Disabled adult penalty fare.

[LowLevel]

A company cannot dismiss someone instantly for gross misconduct without suspension and investigation, and a hearing, or deny them the right to lodge a grievance or appeal.


Yes, agreed. This can be done by completing the form here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/NR-Subject-Access-Request-Form.pdf


I suspect the guard is not allowed to simply rifle through a person's wheelchair without invitation. Others may be able to offer advice more specific than this, but a wheelchair is in effect an extension of a disabled person and this is akin to dipping your hand into someone's pocket.

On the other hand, the person is obliged to present a ticket for inspection. It sounds as if the way it was handled and the outcome was a total shambles - but the ticket must still be available for inspection and some responsibility has to lie with the passenger to ensure that can happen and the railway should be accommodating in that.

We have some regular passengers in similar circumstances and they invariably tell you to get their ticket out of a specific location and ask you to put it back for them, job done. Not inspecting the ticket during a revenue check isn't really the answer.

 

[exbrel]

arn't there cameras on board the train?

 

[Unjustcarer]

I suppose the issue is that the RPI probably felt he had been invited, but in fact had not.

However, showing one's ticket is mandatory on request, so the time to prevent that would have been on being boarded, by asking for it to be given back. Otherwise you're effectively in "refusal to produce" territory, and in that case issue of a PF (or writing up for prosecution) would be correct. Having a disability does not excuse one from producing one's ticket.

My father is physically unable to get into the back compartment where the TPE staff put the ticket in the wheelchair without assistance. Normally in the past what happens is my father explains to the guard his ticket has been purchased with the help of the station staff who put him in the train and this is acceptable. In future he could maybe keep the ticket on him but if he dropped it or it fell he wouldn't be able to pick it back up.

I did have a read into this and have seen virgin trains have a buy on board scheme where if you have a disabled railcard (which my father does) you can buy the ticket on board. Does northern rail not have the same scheme in place? This all feels a bit heavy handed to me. I rang up Northern rail complaints and they told me they don't deal with PF complaints whilst they are still in action.

 

[AlterEgo]

I did have a read into this and have seen virgin trains have a buy on board scheme where if you have a disabled railcard (which my father does) you can buy the ticket on board. Does northern rail not have the same scheme in place? This all feels a bit heavy handed to me. I rang up Northern rail complaints and they told me they don't deal with PF complaints whilst they are still in action.

Virgin Trains does not exist any more.

Nonetheless, you are permitted to buy on board with Disabled Railcard if you were unable to purchase one at the station because of your disability (for example, you cannot use the machines and there is no accessible counter at the ticket office).

I would gently urge you to contact Northern's press office and a local newspaper. Press office email: press.office(AT)northernrailway.co.uk

 

[Unjustcarer]

I suppose the issue is that the RPI probably felt he had been invited, but in fact had not.

However, showing one's ticket is mandatory on request, so the time to prevent that would have been on being boarded, by asking for it to be given back. Otherwise you're effectively in "refusal to produce" territory, and in that case issue of a PF (or writing up for prosecution) would be correct. Having a disability does not excuse one from producing one's ticket.

My father did not give consent for his wheelchair to be searched. But understands how this could of been implied from him saying his ticket was in the wheelchair. Is there any point of me offering to pay the difference between the TPE only ticket and the anytime ticket in my appeal. As this is what from my limited understanding my father owes Northern rail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

Virgin Trains does not exist any more.

Nonetheless, you are permitted to buy on board with Disabled Railcard if you were unable to purchase one at the station because of your disability (for example, you cannot use the machines and there is no accessible counter at the ticket office).

I would gently urge you to contact Northern's press office and a local newspaper. Press office email: press.office(AT)northernrailway.co.uk

I will do so. Hopefully this will resolve the issue

 

[AlterEgo]

My father did not give consent for his wheelchair to be searched. But understands how this could of been implied from him saying his ticket was in the wheelchair. Is there any point of me offering to pay the difference between the TPE only ticket and the anytime ticket in my appeal. As this is what from my limited understanding my father owes Northern rail.

You should pay nothing because he had permission to be on the train. He was loaded onto it by the person who assisted him in buying the ticket and was only on it because the railway was unable to accommodate him on his chosen train.

 

[Class800]

Having a disability does not excuse one from producing one's ticket.

Unless the disability prevents the person from presenting the ticket?

