Speculation: Services which don't exist yet but likely to in future

[JonathanH]

I thought it was a route like that. KCC are proposing the extension of Reading - Gatwick Airport services to Canterbury West at least, via Redhill, Tonbridge and Ashford Intl (from what I'm aware, the only northbound Kent service excluding Thameslink that doesn't terminate in London)

Somewhat pointless when it is quicker to go via London as passengers would still need to change at Reading.

The railway is unlikely to be losing out on significant business by forcing passengers to take routes via London. It may be losing some but not enough to fill a train.

I'm not sure that extending a Reading to Gatwick service to Kent is realling going to work either.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Colne to Manchester
Bradford to Sheffield
Liverpool to the south west and south coast
Bradford to Manchester Airport
Leicester to anywhere north of Sheffield
Castleford to York
Nottingham to Glasgow via S&C

There have been occasional Man Victoria to Colne services over the years, The last one I remember was about 16 years ago at around 17.00. It lasted for a few months then vanished.

 

[TheBigD]

Just going over the Network Rail Long Distance Market Study (a bit old, from 2013), and the flows that are recommended Conditional Outputs between Principal Regional Centres (that currently do not have direct trains) are:

Cardiff-Leeds
Cardiff-Leicester
Cardiff-Sheffield
Edinburgh-Liverpool
Leeds-Leicester
Leicester-Liverpool
Leicester-Manchester


So any kind of long distance non-London Open Access service would have to try and hit as many of those as possible, without requiring infrastructure.

Best (crayon-y) shot would be a Cardiff-Gloucester-Cheltenham-Leicester-Sheffield-Leeds type service.

The above was posted by "Ianno87 in another thread...

Ideas for more services like Lumo on the UK rail network?

Ok what other rail services could be introduced using a similar model to Lumo Could Consider: Service patterns Frequency Rolling Stock Interior Prices

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Was the "Sussex Scot" ever normally operated via the Southern section of the WCML, or was it predominantly routed via Reading/Oxford?

After a quick Google search, this website looks very content-rich and will probably answer that question.

Thanks. A slightly clunky website that, but having referenced the normally 100% reliable (and invariably accurate) Dr. W. K. Pedia, this suggests routing via Reading and that the 'Sussex Scot' was operational between May 1988 and September 2002. Can't see it ever returning.

 

[Philip]

Manchester to Leicester via Nuneaton potentially, possibly joined to the Crewe-London LNWR service between Crewe and Nuneaton so that extra paths aren't needed on the WCML.

Preston-Bolton-Manchester-London as a skeletal service.

Blackpool to Sheffield via Chat Moss and Wigan once the Hope Valley line can take 4 trains per hour.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Manchester to Leicester via Nuneaton potentially, possibly joined to the Crewe-London LNWR service between Crewe and Nuneaton so that extra paths aren't needed on the WCML.

Preston-Bolton-Manchester-London as a skeletal service.

Blackpool to Sheffield via Chat Moss and Wigan once the Hope Valley line can take 4 trains per hour.

That is an awful idea as joining with LNWR would be a nightmare for punctuality

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why Blackpool to Sheffield? I was thinking Lincoln to Manchester for the 3rd express path

 

[Philip]

That is an awful idea as joining with LNWR would be a nightmare for punctuality

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why Blackpool to Sheffield? I was thinking Lincoln to Manchester for the 3rd express path

It could come from Lincoln, but running to Blackpool would fill a missing direct link from Sheffield and also restore the fast Manchester to Wigan service which is to be cut in December.

I'm not sure about Nuneaton but splitting and joining at Crewe shouldn't be a major problem if platform 1 is used, because it is out of the way.

 

[The Planner]

Manchester to Leicester via Nuneaton potentially, possibly joined to the Crewe-London LNWR service between Crewe and Nuneaton so that extra paths aren't needed on the WCML.

How is that working? A 350 dragging a diesel about, don't think so. How are you joining and splitting at Nuneaton, the layout doesnt allow it.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It could come from Lincoln, but running to Blackpool would fill a missing direct link from Sheffield and also restore the fast Manchester to Wigan service which is to be cut in December.

I'm not sure about Nuneaton but splitting and joining at Crewe shouldn't be a major problem if platform 1 is used, because it is out of the way.

