your problem was ????

Just looked at their site, long on hyperbole, short on facts. Don't worry about trying reasoned argument.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Am I the only person who finds it funny that there's no 't' on the end of his username?

I too agree that he is barking up the wrong tree, maybe if there were some examples and sources I would be more interested (which would not happen anyway).

 

[Old Timer]

Just looked at their site, long on hyperbole, short on facts. Don't worry about trying reasoned argument.

Yes, I have been told off about that before

Still does rather put their ranting into a form of perspective, and I have little else to do at the moment

Apparently the Boy Millipede and his stooges have been harping on today about the VAT increase affecting peoples shopping. Unfortunately it seems they, and the BBC tart who made the comment this morning, haven't yet realised that there is no VAT on food bought from the supermarket

 

[Flamingo]

Commuting is a lifestyle choice. If you are unhappy with 20% of your salary going on a season ticket then can I suggest moving within walking distance of your workplace thus incurring no transport costs. However, I rather suspect you'd be far more out of pocket what with increased mortgage payments...!

At the risk of digressing on what I suspect will be a rather boring thread full of the usual "bash the railways / why can't we all be nicer to each other" fare (pun intended);

I'd always considered that mortgage payments could be looked on as a form of investment / savings, as they are going towards something tangible, whereas commuting costs are "dead" money.

Discuss...

 

[CarterUSM]

They should set up a Facebook petition..............

 

[Geezertronic]

They should set up a Facebook petition..............

Not another one full of inaccuracies please... there's already enough anti HS2 ones on Facebook full of inaccuracies and emotive nonsense

 

[EM2]

... it seems they, and the BBC tart who made the comment this morning, haven't yet realised that there is no VAT on food bought from the supermarket

Well, there is on some items, such as chocolate biscuits. And of course, shopping doesn't just mean food. What about all the non-food items you have to buy? What about clothing? Ladies sanitary products? Shampoo? They're all VAT-able.

 

[island]

Ladies sanitary products?

I think this may be a bad example, somewhere buried deep inside my memory is an inkling that these are on the 5% VAT rate which didn't go up.

To the original post, right campaign, wrong forum. Matt Taylor sums it up perfectly.

 

[EM2]

I think this may be a bad example, somewhere buried deep inside my memory is an inkling that these are on the 5% VAT rate which didn't go up.

Indeed, but they are still VAT-able, and they are still 'shopping'.

 

[Terrafire]

But as tampons are on the unchanged 5% rate they're irrelevant to a discussion about the effects of the change in the rate of VAT.

 

[43021HST]

Heres some food for though regarding the prices of rail fares in Britain.
I'm comparing the cost of a 20 mile journey in Holland which happens to be from Amsterdam central to Utrecht Central. and the cost of a 20 mile journey from Charing Cross to sevenoaks in Britain.

Please note both fares are off peak singles and both journeys are the same length.

Charing Cross to Sevenoks in pounds £10.10

Amsterdam to Utrecht in pounds £3.39

 

[jon0844]

I'm not asking for sympathy for the price increase on a season ticket as I made the choice to move outside London and then get a job in Z1.

However, since 2002/3 the increases have been pretty significant - and in the next 2-3 years it's going to get far worse when the rate of increase rises. Certainly I'll be paying more than double what I did soon, and I certainly didn't know at the time what the increases would be as they've varied year on year.

In fact, I'd actually rather a set increase every year - with no trickery to increase some, cut others and mess around with the validity of certain tickets. If I, and everyone else, knew that fares would rise by 5% every year then I could calculate years in advance. The thing is, 5% would be too low as it's likely we'll be seeing increases of around 10% soon, and for me that would be £350 next year, and because the increase is compounded, even more the following year even if remained at 10%.

Once you've got a job, it's not easy for everyone to simply pack up and leave it. Of course, some jobs are just like that, but not mine. I doubt I'm alone.

I also think, and accept some may disagree, that commuting for work is more important (and should be protected to a degree) than leisure travel, which is optional - just like buying many VATable goods. Yes, too many commuters means the need for loads of rolling stock that sits idle for much of the day, but as the population grows and everyone wants to work in cities (and thus employers set up there) this is a problem that won't go away.

Given I can't really give up my job, there might come a time when I have no choice but to consider another way to get to work - either by car (and it could be a small, highly fuel efficient car to offset the cost of fuel) with some way of arranging nearby parking, part train/part cycling or part bus. The bus would take ages, however, as it would involve multiple changes.

 

[BlythPower]

Cameron on VAT (May 2009):

You could try, as you say, to put it on VAT, sales tax, but again if you look at the effect of sales tax, it’s very regressive, it hits the poorest the hardest. It does, I absolutely promise you.

Any sales tax, anything that goes on purchases that you make in shops tends to . . . if you look at it, where VAT goes now it doesn’t go on food obviously but it goes very, very widely and VAT is a more regressive tax than income tax or council tax.

Dontcha just love politicians...

 

[Geezertronic]

Dontcha just love politicians...

