Disabled adult penalty fare.

[Unjustcarer]

Hello everyone.

My disabled autistic wheelchair bound father has received a penalty fare yesterday from Northern rail despite buying a ticket, i was hoping to appeal it but would like some advice.

My father is 86 and wheelchair bound with limited mobility due to various health problems.

He booked passenger assistance to travel from Liverpool Lime Street station to travel to Manchester Piccadily.

His friend helped him into the station where he was meant to get passanger assistance but the staff was late and his friend had to leave due to work commitments.

Eventually a member of TPE ( i think TPE) staff turned up and helped my father buy a TPE only ticket to Manchester which he placed into the back compartment of my fathers wheelchair. He then took my father down to the platform but the train was too full to fit the wheelchair on. The staff member apologised and instead put my father onto a Northern train instead going to Manchester (knowing he held a TPE only ticket).

At Huyton penalty fare officers joined the train and asked to see his ticket. My father explained he could not access his ticket as it was in the back on the wheelchair. The PF officer apparently smirked and went through my fathers wheelchair without his permission before finding the ticket and telling him he was a fare evader and this ticket was not valid as it was TPE only. My father tried to explain what had happened but had no luck and the PF officer proceeded to tell him he was going to prison unless he gave his details. My father is not happy.

I am shocked as to what has happened here and would like to know if there js anyway to appeal this as it seems wrong....

 

[Class800]

This seems a very unsatisfactory situation. There are three issues:

1. The ticket was not valid for the train
2. The passenger was following instruction from the railway
3. The PF officer's conduct may have contravened the Equality Act, with its requirements for reasonable adjustments.
4. The PF officer made incorrect threats - ticketing issues are not a prison matter

Await others' views - but I would personally suggest a formal complaint asking for refund of the PF, clearing the records to ensure the person's name is cleared, and appropriate compensation. Northern should also dismiss the PF officer - but all you can ask for is an investigation

 

[AlterEgo]

If I’d have seen an elderly man in a wheelchair being issued a PF I would have taken the RPI’s penalty fare pad and ripped it up and taken whatever consequences followed.

Appalling.

You should lodge an appeal against the penalty fare, specifically stating that your father, who is disabled and unable to board trains alone, was put onto the train by a member of railway staff and was assisted to buy his ticket by the same member of staff.

You should raise this issue with the following parties, too:

1) Your MP
2) Your local disability/age concern rights groups
3) The local press

Give them both barrels.

 

[NorthWestRover]

This is the most egregious example of poor staff behaviour I have ever read on this forum (the revenue staff, I mean).

Good luck in taking it all the way.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Open and shut case in the original posters favour. The crown prosecution service will not touch this if it got that far and I think even the police would have some serious issues with their conscience if they were asked to intervene here. The RPI has I can confirm breached the equality act on several occasions and and whilst the TransPennine only ticket should probably have been accessed once the the fact he was travelling on a Northern train was established the member of railway staff acted in good faith and should they really want to go into the nuts and bolts of it I'm sure they would be witnesses and closed circuit television from the trains involved and lime Street station to bear out the story given. Not only should this be revoked as soon as possible but heads should be rolling and compensation should be flowing. Absolutely no way at all that anyone is going to look seriously at this one 100 then management realising how seriously they've cocked up

 

[duncanp]

I would have thought that the fact that the staff member put the OPs father on a Northern train, having just purchased a TPE only ticket for him, is implied permission to travel on that service.

The Equality Act obliges service providers to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people, and I think that waiving the "TPE only" condition is one such reasonable adjustment, given that the TPE service was too full to board someone in a wheelchair.

Whatever the circumstances, threatening someone, particularly a vulnerable person, with prison is completely inexcusable and I hope the person responsilbe is subject to disciplinary action.

This sort of behaviour gets the railway a bad name.

 

[robbeech]

There’s not a huge amount I can add to this that hasn’t been said already and will be said by many others, I’m sure everyone will know my views, although I have some specific points. The Railway should hang it’s head in shame but I suspect it’s just a game to the revenue teams. What I will point out though is :

1. The ticket was not valid for the train
2. The passenger was following instruction from the railway
3. The PF officer's conduct may have contravened the Equality Act, with its requirements for reasonable adjustments.
4. The PF officer made incorrect threats - ticketing issues are not a prison matter

1. It was valid for the train for the simple fact of (2.). They had permission to board from an authorised member of staff. We don’t care who they say is authorised, with the absence of information to show who isn’t authorised then everyone is authorised be it passenger assist, the train presentation team or Gerry taking photos with his 2009 operator uniform from eBay on.
2. They weren’t following instructions they were physically placed on the train.
3. It unquestionably has.
4. This is common for threats like this to be made. They’re just upset they didn’t make into into the police force.

