Potential DfT/ORR Consultation On Diversionary Routes/Rail Replacement Bus Services?

[Bletchleyite]

Privatisation didn't kill S&C diversions, Virgin Trains have done it lots of times, even relatively recently. And then there were the 15 car Voyager "blockade busters".

 

[The Planner]

Lots of replies have already noted the salient points with this, but unless GBR magically solves all of this it is going to come down to one thing, money.

People also shouldn't get excited assuming that trains are going to be travelling on lots of new wild and ren pen type routes, they are not. What will happen is that certain routes will get used that make sense, are easy to deal with and that is about it.

As it stands TOCs and FOCs will not divert unless they have route knowledge, someone is going to route conduct them, it works logistically for diagrams and end customers and someone pays for it. Schedule 4 compensation will not cover it in the vast majority of cases. COVID has smashed route knowledge apart for TOCs and FOCs so unless they are route conducted or have a massive increase in route learning and everything that goes with it (retention etc) then again, it isn't going to make a big dent. FOCs are really struggling on this too.

If people are expecting Avanti to go via the S&C then it will have trade offs. To use the 805/7s then North Wales, Birmingham and the second Liverpool (which doesn't have rights yet) will all get culled on the day to facilitate it. Same goes for other TOCs, XC are probably the best at dealing with diversions and they already undertake a lot of what is possible, Northern are prepared to do more than most too. LNER are up for doing different things, Chiltern have mooted that they would accept New St with conductors if needed in the past but its never got that far. GWR have done the Chilterns in the past and so on.

People have noted about WCML and ECML being shut at the same time. That is already a golden rule, there has to be a route to/from Scotland. Other rules exist where you cannot cut of a portion of the country.

As other have mentioned too, diversionary paths are at a premium. What may well have to happen is other TOCs not affected by works have to thin out their services to allow diversions. If they are not directly impacted by the engineering works the first answer is normally "No".

It feels like a "lets do the right thing" but I wouldn't expect anything ground shaking.

 

[30907]

So that's why Virgin stopped running diversions via the S&C is it? Because the next franchisee might introduce EMUs 10 years in the future.

No, because they didn't have enough Voyagers for a sensible service and didn't want to use Thunderbirds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, because they didn't have enough Voyagers for a sensible service and didn't want to use Thunderbirds.

There are enough Voyagers for a sensible service, they have just moved away from the drivers and guards having the extra route knowledge, most likely for cost reasons.

 

[JonathanH]

There are enough Voyagers for a sensible service, they have just moved away from the drivers and guards having the extra route knowledge, most likely for cost reasons.

Only as single units. I suspect that even though people claim that passengers prefer a diverted train to using buses, the longer journey time did put off a large number of passengers even when the diversions used to run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only as single units.

You could avoid overcrowding there by setting the compulsory reservation flag on those services, and beefing it up with buses. Would be interesting to see what people would choose given the choice. Some would choose the bus if quicker, but I reckon more wouldn't.

I suspect that even though people claim that passengers prefer a diverted train to using buses, the longer journey time did put off a large number of passengers even when the diversions used to run.

Certainly longer journey times will put people off, e.g. 3+ hour London-Manchester times when they run via Brum. But buses will make the journey time longer anyway. I doubt anyone would choose train to Stafford, bus to Rugby, train to Euston over a train diverted via Brum unless the price for the bus was considerably lower.

 

[TheBigD]

People have noted about WCML and ECML being shut at the same time. That is already a golden rule, there has to be a route to/from Scotland. Other rules exist where you cannot cut of a portion of the country.

Are there any rules about the MML with regard to either the WCML or ECML being shut?
I know in previous years there has been occasions when the MML has had to operate a reduced service (4 tph vice 5) when either of the E/WCML have been shut.

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There are enough Voyagers for a sensible service, they have just moved away from the drivers and guards having the extra route knowledge, most likely for cost reasons.

Only as single units. I suspect that even though people claim that passengers prefer a diverted train to using buses, the longer journey time did put off a large number of passengers even when the diversions used to run.

AWC currently have 20 x 5 car 221s, so around 17(?) available for daily use.

2 required for Shrewsbury.
7 or 8 required for Chester/North Wales.
So that leaves 7 or 8 to play with.

Is 7 or 8 x 5 car 256 seat trains really sufficient for a decent service Preston-S&C-Glasgow?

And Avanti will soon only have 13 bimode 5 car 805s to work with...

 

[IBLRG]

Due to an ongoing problem for years with a canal bridge just outside Scunthorpe at Keadby.

It has being put forward to Trans Pennine Express for a number of years that's if they were to reroute their trains via Brigg it would solve the logistical nightmare of units and crew all over the place.

This could also solve a problem of an early morning Saturday passenger service, calling at Brigg, Kirton in Lindsey, Gainsborough Central Retford and Worksop, and late night service returning to Cleethorpes to Sandwich the present Saturday only service provided by Northern on the route.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Maybe if the WCML is shut Preston to Carlisle it might be worth extending 1tph of LNER through from Edinburgh to Central via Shotts or Carstairs so there's still a "direct" Glasgow > London 1tph?

 

[swt_passenger]

How long is it since the last ORR consultation on this subject? Seems to be familiar territory.

 

[James90012]

Maybe if the WCML is shut Preston to Carlisle it might be worth extending 1tph of LNER through from Edinburgh to Central via Shotts or Carstairs so there's still a "direct" Glasgow > London 1tph?

I was about to reply with something similar - I don't think the answer is in 'this TOC faces disruption, this TOC must manage it and therefore invest in diversionary routes, etc.' - the real benefits would come by seeing the TOCs as one, and looking at whether there are ways to line up and do things like that. Another example could be for LNER to run Glasgow - Carlisle - Newcastle - London when Avanti is disrupted. Of course it comes with additional resources and costs, and something would have to give on the LNER route but perhaps that would be better for passengers.