But there is no reason for a Blackpool to Sheffield service??

The splitting and joining is an awful idea especially with a diesel with a 350.

 

[JonathanH]

It could come from Lincoln, but running to Blackpool would fill a missing direct link from Sheffield and also restore the fast Manchester to Wigan service which is to be cut in December.

It is only being cut because there isn't capacity for it so it can't be reintroduced just to be added to a Hope Valley service. Also, Blackpool is an electrified line now.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It is only being cut because there isn't capacity for it so it can't be reintroduced just to be added to a Hope Valley service. Also, Blackpool is an electrified line now.

Exactly clearly Philip doesn’t get why it was cut otherwise it would still be planned to be kept

 

[zwk500]

It could come from Lincoln, but running to Blackpool would fill a missing direct link from Sheffield and also restore the fast Manchester to Wigan service which is to be cut in December.

I'm not sure about Nuneaton but splitting and joining at Crewe shouldn't be a major problem if platform 1 is used, because it is out of the way.

Platform 1 is very heavily used by the terminating train from Manchester Airport and is also required for the Avanti services on the Up WCML. Ignoring the practicality, is the Manchester-Leicester market large enough to justify a through train, instead of just making a sensible interchange possible at Nuneaton (may need to wait until post-HS2).

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Platform 1 is very heavily used by the terminating train from Manchester Airport and is also required for the Avanti services on the Up WCML. Ignoring the practicality, is the Manchester-Leicester market large enough to justify a through train, instead of just making a sensible interchange possible at Nuneaton (may need to wait until post-HS2).

A good service to Leicester from Nuneaton would do well i think

 

[tbtc]

I think that, rather than focussing on re-openings, we should look at some of the service patterns that may happen in future years, e.g. when HS2 removes some existing services from other London termini, what will that free up that could go elsewhere - maybe the Leeds - Peterborough semi fast service will go to East Anglia rather than London, that kind of thing

One train a day from Leeds to Scarborough already passes through Castleford; is there no demand at all from Castleford to York, or is it just that, at least theoretically, changing at Leeds should be good enough?

There's probably some demand, but apparently not enough for a commercial minibus service, which is an indication that there might not be enough passengers for a train service

I think that a lot of enthusiasts can't cope with the idea of trains terminating (or reversing) rather than continuing on and on, and keep suggesting some kind of Manchester - Huddersfield - Castleford - York service (even though it'd be overtaken by at least a couple of other Manchester - Huddersfield - York services as they take the fast route through Leeds)

Both Bradford to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Wakefield weren't particularly taxing for a single 30m 142, so I don't expect Castleford to York to be very busy - the demand will always be for Leeds rather than for services that skirt around it

Have GWR ever mooted Bristol-Oxford? Would be a good service to stop at reopened Corsham/Wootton Bassett/Shrivenham/Wantage Road stations, if any end up being built, and I'm sure tourists would appreciate an easy Bath-Oxford train. Extend it to Bicester Village for bonus tourist points.

It seems every day is a school day!
I don't suppose you have any idea why the service was discontinued? I would imagine that if the railway is to cater better to leisure travel in the future, this is the sort of service that might be worth reinstating.

It was a train operated by short 90mph DMUs on the HST-dominated GWML at a time when Cardiff and Bristol only had one train per hour through Didcot to London

Cardiff and Bristol have both seen their services double (with the increase in Cheltenham services and the proposed "Temple Meads via Parkway" service meaning even more services through Swindon towards Didcot), so what do you cut to accommodate a Bristol - Oxford service?

why Blackpool to Sheffield? I was thinking Lincoln to Manchester

Why Lincoln to Manchester though?

Are we just randomly listing places some distance apart?