If I’d have seen an elderly man in a wheelchair being issued a PF I would have taken the RPI’s penalty fare pad and ripped it up and taken whatever consequences followed.

I suspect you’d have a lot of paper cuts by the end of the week if you did this everytime they did something this ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would have thought that the fact that the staff member put the OPs father on a Northern train, having just purchased a TPE only ticket for him, is implied permission to travel on that service.

The Equality Act obliges service providers to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people, and I think that waiving the "TPE only" condition is one such reasonable adjustment, given that the TPE service was too full to board someone in a wheelchair.

It is probably the case that the member of staff exceeded their authority by putting them on the train without first asking Northern Control if it was OK. However, we need to stop the passenger suffering consequences for staff misconduct - if the staff acted out of line, we have a disciplinary process for that, and the ticket processes too (withdraw, issue a free replacement, send for investigation) - not PFs.

Whatever the circumstances, threatening someone, particularly a vulnerable person, with prison is completely inexcusable and I hope the person responsilbe is subject to disciplinary action.

This sort of behaviour gets the railway a bad name.

Agreed, if this is as alleged then it is disgraceful and I hope the PF inspector involved is severely disciplined.

 

[mike57]

Unfortunately there are a few bad apples amongst the revenue staff. TOCs need to make it clear that this sort of behaviour will lead to instant dismissal, no warnings, no greivance procedure, hand your stuff in and leave. With CCTV just about everywhere its very easy to confirm any accusations quickly, and if the behaviour crosses a line then instant dismissal should result.

The majority of revenue staff are reasonable in my experience, but the bad apple turns the public against all of them. I witnessed a revenue staff person bullying (thats the only word to describe it) an elderly woman who had boarded the wrong train at Garforth some time ago. In this case the comments from other passengers convinced him that he was headed for trouble and he left her alone whilst mumbling threats 'to have everyone thrown off the train' at the next stop.

I know they have to deal with an assortment of ner'do wells who think they can travel for nothing, and it probably gets wearing after a while, but if their own common sense cannot determine the genuine mistake from the persistent offender then they are in the wrong job.

 

[AlterEgo]

TOCs need to make it clear that this sort of behaviour will lead to instant dismissal, no warnings, no greivance procedure, hand your stuff in and leave. With CCTV just about everywhere its very easy to confirm any accusations quickly, and if the behaviour crosses a line then instant dismissal should result.

Let me introduce you to something called employment law.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

To try and deal with the immediate problem:

- make sure that what your father has been given is, indeed, a penalty fare. The thing is, there are all sorts of bits of paper that the railway issues to passengers and it's easy for any of us to get confused over quite what's happening!
- assuming it is a penalty fare, then there are instructions on how to appeal about two thirds of the way down https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares:

Is there a right of appeal against a Penalty Fare?

If you wish to appeal against a Penalty Fare you must do so in writing within 21 days after the date of the issue and send it to the appeals address on the Penalty Fare notice. The appeals body adheres to an agreed Code of Practice in the assessment of all appeals. The independent appeals service will consider all the facts presented to them on appeal and notify the appellant of the outcome.

To make or track an appeal you should visit www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/

or write to:

Penalty Services

PO Box 1258

KING'S LYNN

PE30 9GJ

- when your father appeals, it's important to separate the appeal from any complaint that he might want to make about the conduct of Northern's staff. So by all means explain everything in your first post, and @Class800 's first three points - but be aware that all that the penalty fare appeals process can do is sort out the penalty fare. So by all means tell the penalty fare appeal that your father is making a complaint - but the complaint will have to be made separately
- along with (I think) everyone here, I also think that your father should complain about the way Northern treated him. Northern's website says this at https://help.northernrailway.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/360006093978:

How to make a complaint​

Customers are at the heart of all that we do. However, sometimes things go wrong and we may not be able to provide the level of service that we promised. We value any feedback that our customers provide and use this in positive way to improve the level of service we offer.
We aim to resolve and respond to all complaints within 10 working days. Response time may vary during busy periods.
Make a complaint

- and please keep us in touch with how things go!