 

[Whistler40145]

CrossCountry should have Crewe to Wolverhampton via Shrewsbury as a diversionary route

 

[JonathanH]

CrossCountry should have Crewe to Wolverhampton via Shrewsbury as a diversionary route

Why? They used to run via Nuneaton for a block on that route.

 

[Whistler40145]

Why? They used to run via Nuneaton for a block on that route.

Rather long route and what do you do if Crewe to Stafford via the mainline or Crewe to Stafford via Stoke on Trent or direct to Colwich isn’t available

 

[JonathanH]

Rather long route and what do you do if Crewe to Stafford via the mainline or Crewe to Stafford via Stoke on Trent or direct to Colwich isn’t available

Is it really likely that none of those routes is available. Should Avanti be able to run WCML through services via Shrewsbury as well?

 

[Whistler40145]

Is it really likely that none of those routes is available. Should Avanti be able to run WCML through services via Shrewsbury as well?

When it was al under BR many WCML services would be diverted from Crewe to Wolverhampton via Shrewsbury

 

[Peregrine 4903]

This is also about not having enough space to turn all the trains at Gatwick/Three Bridges during the 9-day blockade of Haywards Heath. Other considerations might include that the roads in the area are regularly congested and that Gatwick and Three Bridges parking is either expensive or scarce so trying to avoid people driving to the railhead is desirable.

I think its more about providing Littlehampton and the West Coastway stations with a direct service instead. This diversion always happens when this possession occurs, so it isn't a unique thing just for the blockade.

 

[The Planner]

Rather long route and what do you do if Crewe to Stafford via the mainline or Crewe to Stafford via Stoke on Trent or direct to Colwich isn’t available

Unless it was a catastrophic failure, you wouldn't block both of those routes at the same time. XC sign both ways on those routes anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

Avanti do not have enough Bi-modes on order to consider sending them via the Settle & Carlisle line without passengers having to change trains at Preston and Carlisle. TPE isn't going that way either.

When the WCML is shut the ECML is open and as many passengers as possible should be directed to the other route for through journeys. Using the Settle & Carlisle line is total nonsense.

Other diversionary routes are not such a detour such as those used for ECML closures and well worth using to maintain through journeys.

In disruption/engineering works, I'm sure most passengers would rather change to another train than a bus.

 

[JonathanH]

In disruption/engineering works, I'm sure most passengers would rather change to another train than a bus.

Yes, but I think it has to be recognised that it is better to plan around missing the area altogether than going through the disrupted location.

I appreciate that ticket restrictions don't always make this easy.

 

[TheBigD]

Lumo haven't run south of Newcastle at weekends since 2nd January this year and won't be until 2nd April...

 

[Whistler40145]

Lumo haven't run south of Newcastle at weekends since 2nd January this year and won't be until 2nd April...

Is that due to Engineering Work South of Peterborough?

 

[JonathanH]

Is that due to Engineering Work South of Peterborough?

South of Newcastle and South of York. For work south of Doncaster, they ran Edinburgh to Doncaster for passengers to change to Hull Trains.

 

[TheBigD]

South of Newcastle and South of York. For work south of Doncaster, they ran Edinburgh to Doncaster for passengers to change to Hull Trains.

November diversions via the Joint Line.
One train a day (0536) Edinburgh to Doncaster, ecs to Tyne Yard, back to Doncaster, and the in service to Edinburgh (2015). Connected in to/out of a 10 car Hull Trains service to/from King's Cross via the Joint Line. Decent bit of cooperation between the two First Group operators.
They didn't repeat it for the Cambridge diversions though.

 

[northwichcat]

Sounds good on paper but can we imagine Northern having crews sufficient crews trained to be able to run some late night or Sunday services from Altrincham to Chester via Warrington, Crewe to Liverpool via Denton or Crewe to Manchester via Middlewich?

 

[Bald Rick]

If people are expecting Avanti to go via the S&C then it will have trade offs. To use the 805/7s then North Wales, Birmingham and the second Liverpool (which doesn't have rights yet) will all get culled on the day to facilitate it.

I’m reasonably confident there won’t be 807s via the S&C!

 

[The Planner]

I’m reasonably confident there won’t be 807s via the S&C!

So am I, but trying to manage red pen expectations....

 

[Bald Rick]

meanwhile, during a block of the ECML at Newark, en route from York to Kings Cross, I have caught an RRB Newark to Grantham. I arrived at the latter before the *previous* train from York (which was diverted via the joint line) came through.

simetimes buses can be quicker…

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So am I, but trying to manage red pen expectations....

outside chance of an 805, but def not an 807!

 

[TheBigD]

meanwhile, during a block of the ECML at Newark, en route from York to Kings Cross, I have caught an RRB Newark to Grantham. I arrived at the latter before the *previous* train from York (which was diverted via the joint line) came through.

simetimes buses can be quicker…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

Was that recent?
Joint Line since the 2013 upgrade is now a decent diversionary route. Before it was around 2hr20m Doncaster to Peterborough but now, with a clear run, just 1hr40m, compared to 50-60 minute* journey time on the main line.
*depending on the stopping pattern.

 

[Bald Rick]

Was that recent?
Joint Line since the 2013 upgrade is now a decent diversionary route. Before it was around 2hr20m Doncaster to Peterborough but now, with a clear run, just 1hr40m, compared to 50-60 minute* journey time on the main line.
*depending on the stopping pattern.

recent in my mind, but actually 18 years ago