Considering Blair and Brown, Cameron and Clegg have a long way before they get that bad

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Considering Blair and Brown, Cameron and Clegg have a long way before they get that bad

Yep, they've to get us into an illegal war, get the blood of thoousands of Iraqis and hundreds of soldiers on their hands... I don't blame anyone voting Labour this time round, but I hope you can sleep at night knowing you contributed to thousands of people's deaths. labour sicken me.

 

[Old Timer]

Cameron on VAT (May 2009):
You could try, as you say, to put it on VAT, sales tax, but again if you look at the effect of sales tax, it’s very regressive, it hits the poorest the hardest. It does, I absolutely promise you.

Any sales tax, anything that goes on purchases that you make in shops tends to . . . if you look at it, where VAT goes now it doesn’t go on food obviously but it goes very, very widely and VAT is a more regressive tax than income tax or council tax.

Dontcha just love politicians...

Pray do tell us what tax YOU would increase then, please ?

There is after all a £59bn black hole in Labour spending plans which they remain either unable or unwilling to explain how they will raise the money to close this.

From today's Spectator :-

Justine Greening has eviscerated the Shadow Chancellor for his economic illiteracy on the Today programme this morning. She writes:
‘He committed Labour (apparently by accident) to a brand new, job-destroying £13 billion increase in National Insurance to replace the VAT rise. He admitted that he didn’t know which year Labour would eliminate the structural deficit, initially telling the BBC it would be 2015-16 before later saying he “probably” meant 2016-17.
He was confused over when Labour’s own cuts would start, saying that 2011 “has to be about jobs and growth” not cuts, when in fact Labour’s own plans are for the biggest cuts to happen in 2011.
He hasn’t even read the Budget Red Book on which his economic plan is supposedly based, telling Evan Davis “you’ve probably read more of it than I have.”’

 

[Geezertronic]

Rather than hijack this thread, please can I suggest responses of this political nature are posted in our friends thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39335&page=4

(I'm guilty as charged too )

 

[me123]

From today commuters in some parts of the country are being asked to pay £5,192, or 20% of the average UK salary, for their annual season ticket. It’s outrageous – and if it is to change, you need to show how you feel about it.

Assuming this £5,192 figure is based on working in London (which I presume it is), have you considered that the average salary for people working in London is considerably more? If you haven't, that would be considered downright ignorant. If you have, then I would suggest that you're deliberately manipulating the data to achieve your aims.

The average weekly pay in London is £642[1] (making an "average" annual wage about £33,384pa). This is quite a bit more than the figure you've used (which I reckon to be about £25,960pa). When you then factor in the benefits of commuting, such as lower living costs in the suburbs than in the city (which is particularly true of London), then you can start to appreciate that although it's quite a hefty up-front payment every year, it's actually not a bad choice to commute into work. Indeed, that's the reason that commuter numbers are rising each and every year.

[1]http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

 

[Flamingo]

he seems to have vanished into the internet...

 

[me123]

Two possible reasons for that:
1) We've pointed out a number of holes in his original argument, and he can't face us
2) He never intended returning and was just using the forum to promote his own (frankly rather rubbish) website.

I suspect the latter.

It's really annoying when people do this. There is a genuine issue here, but his website and his post above have, if anything, harmed the cause through the use of ridiculous hyperbole and dubious (ab)use of facts.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

From what i can gather, this is the website reffered to:

http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/fairfares/

having read it, all i hacve to say is: What a load of rubbish, they are twisting the truth.

They say that people are being priced off trains, and that if fares were cheaper, more people would be able to use them, leading to..........

They say that in effect they get jack for what they pay, I know LM and FCC GN are constantly changing services, and rearraging stock to get seats to where they are needed, even LM advise in advance on the number of coaches, and they have introduced extra EUS-WFJ services to releive Birmingham/Northampton services. Sadly, they now have Palin onside, shame, I had always respected him.

 

[Flamingo]

Just followed the links off the website mentioned by the OP, it's actually run by the so-called "campaign for better transport". Their rail "experts" blog is the most ill-informed populist piece of tree-hugging misinformation I have seen in a long time. It makes the Daily Mail seem like the home of serious balanced journalism, and Guardian (to which she appears to be an occasional contributor) as dangerously right-wing.

I seriously doubt if she will appear here to answer hard questions. From the blog, I doubt if she has either the knowledge or experience to do so, just another self-appointed "expert".

 

[Old Timer]

Rather than give them the oxygen of publicity maybe the Mods should pull this thread entirely for the overall benefit of the Railway.

I for one would have no objection to that.

 

[Flamingo]

Rather than give them the oxygen of publicity maybe the Mods should pull this thread entirely for the overall benefit of the Railway.

I for one would have no objection to that.

+1

 

[atomicdanny]

This group seems to have the support of the MPs as well especially this one, who I honestly think is making a lot of that up! (I'm not defending southeastern but he makes them sound like they are gangs and doing raising the fares just for more money for themselves!)

http://markreckless.com/2011/01/02/southeastern-not-fit-for-purpose/