 

[SuspectUsual]

To try and deal with the immediate problem:

- make sure that what your father has been given is, indeed, a penalty fare. The thing is, there are all sorts of bits of paper that the railway issues to passengers and it's easy for any of us to get confused over quite what's happening!
- assuming it is a penalty fare, then there are instructions on how to appeal about two thirds of the way down https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares:

- when your father appeals, it's important to separate the appeal from any complaint that he might want to make about the conduct of Northern's staff. So by all means explain everything in your first post, and @Class800 's first three points - but be aware that all that the penalty fare appeals process can do is sort out the penalty fare. So by all means tell the penalty fare appeal that your father is making a complaint - but the complaint will have to be made separately
- along with (I think) everyone here, I also think that your father should complain about the way Northern treated him. Northern's website says this at https://help.northernrailway.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/360006093978:



- and please keep us in touch with how things go!

He should also complain to TPE that the booked assistance wasn't provided

 

[Class800]

Let me introduce you to something called employment law.

Which includes a concept of gross misconduct, which can lead to instant dismissal under many contracts. We are digressing however

 

[gray1404]

Delay repay is also available here from tpe as he was unable to board his train

 

[Class800]

He should also complain to TPE that the booked assistance wasn't provided

Would not disagree - but there were staff availability issues

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

Delay repay is also available here from tpe as he was unable to board his train

If he was delayed as a consequence in his overall journey

 

[Unjustcarer]

Thank you for all the help people. I will be visiting my father in the next day or two to help him make an appeal. He is also a bit shaken up that the PF inspector went through his wheelchair to find the ticket. In the past the ticket was checked before boarding the train due to poor mobility issues. I understand the need to check revenue but it's a bit intrusive. My father is also worried he will end up with a huge fine if the appeal is unsuccessful which he can not afford.

 

[gray1404]

Once an appeal has been lodged, even if their appeal is not upheld, the train company is then under the regulations statute barred from taking the matter anywhere near a criminal Court.

It is worth noting though there is the opportunity to appeal three times. It is only at the third appeal doesn't independent panel actually look at it so it is worth appealing 3 times of the first two are unsuccessful.

Could I please suggest that you posted a copy of the draft of your appeal on here for us to have a look at first. When you appeal it is important to appeal against aspects of the regulations that have not been followed so it is definitely worth people here being able to have a look at it before sending.

 

[furlong]

Someone ought to refer the company's press office to this thread asap, to give the company a chance to mitigate any potential negative reputational fall out by offering the person concerned an apology and immediate generous financial settlement if the claims check out.

 

[matt_world2004]

Your father or someone on their behalf needs to make a subject access request for the CCTV at the originating station and or the train he boarded as soon as possible

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for all the help people. I will be visiting my father in the next day or two to help him make an appeal. He is also a bit shaken up that the PF inspector went through his wheelchair to find the ticket. In the past the ticket was checked before boarding the train due to poor mobility issues. I understand the need to check revenue but it's a bit intrusive. My father is also worried he will end up with a huge fine if the appeal is unsuccessful which he can not afford.

1) Might be of help if you are assisting your father with the Appeal to post a draft of your text here for people to suggest amends etc. as this is the most immediate issue.

2) I think also worth writing to the train company(s) customer services ASAP - station what happened, saying eg 'as a consequence of this I have ended up with a Penalty Fare though no fault of my own - please can you intervene to help me resolve this' - they may not be able to intervene when a formal Appeal is underway, but they might - and flagging it now whilst this is fresh (even if a formal appeal is being lodged, which is vital IMHO) can't in my view do any harm. Again post a draft for comment / input if you wish. Also I would send a CC of this message to your dad's MP as suggested up thread - possibly with a covering note saying 'I would welcome your help as my MP in getting this resolved promptly if you are able to assist' - a good MP will probably raise it with the TOC's CEO which could result in swift action.

3) Whilst I fully endorse the wider criticisms of the staff concerned made in some posts in this thread - I think we need to focus on practical help for the OP getting this resolved - by which I mean robust and good Appeal submitted that will be upheld, Penalty withdrawn, apology from Train company and compensation for inconvenience caused etc.

I am sure we can help the OP with the various steps here.

 

[Class800]

1) Might be of help if you are assisting your father with the Appeal to post a draft of your text here for people to suggest amends etc. as this is the most immediate issue.

2) I think also worth writing to the train company(s) customer services ASAP - station what happened, saying eg 'as a consequence of this I have ended up with a Penalty Fare though no fault of my own - please can you intervene to help me resolve this' - they may not be able to intervene when a formal Appeal is underway, but they might - and flagging it now whilst this is fresh (even if a formal appeal is being lodged, which is vital IMHO) can't in my view do any harm. Again post a draft for comment / input if you wish.

3) Whilst I fully endorse the wider criticisms of the staff concerned made in some posts in this thread - I think we need to focus on practical help for the OP getting this resolved - by which I mean robust and good Appeal submitted that will be upheld, Penalty withdrawn, apology from Train company etc.