If anyone is contacting press, please consider drumming up support for a ban on PFs to disabled people

But we do need to focus on helping the OP

 

[Bletchleyite]

If anyone is contacting press, please consider drumming up support for a ban on PFs to disabled people

That would be silly. Do you think there aren't wilful fare evaders among wheelchair users?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

My father did not give consent for his wheelchair to be searched. But understands how this could of been implied from him saying his ticket was in the wheelchair.

If he wasn't able to retrieve it, then it would be a choice between letting someone else retrieve it with his consent, or accepting a PF as he would be refusing to produce his ticket. So this might not be a good line to go down.

But equally, the assistance staff shouldn't be putting it where it was inaccessible, unless he told them to? In that case a complaint would be sensible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW if you were going to campaign for anything with genuine benefit over and above fixing the issue of misbehaving RPIs (who no doubt misbehave in all manner of contexts), entirely free travel for those with Blue Badge entitlement wouldn't be a bad one, and wouldn't cost all that much. It could be given out by way of an ITSO card given on successfully applying for a Blue Badge.

 

[Class800]

That would be silly. Do you think there aren't wilful fare evaders among wheelchair users?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

Might be some - but is surely more important to protect genuine disabled people from being put in an even more difficult position. The optics are poor too of a PF for a disabled person. The reasonable adjustment should be no PFs. But we need to help the OP while trying to improve the overall situation. I have to go soon as lunch break ending

 

[WesternLancer]

I rang up Northern rail complaints and they told me they don't deal with PF complaints whilst they are still in action.

Ignore that response on the phone and write to them anyway. It's a stock response ref PF's and whilst no doubt correct you need to have stuff in writing to progress this (so a written complaint makes it far easier for you to copy that to your father's MP, the local paper etc etc - phone calls whilst seemingly attractive will never or very rarely get you through to a person who can make the decision ' hang on , we need to stop this before we get our fingers burned with bad publicity'.

My strong advice is to progress the steps I have listed above.

I know it always seems quicker to ring up, but ultimately it's not as it will take you more time, and will not get the result you need, in the time taken to write a post here you can probably compose a complaint to TPE and Northern, e-mail it - cut and paste that you your father's local MP etc etc

Focus on writing the appeal draft and the customer services complaint draft is my strong advice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might be some - but is surely more important to protect genuine disabled people from being put in an even more difficult position. The optics are poor too of a PF for a disabled person. The reasonable adjustment should be no PFs. But we need to help the OP while trying to improve the overall situation. I have to go soon as lunch break ending

I think I'd repeat my call for a flat ban on giving permission to travel beyond ticket validity without doing so in writing (e.g. a national standard "back on track" form as some TOCs use). If it had been done in writing, none of thise would have occurred.

If given in writing, if there was a problem it could be tracked back to who gave it and appropriate discussions had, but the passenger not inconvenienced.

 

[Unjustcarer]

That would be silly. Do you think there aren't wilful fare evaders among wheelchair users?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==



If he wasn't able to retrieve it, then it would be a choice between letting someone else retrieve it with his consent, or accepting a PF as he would be refusing to produce his ticket. So this might not be a good line to go down.

But equally, the assistance staff shouldn't be putting it where it was inaccessible, unless he told them to? In that case a complaint would be sensible.

In the past my father has always used TPE. The person who checks his ticket is normally at the gateline and this is accepted

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the past my father has always used TPE. The person who checks his ticket is normally at the gateline and this is accepted

It is mandatory to produce one's ticket at any time when asked to do so by a railway employee or contractor entitled to do so. Producing it once doesn't absolve one from producing it again if asked.

 

[Class800]

It is mandatory to produce one's ticket at any time when asked to do so by a railway employee or contractor entitled to do so. Producing it once doesn't absolve one from producing it again if asked.

But if the person physically can't - this is a perilous area. This term really needed changing

Got to go - but I wish the OP well. And Northern's phone response is discriminatory too - not engaging with a disability issue, so could add that to the complaint. Keep positive and let us know how it goes

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if the person physically can't - this is a perilous area. This term really needed changing

It's incumbent on them to ensure that they can, and there are options for that e.g. (and I've seen this) putting it in a clear wallet worn on their person (though just in an accessible pocket would do). It is not a reasonable adjustment to not perform any revenue checks on wheelchair users who have options to provide tickets. That would be an unreasonable adjustment.