Blackpool used to have Sheffield services, back when the Peterborough - Stockport service was a bit more haphazard (some from Norwich/ Harwich/ Ipswich/ Stansted/ Cambridge... some via Grantham and some via Loughborough... some avoiding Sheffield... some to Cumbria/ Blackpool/ Liverpool) rather than the simple Norwich - Liverpool service we have every hour - I'm not saying it "deserves" one now, but some of the combinations of places on this thread feel a little random

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I think that, rather than focussing on re-openings, we should look at some of the service patterns that may happen in future years, e.g. when HS2 removes some existing services from other London termini, what will that free up that could go elsewhere - maybe the Leeds - Peterborough semi fast service will go to East Anglia rather than London, that kind of thing



There's probably some demand, but apparently not enough for a commercial minibus service, which is an indication that there might not be enough passengers for a train service

I think that a lot of enthusiasts can't cope with the idea of trains terminating (or reversing) rather than continuing on and on, and keep suggesting some kind of Manchester - Huddersfield - Castleford - York service (even though it'd be overtaken by at least a couple of other Manchester - Huddersfield - York services as they take the fast route through Leeds)

Both Bradford to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Wakefield weren't particularly taxing for a single 30m 142, so I don't expect Castleford to York to be very busy - the demand will always be for Leeds rather than for services that skirt around it


Lincoln to Manchester seems logical and the only destination to the east that i can




It was a train operated by short 90mph DMUs on the HST-dominated GWML at a time when Cardiff and Bristol only had one train per hour through Didcot to London

Cardiff and Bristol have both seen their services double (with the increase in Cheltenham services and the proposed "Temple Meads via Parkway" service meaning even more services through Swindon towards Didcot), so what do you cut to accommodate a Bristol - Oxford service?



Why Lincoln to Manchester though?

Are we just randomly listing places some distance apart?

Blackpool used to have Sheffield services, back when the Peterborough - Stockport service was a bit more haphazard (some from Norwich/ Harwich/ Ipswich/ Stansted/ Cambridge... some via Grantham and some via Loughborough... some avoiding Sheffield... some to Cumbria/ Blackpool/ Liverpool) rather than the simple Norwich - Liverpool service we have every hour - I'm not saying it "deserves" one now, but some of the combinations of places on this thread feel a little random

Lincoln doesnt have any direct trains and its the only destination east i can see potentially benefitting from a direct link. Where else is the 3rd path going to go

 

[Philip]

It is only being cut because there isn't capacity for it so it can't be reintroduced just to be added to a Hope Valley service. Also, Blackpool is an electrified line now.

I believe it was cut because they thought that the Cumbria service which currently runs over it was better returning to the Bolton route to reflect passenger demand on the Bolton and Chorley route.

 

[swt_passenger]

If you route the Salisbury trains via Eastleigh then you increase the journey time for passengers to Southampton Central. SWR are very keen to decrease journey times between Salisbury and Southampton. You'd also be left trying to tie the Fawley branch pattern into the gaps determined by the Romsey Rockets.

IIRC from one of the consultations Hants County Council didn’t want the service to run the long way round either.

 

[adrock1976]

IIRC from one of the consultations Hants County Council didn’t want the service to run the long way round either.

Regarding the Fawley branch, does the junction with the mainline face London or Weymouth?

If it faces London, would it be possible to send the Fawley trains to and from Portsmouth (Southsea or Harbour), thus providing an improved frequency at the stations between Southampton and Fareham/Cosham?

 

[JonathanH]

Regarding the Fawley branch, does the junction with the mainline face London or Weymouth?

If it faces London, would it be possible to send the Fawley trains to and from Portsmouth (Southsea or Harbour), thus providing an improved frequency at the stations between Southampton and Fareham/Cosham?

Not without paying for electrification of the Fawley line.

Extension of the existing Portsmouth stopper to Fawley wouldn't be bad from a stock utilisation perspective but there is an awkward incompatibility.

 

[swt_passenger]

Regarding the Fawley branch, does the junction with the mainline face London or Weymouth?

If it faces London, would it be possible to send the Fawley trains to and from Portsmouth (Southsea or Harbour), thus providing an improved frequency at the stations between Southampton and Fareham/Cosham?

It faces London, it basically joins the main line at Totton Yard. I think people assume it makes sense to link to Romsey because initially the new service introduced in 2003 to serve Chandlers Ford reversed in Totton Yard…

But as well as lack of electrification mentioned by @JonathanH I suspect there’s no space in the existing timetable for a second stopper between Southampton and Fareham, or further. The 2018 consultation was assuming an SWR fast service could be shoehorned into the timetable, but I think that’s no longer happening.

 

[fgwrich]

IIRC from one of the consultations Hants County Council didn’t want the service to run the long way round either.