I am sure we can help the OP with the various steps here.

To which I would add asking for compensation and a full investigation - but the order is correct, address the Penalty Fare first

 

[WesternLancer]

To which I would add asking for compensation and a full investigation - but the order is correct, address the Penalty Fare first

Yes, indeed, thanks - I have edited to add that!

 

[AlterEgo]

Which includes a concept of gross misconduct, which can lead to instant dismissal under many contracts. We are digressing however

A company cannot dismiss someone instantly for gross misconduct without suspension and investigation, and a hearing, or deny them the right to lodge a grievance or appeal.

Your father or someone on their behalf needs to make a subject access request for the CCTV at the originating station and or the train he boarded as soon as possible

Yes, agreed. This can be done by completing the form here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/NR-Subject-Access-Request-Form.pdf

Thank you for all the help people. I will be visiting my father in the next day or two to help him make an appeal. He is also a bit shaken up that the PF inspector went through his wheelchair to find the ticket. In the past the ticket was checked before boarding the train due to poor mobility issues. I understand the need to check revenue but it's a bit intrusive. My father is also worried he will end up with a huge fine if the appeal is unsuccessful which he can not afford.

I suspect the guard is not allowed to simply rifle through a person's wheelchair without invitation. Others may be able to offer advice more specific than this, but a wheelchair is in effect an extension of a disabled person and this is akin to dipping your hand into someone's pocket.

 

[Edsmith]

Appalling, especially going through his belongings. If this doesn't warrant instant dismissal then I don't know what does?

 

[WesternLancer]

Appalling, especially going through his belongings. If this doesn't warrant instant dismissal then I don't know what does?

Lets not get distracted into that question at this stage and focus on what the OP needs help with.

 

[Class800]

Where I work has a summary dismissal policy for gross misconduct - it may differ from employer and employer, and it is a digression. The OP can ask for a thorough investigation of the RPI's actions under the Equality Act and relevant company policies

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

Appalling, especially going through his belongings. If this doesn't warrant instant dismissal then I don't know what does?

Punching him?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the guard is not allowed to simply rifle through a person's wheelchair without invitation. Others may be able to offer advice more specific than this, but a wheelchair is in effect an extension of a disabled person and this is akin to dipping your hand into someone's pocket.

It is, but if consent is given? Could he genuinely have felt that "it's in my wheelchair pocket" meant "can you grab it out of my wheelchair pocket, please?" We weren't there and don't know what was said.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is, but if consent is given? Could he genuinely have felt that "it's in my wheelchair pocket" meant "can you grab it out of my wheelchair pocket, please?" We weren't there and don't know what was said.

If consent is given that is different, hence my qualifier "without invitation".

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hello everyone.

My disabled autistic wheelchair bound father has received a penalty fare yesterday from Northern rail despite buying a ticket, i was hoping to appeal it but would like some advice.

My father is 86 and wheelchair bound with limited mobility due to various health problems.

He booked passenger assistance to travel from Liverpool Lime Street station to travel to Manchester Piccadily.

His friend helped him into the station where he was meant to get passanger assistance but the staff was late and his friend had to leave due to work commitments.

Eventually a member of TPE ( i think TPE) staff turned up and helped my father buy a TPE only ticket to Manchester which he placed into the back compartment of my fathers wheelchair. He then took my father down to the platform but the train was too full to fit the wheelchair on. The staff member apologised and instead put my father onto a Northern train instead going to Manchester (knowing he held a TPE only ticket).

At Huyton penalty fare officers joined the train and asked to see his ticket. My father explained he could not access his ticket as it was in the back on the wheelchair. The PF officer apparently smirked and went through my fathers wheelchair without his permission before finding the ticket and telling him he was a fare evader and this ticket was not valid as it was TPE only. My father tried to explain what had happened but had no luck and the PF officer proceeded to tell him he was going to prison unless he gave his details. My father is not happy.

I am shocked as to what has happened here and would like to know if there js anyway to appeal this as it seems wrong....

Disgusting behaviour by the staff. Beyond appalling treatment of a disabled and elderly person.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If consent is given that is different, hence my qualifier "without invitation".

I suppose the issue is that the RPI probably felt he had been invited, but in fact had not.

However, showing one's ticket is mandatory on request, so the time to prevent that would have been on being boarded, by asking for it to be given back. Otherwise you're effectively in "refusal to produce" territory, and in that case issue of a PF (or writing up for prosecution) would be correct. Having a disability does not excuse one from producing one's ticket.