Did the member of staff assisting ask if the ticket could be placed in an inaccessible pocket, or just do so? It appears that person was the one who caused that part of the problem by doing so. I just can't see why anyone would do that, it'd be like a member of gateline staff putting my ticket in my rucksack side pocket instead of giving it to me.

 

[Class800]

I will have to disagree with you and think your view point is discriminatory - but we need to help the OP and not battle it out on views.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will have to disagree with you and think your view point is discriminatory - but we need to help the OP and not battle it out on views.

Regardless of our views, it is mandatory to produce one's ticket on request, and there are strict-liability legal consequences for failure to do so. Whether that should change is indeed a debate for later, but that is how it is now. If one couldn't do that themselves, the only practical way to perform that legal duty is to instruct someone else on how to retrieve it.

 

[43096]

If he wasn't able to retrieve it, then it would be a choice between letting someone else retrieve it with his consent, or accepting a PF as he would be refusing to produce his ticket. So this might not be a good line to go down.

Really? How does that sit with equality legislation.

You are coming across as, at best, cold hearted with your line of reasoning. It’s not a good look.

 

[STINT47]

I'm not sure if an appeal would be successful on this occasion due to

1. A penalty fare can be charged when using a TOC specific ticket on the wrong TOC.

2. Whilst I understand that the passenger was put on a Northern service by a staff member they should have got the ticket endorsed by said staff member to show that they had arranged this. Without an endorsement there is no way to know what happened so in view of the lack of evidence the appeals team will assume that no authority was given.

3. If the staff would not endorse the ticket the passenger should insist on buying a new ticket or refuse to be placed on the train. By doing neither they accepted the possibility of a penalty fare being charged.

4. The passenger must produce a valid ticket on demand. If the ticket was in a place that the passenger did not have access to then they failed to do this and a penalty fare is applicable.

Whilst this may appear harsh and I am sorry but on this occasion I can see an appeal being rejected.

The OP may have more luck raising a civil case under the equality act to show that the penalty fare system is discriminatory and seek compensation through this method.

 

[Haywain]

He booked passenger assistance to travel from Liverpool Lime Street station to travel to Manchester Piccadily.

His friend helped him into the station where he was meant to get passanger assistance but the staff was late and his friend had to leave due to work commitments.

Eventually a member of TPE ( i think TPE) staff turned up and helped my father buy a TPE only ticket to Manchester which he placed into the back compartment of my fathers wheelchair. He then took my father down to the platform but the train was too full to fit the wheelchair on. The staff member apologised and instead put my father onto a Northern train instead going to Manchester (knowing he held a TPE only ticket).

Passenger assistance is often provided by one company at Network Rail operated stations, such as Lime Street. That could be Network Rail themselves or one of the train operators but I don't know which it will be on this occasion. As your father had booked assistance, there will be a record of the booking and of which member of staff gave assistance. I think it would be appropriate to establish which company it was and contact them for the provision of more information and an investigation into what happened (including the ticket purchase). I also feel that the failure of the booked assistance to be provided is subject for a complaint regardless of the reasons, as is the failure to get your father onto the booked train (the latter is definitely a fault on the part of TPE) - trains have wheelchair spaces and these should be kept clear of both luggage and passengers to allow access for those requiring the dedicated space.


Edit: From the website it looks like Network Rail provide assistance at Lime Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passenger assistance is often provided by one company at Network Rail operated stations, such as Lime Street. That could be Network Rail themselves or one of the train operators but I don't know which it will be on this occasion. As your father had booked assistance, there will be a record of the booking and of which member of staff gave assistance. I think it would be appropriate to establish which company it was and contact them for the provision of more information and an investigation into what happened (including the ticket purchase). I also feel that the failure of the booked assistance to be provided is subject for a complaint regardless of the reasons, as is the failure to get your father onto the booked train (the latter is definitely a fault on the part of TPE) - trains have wheelchair spaces and these should be kept clear of both luggage and passengers to allow access for those requiring the dedicated space.

If the train is physically full and standing, i.e. there is neither space for another able bodied nor wheelchair using passenger, then I don't think there is any such entitlement. There certainly is not on a bus.

To the OP - did he decline the train because it was busy, was it busy but the wheelchair space was e.g. full of junk, or was it literally full and standing?