Perhaps, pending the results from the Greenford Branch trial, it could be ideal for a 230 type set up? Though that of course leads to the next problem - If it isn't attached to the Salisbury 6, do you re-instate a bay platform at Southampton Central? It is theoretically possible, but would require additional track and signalling upgrading work which naturally adds to the £££.

 

[Philip]

But there is no reason for a Blackpool to Sheffield service??

The splitting and joining is an awful idea especially with a diesel with a 350.

I assumed Nuneaton to Leicester was an electrified line.

I think Manchester to Leicester justifies a direct service nonetheless; if the quicker route via the WCML isn't an option then as an extension of the EMR Liverpool-Nottingham service from December, which would also create a new direct service to Derby.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I assumed Nuneaton to Leicester was an electrified line.

I think Manchester to Leicester justifies a direct service nonetheless; if the quicker route via the WCML isn't an option then as an extension of the EMR Liverpool-Nottingham service from December, which would also create a new direct service to Derby.

No it would have to shuttle out of Nottingham AND DERBY? And that would make it slow and pointless

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it would be so slow you’d be better changing at Sheffield from Manchester to get a direct train to Leicester (heading for London)

 

[Philip]

No it would have to shuttle out of Nottingham AND DERBY? And that would make it slow and pointless

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it would be so slow you’d be better changing at Sheffield from Manchester to get a direct train to Leicester (heading for London)

Looking at the rail map, yes I agree, including Derby would involve too much reversing. However, Leicester via Nottingham direct from Manchester would be an advantage compared with having to change at Sheffield.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Looking at the rail map, yes I agree, including Derby would involve too much reversing. However, Leicester via Nottingham direct from Manchester would be an advantage compared with having to change at Sheffield.

it really isn’t worth it.

 

[zwk500]

I assumed Nuneaton to Leicester was an electrified line.

It's got a reasonable shout at some point in the reachable future but it certainly won't be soon.

I think Manchester to Leicester justifies a direct service nonetheless

Why? Or is this another 'I want services from my house to everywhere in the country'?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It's got a reasonable shout at some point in the reachable future but it certainly won't be soon.

Why? Or is this another 'I want services from my house to everywhere in the country'?

a decent connection at Sheffield would suffice i guarantee.

 

[Philip]

It's got a reasonable shout at some point in the reachable future but it certainly won't be soon.

Why? Or is this another 'I want services from my house to everywhere in the country'?

Both are fairly large cities and urban areas so there will be reasonable numbers of people making the complete journey both for leisure and commuting purposes.

The argument about changing at Sheffield being sufficient could be applied to a number of existing direct routes which have been created in the last 20 years; Shrewsbury to London can be done with a simple change at Wolverhampton or Birmingham, so why have London trains running through from Shrewsbury at all when the units could be utilized by strengthening the London-Birmingham-Scotland service?

 

[JonathanH]

I think Manchester to Leicester justifies a direct service nonetheless.

What suggests that? National Express don't see Manchester to Leicester as an untapped market for coaches and they aren't constrained by awkward junctions on the rail network. The road network (ie A50) allows for a coach to directly link Manchester and Leicester if there was untapped demand.

Shrewsbury to London can be done with a simple change at Wolverhampton or Birmingham, so why have London trains running through from Shrewsbury at all when the units could be utilized by strengthening the London-Birmingham-Scotland service?

How many Shrewsbury to London services are there a day? They are in marginal time at best.

 

[chorleyjeff]

There have been occasional Man Victoria to Colne services over the years, The last one I remember was about 16 years ago at around 17.00. It lasted for a few months then vanished.

There used to be Euston to Colne through carriages via Man Victoria. Must have been 60 years ago when I travelled from Vic to Bolton (change for Preston) after dark in an unlit unheated carriage behind a so slow Horwich Crab. Not much of a rosy glow of nostalgia for those days.

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Colne to Manchester
Bradford to Sheffield
Liverpool to the south west and south coast
Bradford to Manchester Airport
Leicester to anywhere north of Sheffield
Castleford to York
Nottingham to Glasgow via S&C

Re the last suggestion. Why not go back even further and run St Pancras to Glasgow and Edinburgh ( Thames Clyde and Thames Forth) for anybody with a day to spare ? Could even slow to a crawl over Ribblehead Viaduct to admire the views )