 

[Unjustcarer]

If the train is physically full and standing, i.e. there is neither space for another able bodied nor wheelchair using passenger, then I don't think there is any such entitlement. There certainly is not on a bus.

To the OP - did he decline the train because it was busy, was it busy but the wheelchair space was e.g. full of junk, or was it literally full and standing?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

I asked my father and he said the train was full including people standing so the staff member who purchased the ticket with him apologised and took him to a different train where he could get on

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

I'm not sure if an appeal would be successful on this occasion due to

1. A penalty fare can be charged when using a TOC specific ticket on the wrong TOC.

2. Whilst I understand that the passenger was put on a Northern service by a staff member they should have got the ticket endorsed by said staff member to show that they had arranged this. Without an endorsement there is no way to know what happened so in view of the lack of evidence the appeals team will assume that no authority was given.

3. If the staff would not endorse the ticket the passenger should insist on buying a new ticket or refuse to be placed on the train. By doing neither they accepted the possibility of a penalty fare being charged.

4. The passenger must produce a valid ticket on demand. If the ticket was in a place that the passenger did not have access to then they failed to do this and a penalty fare is applicable.

Whilst this may appear harsh and I am sorry but on this occasion I can see an appeal being rejected.

The OP may have more luck raising a civil case under the equality act to show that the penalty fare system is discriminatory and seek compensation through this method.

I hope it can be appealed as this seems unjust to me. Fingers crossed

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope it can be appealed as this seems unjust to me. Fingers crossed

It is unjust to me too, specifically because a member of staff essentially not only gave permission to travel but actually caused him to travel. An able bodied person could decide to get off again, he couldn't.

 

[Haywain]

It is unjust to me too, specifically because a member of staff essentially not only gave permission to travel but actually caused him to travel. An able bodied person could decide to get off again, he couldn't.

I wonder if the staff member who assisted in buying the ticket actually understood the restrictions of that ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if the staff member who assisted in buying the ticket actually understood the restrictions of that ticket.

Quite possibly not. But that needs to be seen as a railway internal problem, really. The situation of a wheelchair assistance bod putting someone on a train where they couldn't alight and thus couldn't avoid being penalised is a very nasty situation indeed.

 

[MadMarsupial]

Cock ups happen but surely Northern could arrange for the PF to be cancelled today. They will be crucified in the press when this gets out - as it will!

 

[Starmill]

The Penalty Fare is clearly incorrect because the at Liverpool Lime Street there was an authorised person who gave their permission. It's not relevant whether they should or should not have done so but it's 100% clear through their actions of assisting the customer onto the train that they did.

 

[HST274]

Regardless of our views, it is mandatory to produce one's ticket on request, and there are strict-liability legal consequences for failure to do so. Whether that should change is indeed a debate for later, but that is how it is now. If one couldn't do that themselves, the only practical way to perform that legal duty is to instruct someone else on how to retrieve it.

But by the sound of it the officer did not ask but just rifled for the ticket. In the same vein did the OP's father refuse to tell the officer how to access it? If not as I assume (Maybe I'm getting the story twisted) it sounds as if 'Would you mind instructing me how to access the ticket in your wheelchair so I can check it' would have fixed the problem, however the officer did not seek proper consent but assumed it was present from the OP's father's words.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But by the sound of it the officer did not ask but just rifled for the ticket. In the same vein did the OP's father refuse to tell the officer how to access it? If not as I assume (Maybe I'm getting the story twisted) it sounds as if 'Would you mind instructing me how to access the ticket in your wheelchair so I can check it' would have fixed the problem, however the officer did not seek proper consent but assumed it was present from the OP's father's words.

If the conversation went thus:

"Can I see your ticket please?"
"The assistance bloke put it in the back of my chair"

I think most reasonable people would interpret that as an invitation to grab it from there, if there was an obvious pocket. Until it came up on here in the past I wasn't aware wheelchair users felt their chair was part of their body rather than e.g. analogous to a rucksack, and so I suspect a lot of others don't understand that either.

If they did interpret it that way, as I think most would, then there's a training omission there.

However, I don't see that once you've got there there would be much option but to give consent. Showing your ticket when requested is legally mandatory. If the OP's father wanted control of that process, then he'd need to insist it was returned to his hand. If it then wasn't, then that's a problem as a direct instruction was needed, and some people do have a habit of ignoring wheelchair users' instructions as if they didn't matter, so I'd not rule that out either.